Hezbollah: take that

[geni]

Anyone who offered that choice would, ipso facto, be morally inexcusable. It's an interesting thought exercise if you ignore real world limitations and consequences, but the fact of the matter is that this conflict has its root in mindless agression against an Israel that had already withdrawn six years ago.

Oh dear I thought looking for root causes was unpopular around here.

That must mean something to even you, who refuses to see that Hezbollah is dedicated to the destruction of the state of Israel, as stated in their 1985 platform.

The problem with that is that as far as Hezbollah is concernded Israel have not withdrawn. That whole Shebaa Farms thing. Hezbollah think they belong to it. Most of the world thinks that they belong to Syria. Syria thinks lebanon belongs to Syria. Israel hasn't withdrawn. The UN is waiting for Syria to make a firm statement on the issue.

 

[Polaris]

Furthermore, if this engagement between Israel and Hezbollah attracts other Arab nations, such as Syria and Iran...

Iran's not an Arab country. Sorry

 

[zenith-nadir]

The leaders of Hamas and Hezbollah are using Arafat's Fatah 101 strategy. They know they cannot possibly beat Israel in a straight fight but if they egg Israel on enough - see: firing rockets & hostage taking - they can use the Israeli response to polarize the Arab street against "the zionists". The strategy is nearly as old as I am.

That is why the Palestinian Authority and the Lebanese government need to disarm and dismantle Hamas and Hezbollah. To save their constituents from the eeeeeeeevil "Israeli aggression". But since the PA is Hamas, and Hezbollah is part of the Lebanese government...

 

[Mycroft]

This is irrelivant to the point I was makeing.

Which was what, exactly? That you had to resort to fantasy to find an example where Skeptic's statement would be wrong?

Well, okay. If invisible fairies have built microscopic civilizations of billions of beings on the dust motes in my home, it would be morally reprehensible for me to run my vacuum cleaner. So what? Have I proven anything with such fantasy? No.

The issue is Hezbollah. Their stated goal is the destruction of Israel. There is no hypothetical fantasy where that is the lesser of two evils.

 

[Azrael 5]

I'm way out of my depth here,as I know sod all about Middle Eastern history;but Im curious to know what the U.S- or Iran maybe-would do should Israel use a nuclear weapon! They have renowned itchy trigger fingers(first Gulf War)and seem barmy enough to do it.
I for one pray they don't.Maybe Hezbollah could quietly give the soldiers back and tiptoe away ..

 

[Rob Lister]

I for one pray they don't.Maybe Hezbollah could quietly give the soldiers back and tiptoe away ..

And I for another [would] pray they don't [were I one to pray]. This is ******** that has gone on long enough. It is way, way past time for a resolution. Israel's hand has been stayed far, far too long. The longer their hand gets stayed, the worse the situation gets. Eventually it will get so out of hand that no country, not even the U.S. will be able to stop a full-scale nuclear war.

Best to solve it now.

And now for a "yes, but" word from Geni.

 

[fuelair]

Ah why? Mass targeting of civilians has historicaly been quite a popular militry tactic. On the other hand Hezbollah have tended to target mitilitry stuff such as the SLA.

So you agree with those brave Hezbulsht hiding among civilians as a marvel of military procedure. What a shame the British Army is so cowardly as to not hide among civilians instead of wearing clear uniforms,etc. (And the U. S., and the Israeli, etc.)

You do know that the Israelis have no choice (other than not fight back against murderous thugs ) than to fire on the places the Hezbulsht hide and cower since they don't have the guts to have camps/forts ,etc. where they can be blasted out and exterminated for the swine they are - without harm to possibly innocent civilians, I hope.

 

[Jocko]

Oh dear I thought looking for root causes was unpopular around here.

So sue the hell out of me for thinking that events from 2000 are a tad more relevant that French colonialism. I'm kooky that way.

While you're on about your rather unique take on root causes, I'd like you to explain Britain's role in Detroit's alarming crime rate. We are a former colony, after all, so that should reveal all, right?

The problem with that is that as far as Hezbollah is concernded Israel have not withdrawn. That whole Shebaa Farms thing. Hezbollah think they belong to it. Most of the world thinks that they belong to Syria. Syria thinks lebanon belongs to Syria. Israel hasn't withdrawn. The UN is waiting for Syria to make a firm statement on the issue.

No, the problem is that Hezbollah has sworn Israel's destruction. Differing opinions on borders don't ipso facto mean armed conflict - THREATENED GENOCIDE DOES. Your excuses are silly to the extreme.

Hezbollah is now getting a taste of what it feels like to have someone out there thirsting for your blood. I'll bet they think it sucks.

 

[a_unique_person]

Hmmm. About 10/year. Out of 2000. 0.5% each year. Looks like members are less likely to die than the general population.

ETA: This is in reference to UNIFL.

Art, that is fallacious reasoning. If you want, I can explain it to you, but you should be able to work it out yourself.

 

[Elind]

Lebanon=A country set up by france with the theory that the Druze would always have a majority and therefor be able to run it. Due to differing birth rates things didn't quite turn out like that.

Does anyone ever wonder why that latter sentence is the dominant factor? Is it because virility runs stronger in Shiite men (thanks to Allah), fertility run stronger in Shiite women (thanks to Allah), or because Shiites don't know about synthetic rubber or because they don't give a donkey's ass about children's futures?

