Hezbollah: take that

[geni]

Meanwhile, this interesting report:

• Four Israel Navy sailors were reported missing after an explosives-laden drone, apparently launched by Hezbollah, hit a naval vessel off the coast of Beirut Friday night.

Not the first time Iran has supplied Hezbollah with drones. Of course that assumes that Iran handed them over before firing.

Hmmmmmm, an aircraft loaded with explosives. It would follow reasonably that the HAMAS in Gaza also has a few of these puppies prepared and ready to launch against Tel Aviv skyscrapers during this current war.

They require a fair bit of skill to use. Hamas tend toward more primative weapons.

 

[webfusion]

Not the first time Iran has supplied Hezbollah with drones. Of course that assumes that Iran handed them over before firing.
They require a fair bit of skill to use. Hamas tend toward more primative weapons.

Skill? Don't make me laugh.
These things are outrageously simple to fly, my son can do it. He's 14.

Yeah, let's assume it was Iran. Are you now saying that you doubt Iran can provide the same weapon system to Hamas in gaza? Geni, with all due respect to your evaluation of this war scenario, that's totally not logical, under the known circumstances. All sorts of additional weapons and palestinian fighters (reinforcements) are pouring across from Egypt.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/738677.html
Palestinians forcibly open Egypt-Gaza border gate

 

[geni]

Skill? Don't make me laugh.
These things are outrageously simple to fly, my son can do it. He's 14.

14 year olds can do a lot. The things become more difficult to fly one you shove in enough explosives to have a decent effect.

Yeah, let's assume it was Iran. Are you now saying that you doubt Iran can provide the same weapon system to Hamas in gaza?

Where did I say that? I assume Iran could get it there. The problem is that they might have to get their own people to do the launching and other setup.

 

[webfusion]

14 year olds can do a lot. The things become more difficult to fly one you shove in enough explosives to have a decent effect.



Where did I say that? I assume Iran could get it there. The problem is that they might have to get their own people to do the launching and other setup.

It was a question to you geni, because when you said that HAMAS 'tends to primitive weapons' I thought you were indicating that they wouldn't be given the opportunity to fly these sophisticated UAV's against Israeli skyscrapers. So, I asked you to clarify your position. OK, so you've answered it by saying that you do assume Iran could get these large drones into gaza --- and I am pretty sure that the Iranians would have ZERO problem getting their technicians and their remote-pilots into gaza, especially now that the border from Sinai is completely broken-down (and it was fairly pourous anyway).

 

[Art Vandelay]

Other than china they tend to have first stike nuclear policies. So yes.

Cite? And that's not really a "military" operation.

Evidences?

The cause is the kidnappings.

Why should that work any better?

Because then it's their land, to do as they wish.

Hezbollah were formed in a country under occupation and started attacking the occupier.

Which is irrelevant to the issue of self-defense. If you attack me, and I pin you on the ground, and you shoot me, you can't claim "self-defense" simply because I had you pinned to the ground.

It ws the logical end point of his position.

No, it's not.

Strawman.

No, basic fact.

Perhaps but since it failed to prevent that there was little logic in expending the rescources to do so.

So if the terrorists keep up their attacks, that invalidates the justification of attacking the terrorists?

This is lebanon. The demographics are fundimental to understanding the place.

So are a lot of things, but that's not what we're discussing.

 

[Skeptic]

You know, geni, the problem with your entire outlook here is that it's all a "yes, but" sort of thing: yes, Hizbullah does want israel destroyed and a second holocaust, but it's just a secondary goal / it didn't exist before the israeli action in Lebanon / it has a civilian branch / etc., etc., etc.

What kind of excuse is that?

I mean, suppose someone accused the jews of trying to take over the world and subdue all gentiles to their will, a la "the Protocols of the Elders of Zion".

Suppose further that, the chief rabbi of israel and the head of the jewish theological seminary in New York issue a joint statement in reply, saying that, yes, of course, the jews are planning to take over the world, but it's just a secondary goal (after establishing a jewish-controlled government in the USA, of course), but this plan only came into existence after gentile prosecution of the jews, but that's the job of the jews' military wing and one must not ignore all the good educational and charitable activities jewish civilian wings do, but the jews will try to take over the world hurting as few gentile civilians as possible...

Wouldn't that be an utterly absurd "defense" against the accusation? Wouldn't it mean absolutely nothing in terms of the moral culpability for the nefarious plan in the first place?

Same here with your defense of Hizballah. "Yes, but..." explanations don't cut much ice when the "yes" in question is "Yes, they do want to destroy israel and kill the jews", do they?

 

[Skeptic]

Skill? Don't make me laugh.
These things are outrageously simple to fly, my son can do it. He's 14.

Never underestimate your enemy, webfusion. Seriously.

14 year olds can do a lot.

Such as strapping suicide belts on themselves and going to blow up jews, as Hamas trains them to do, or shooting AK-47s at jews, as the PLO trains them to do, etc., etc.

Of course, when 14-year-olds are hurt when fighting the IDF, intentionally (due to them participating in such actions) or (in 99% of the cases) unintentionally, they are suddenly innocent children who cannot do anything and it's the IDF "targeting innocent civlians" again.

 

[Skeptic]

So if the terrorists keep up their attacks, that invalidates the justification of attacking the terrorists?

The "root causers" who will not fight back lest that anger the enemy are using the same logic every battered woman can appreciate. If she complains to the police and her husbad beats her harder in revenge, well, that just proves the futility and stupidity of her complaining, doesn't it?

 

[gumboot]

Stupid question...

I am a little confused about the relationship between Lebanon, Hezbollah, and Syria. It doesn't seem as simple as Hezbollah = Lebanon. So are the IDF action s against Hezbollah? Or are they against Lebanon?

-Andrew

 

[RandFan]

Same here with your defense of Hizballah. "Yes, but..." explanations don't cut much ice when the "yes" in question is "Yes, they do want to destroy israel and kill the jews", do they?

Sorry Skeptic, I'm not trying to simply agree with you in lieu of offering my own opinion it's just that I think you nailed it.

 

[a_unique_person]

Stupid question...

I am a little confused about the relationship between Lebanon, Hezbollah, and Syria. It doesn't seem as simple as Hezbollah = Lebanon. So are the IDF action s against Hezbollah? Or are they against Lebanon?

-Andrew

An excellent question. Despite Jocko's claim that these are actions against 'military' targets, the majority appear to have killed and harmed civilians. If Israel is trying to turn Lebanese in general against it, it is doing a good job. Apparently, many were initially p**** of at Hezbollah for stirring things up. No, who knows?

 

[Skeptic]

An excellent question. Despite Jocko's claim that these are actions against 'military' targets, the majority appear to have killed and harmed civilians.

This might have something to do with the fact that Hizbullah deliberately and cynically puts its military headquarters, training bases, etc., smack in the middle of civlian neighborhoods, villages, etc.

If Israel is trying to turn Lebanese in general against it, it is doing a good job. Apparently, many were initially p**** of at Hezbollah for stirring things up. No, who knows?

So your sources actually say the Lebanese are getting p***ed at Hizbullah, not at israel, but you somehow still manage to conclude from that that israel "is doing a good job" of turning the Lebanese against it.



Go figure.

 

[zenith-nadir]

I am a little confused about the relationship between Lebanon, Hezbollah, and Syria.

Hezbollah is a collection of radical Islamic Shiite groups - see: Islamic Jihad, etc. Hezbollah opposes the West - like all good radical Islamic terror organizations - and it seeks to create a Muslim fundamentalist state modeled on Iran in place of Lebanon where they can subjugate their women and generally live like the 10th century.

Hezbollah is supported financially and with weaponry by Syria and Iran. It also holds twenty-three seats in 128-member Lebanese Parliament.

It doesn't seem as simple as Hezbollah = Lebanon. So are the IDF action s against Hezbollah? Or are they against Lebanon?

-Andrew

Well that's the tightrope some folks are trying to walk to distance the Lebanese government from Hezbollah. But you tell me gumboot, if Hezbollah holds twenty-three seats in 128-member Lebanese Parliament isn't Hezbollah part of the Lebanese government? It sure is in my books.

Much like the Palestinian Authority and the actions of Hamas, if the Lebanese government cannot and will not control Hezbollah then unfortunately Lebanon will suffer from the actions of Hezbollah...such as attacking the next door neighbor with Iranian rockets and kidnapping their soldiers.

{edited to add}

Reuters - 29 July 2005 - arabnews.com

BEIRUT, 29 July 2005 — Lebanon’s new government defended the right of Hezbollah guerrillas to resist Israel and pledged solid ties with Syria yesterday...

Siniora said the government would defend Lebanon’s right to resistance, a term usually used for pro-Syrian Hizbollah, which helped end Israel’s 22-year occupation of the south in 2000.

“The government considers the resistance a natural and honest expression of the Lebanese people’s national rights to liberate their land and defend their honor against Israeli aggression and threats,” he told Parliament.