 

[DanishDynamite]

Does anyone ever wonder why that latter sentence is the dominant factor? Is it because virility runs stronger in Shiite men (thanks to Allah), fertility run stronger in Shiite women (thanks to Allah), or because Shiites don't know about synthetic rubber or because they don't give a donkey's ass about children's futures?

Doesn't matter. The fact is they are winning in the only race that counts.

 

[Mycroft]

Art, that is fallacious reasoning. If you want, I can explain it to you, but you should be able to work it out yourself.

It's a very low death rate, it's not fallacious that way.

 

[Skeptic]

In a situtation where you had a choice between a second holocaust and the destruction of the rest of the human race I think the second holocaust would be considered morally excusable.

Not necessarily. Perhaps so, if an alien from outer space suddenly arrived and force you to choose one or the other.

But what if the entire world simply attacked israel with genocidal intention and made it clear to it to the only way to stop the attack is to kill it in retaliation? In that case, israel would certainly be morally justified in killing the entire world.

The morally correct side isn't determine by the number of dead; otherwise Germany would be the morally just side in WWII, for example; or, to give an hypothetical, if two people came to you and made it quite clear that unless you killed yourself in five minutes, they'd both commit suicide, you'd be morally obliged to kill yourself.

In reality, of course, you would have every moral right to tell them to go fug themselves.

 

[Skeptic]

Oh dear I thought looking for root causes was unpopular around here.

Er, the "root cause" claim is that Hizbullah wants to genocide the jews (but only as a secondary goal of its military wing after it establishes an Islamic theocracy in Lebanon, so that's all right) because israel is in Lebanon.

Pointing out that israel has not been in Lebanon these last five years and Hizbullah still attacks jews--usually under some other excuse--refutes the "root cause" claim, not support it.

 

[geni]

Which was what, exactly? That you had to resort to fantasy to find an example where Skeptic's statement would be wrong?

I applied the falsificationism method to it and used the standard technique of applying exteream values to the theory to see if it broke down.

 

[geni]

So sue the hell out of me for thinking that events from 2000 are a tad more relevant that French colonialism. I'm kooky that way.

While you're on about your rather unique take on root causes, I'd like you to explain Britain's role in Detroit's alarming crime rate. We are a former colony, after all, so that should reveal all, right?

Britain only had Detroit for 6 years. Before that it was french.

No, the problem is that Hezbollah has sworn Israel's destruction. Differing opinions on borders don't ipso facto mean armed conflict

However they often result in that.

- THREATENED GENOCIDE DOES.

Strangely no. Historicaly theatened genocide has generaly resulted in people running away or being killed.

Hezbollah is now getting a taste of what it feels like to have someone out there thirsting for your blood. I'll bet they think it sucks.

They are shia. They have the whole martdom thing down perfectly. The shia are the ones that lost in the early islamic splits. Husayn ibn Ali did the whole "glourious" sucidal charge thing and the shia picked up on that and built it into their faith.

 

[geni]

Does anyone ever wonder why that latter sentence is the dominant factor? Is it because virility runs stronger in Shiite men (thanks to Allah), fertility run stronger in Shiite women (thanks to Allah), or because Shiites don't know about synthetic rubber or because they don't give a donkey's ass about children's futures?

Multiple wives. It basicaly garentees that every woman is going to have kids even if you have a fair number of you men killed in battle.

 

[geni]

But what if the entire world simply attacked israel with genocidal intention and made it clear to it to the only way to stop the attack is to kill it in retaliation? In that case, israel would certainly be morally justified in killing the entire world.

If it we are narrowing it down to Israel coming up with situations where it could be argued that wiping it out is legit is a lot less complex.

The morally correct side isn't determine by the number of dead; otherwise Germany would be the morally just side in WWII, for example;

No the allies lost more people.

 

[Skeptic]

If it we are narrowing it down to Israel coming up with situations where it could be argued that wiping it out is legit is a lot less complex.

Of course it's less complex--for the likes of you...

 

[Jocko]

Britain only had Detroit for 6 years. Before that it was french.

...Aaaaaaaaaaaand another missed point. Ah well. Seems be a bad case of hyperliteralism going around these days.

However they often result in that.

And often they don't. Since even you concede that border disputes don't always have to wind up in armed conflict, that effectively demolished your argument that Hezbollah is under the impression that Israel hasn't withdrawn.

By your own admission, you cocede that they choose to kill. Just as Israel has chosen to kill in repsonse. Now that we've gotten that little excuse out of the way, let's see what else you have.

Strangely no. Historicaly theatened genocide has generaly resulted in people running away or being killed.

Is that what you think should happen? If not, how on earth is this relevant?

They are shia. They have the whole martdom thing down perfectly. The shia are the ones that lost in the early islamic splits. Husayn ibn Ali did the whole "glourious" sucidal charge thing and the shia picked up on that and built it into their faith.

You seem very comrfortable with overgeneralizations today, but hey, let's go with it. Let's look at an "overgeneralized" summary of the comabatants:

1. Israelis who don't want to die.
2. Hezbollah members who do want to die.

Seems like there's one solution to both goals, and it's taking place as we speak. So I guess I have to ask, what's your problem with it? Civilian losses? Maybe you should amend your description to read, They have the whole martdom[sic] thing down perfectly and want to share their holiness with their neighbors by hiding among women and children when allah calls them home.