(emphasis all mine)

Now that Israel has opened a big can of woopass on Lebanon because of Hezbollah's "natural and honest expressions", Prime Minister Fouad Siniora tune is 180 degrees from what he defended a year ago. A lesson in Middle East politics for all JREFers.

 

[geni]

Cite?

Well the US to start with:

http://www.larouchepub.com/other/2005/3221conplan_8022.html

But it is hardly a big secret.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_strike

And that's not really a "military" operation.

Huh?

The cause is the kidnappings.

Oh dear now who is trying to understqand the underlineing cause and all that

I think you will find an autopsy will show the signs of Israeli weaponary.

Because then it's their land, to do as they wish.

No that fails to explaine why it should work any better

Which is irrelevant to the issue of self-defense. If you attack me, and I pin you on the ground, and you shoot me, you can't claim "self-defense" simply because I had you pinned to the ground.

The problem is that lebanon didn't attack. The attacking was done by a forien group call the PLO. You may have heard of it.

No, it's not.

Justification for that claim?

No, basic fact.

You lie. Well either that or you have very poor reading comprihension skills.

So if the terrorists keep up their attacks, that invalidates the justification of attacking the terrorists?

It suggests that the method you are useing may be less that optimium.

So are a lot of things, but that's not what we're discussing.

The action is takeing place to a large degree in lebanon. Logicaly an attempt should be made to understand lebanon.

 

[geni]

I mean, suppose someone accused the jews of trying to take over the world and subdue all gentiles to their will, a la "the Protocols of the Elders of Zion".

You like makeing appeals to emotion don't you?

 

[a_unique_person]

This might have something to do with the fact that Hizbullah deliberately and cynically puts its military headquarters, training bases, etc., smack in the middle of civlian neighborhoods, villages, etc.



So your sources actually say the Lebanese are getting p***ed at Hizbullah, not at israel, but you somehow still manage to conclude from that that israel "is doing a good job" of turning the Lebanese against it.



Go figure.

You missed the bombing in many civilian areas, civilian infrastructure and the airport. This is in areas that are outside the Hezbollah parts of Lebanon. So yes, the Lebanese might end up p**** off with Israel as well.

 

[WildCat]

You missed the bombing in many civilian areas, civilian infrastructure and the airport. This is in areas that are outside the Hezbollah parts of Lebanon. So yes, the Lebanese might end up p**** off with Israel as well.

The bombing of the airport and infrastructure is in order to prevent Hezbollah from moving the kidnapped soldiers to Iran, which they have threatened to do, and also to prevent them from being resupplied w/ arms from Syria.

 

[zenith-nadir]

You missed the bombing in many civilian areas...

You should know by now a_u_p that Hamas, Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad, the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, etc... all use civilian areas for bases of operation, cover and concealment. That fact is almost as old as the dead sea scrolls.

 

[geni]

Such as strapping suicide belts on themselves and going to blow up jews, as Hamas trains them to do, or shooting AK-47s at jews, as the PLO trains them to do, etc., etc.

Or the second overthrow of Milton Obote. Remeber if you are going to try to use massacres kill the 14 year olds as well.

 

[a_unique_person]

The bombing of the airport and infrastructure is in order to prevent Hezbollah from moving the kidnapped soldiers to Iran, which they have threatened to do, and also to prevent them from being resupplied w/ arms from Syria.

There are plenty of back roads, apparently. If they were serious about taking the soldiers to Syria, that wouldn't stop them.

According to CNN

An Israeli airstrike hit a minibus Saturday carrying 20 civilians, killing at least 15 of them, Lebanese internal security sources said.The strike came as Israel extended its military campaign in Lebanon, launched after the capture of two soldiers by Hezbollah guerrillas on Wednesday, and amid fears the conflict will spread in the Middle East.
Hezbollah militants kept up their attacks from southern Lebanon on Saturday, firing Katyusha rockets into northern Israel.
Including the deaths on the minibus hit on the coastal road between Shamaa and Bayada, at least 80 Lebanese civilians and two Lebanese Army soldiers have been killed and 209 have been wounded since Wednesday, according to the security forces.

It doesn't look good, either way, does it? If Hezbollah hoped to goad Israel into overreacting, it has done a good job.

The effort to free two soldiers has resulted in the situation flaring up, so that Israeli civilians are dead. I don't see why such an effort is being made to free them, when such a task is going to probably end in failure. Reminds me of black hawk down. Better off to cut your losses.