Hezbollah: take that

[geni]

When your territory is invaded, you soldiers killed, your citizens taken hostage and your cities peppered by random rocket fire, there sure ISN'T a difference.

Yes there is. It would be logical to kill the rats yourself. It would not be logical to attack the guy in the house.

So it's all Israel's fault that Lebanon can't control her own rogue elements, LONG BEFORE THIS OPERATION.

No that one is mostly France's fault. They failed to do much in the way of forward thinking wrt population demographics.

I take it back, Geni, that IS the statement of an apologist.

But it isn't my statement

 

[Jocko]

Where did Hezbollah call for the extermination of Israel? More importantly when did Hezbollah claim to have any intention of doing that themselves.

Right here.

According to its 1985 platform, Hezbollah advocates the establishment of an "Islamic Republic" in Lebanon. It also states: "The conflict with Israel is viewed as a central concern. This is not only limited to the IDF presence in Lebanon. Rather, the complete destruction of the State of Israel and the establishment of Islamic rule over Jerusalem is an expressed goal."

I'm sure I can dig up the original reference within this source if you don't like the bias. Just let me know.

EDITED TO ADD: It's also found on Wiki.

The weapons listed are far more useful when it comes to attacking militry target rather than civilian ones.

That's not what I asked. I asked what makes you think they would suddenly observe rules of conflict they have zealously rejected? Besides, I think a JDAM could kill more in a mall than in a command post. If you think otherwise, please elaborate.

 

[Skeptic]

Hezbollah= a Lebanese Islamist group, with a military arm and a civilian arm,

Weeeeelllllll, technically correct, but that sort of ignores that the so-called "civilian arm" are in reality merely the higher-up bosses of the "mlitary arm".

founded in 1982 to fight the Israeli occupation of southern Lebanon.

...in order to replace it with a Syrian/Iranian occupation.

 

[Skeptic]

On the other hand Hezbollah have tended to target mitilitry stuff such as the SLA.

Weeeeeellllllllllllllll, if you ignore them firing kayusha rockets at israeli towns every time they get pi**ed about some israeli action (I'm not talking about this week, I'm talking about the last, oh, fifteen years.)

 

[Skeptic]

Maybe Hezbollah doesn't care if their fellow citizens die.

'Maybe'?

 

[Jocko]

Yes there is. It would be logical to kill the rats yourself. It would not be logical to attack the guy in the house.

Only if you're resigned to an unlimited onslaught of rats.

Rats that target the innocent.
Rats dedicated to pulling down your house.
Rats who delight in extortion and murder.

See, Geni, the point of the analogy is to correlate the players in the equation, not to replace them. These are not rats, these are murderers bent on the death of Israel.

In this case, your "neighbor" has to do something about it. He can't or won't, but you know one thing - burning down his house to kill all the rats at once can save your house, your family.

No that one is mostly France's fault. They failed to do much in the way of forward thinking wrt population demographics.

Geni, are you saying nothing significant has changed in the chain of responsibility since the French were involved? Loathe though I am to exonorate the French, I think there are adults runnning Lebanon who are capable to directing their own lives.

But it isn't my statement

Well, now that you've seen that Hezbollah IS dedicated to the destruction of Israel, and hopefully now know I wasn't literally talking about rats, perhaps you'll reconsider... because that IS what you were saying.

 

[Skeptic]

I'm sure that if they had them they would use them. They probably would stick to targeting mititery stuff at least as far as any army does that.

Well, I'm glad that you've established that Hizbullah would "probably" pick military targets. And the moon is "probably" made of green cheese, too.

 

[geni]

1) in whatever direction your border is moving (read: in whatever direction they run...or die...)

Never knew you were a fan of genocide.

2) Exceptions can be made on a case by case basis. That goes for muslims as well as christians. And if not, oh well.

I think the Maronites have a pretty good case. The evidence suggests they want to be left alone to run thier own affairs (it could be argued that they are logical allies of Israel because no one likes them either).

 

[Skeptic]

Geni, are you saying nothing significant has changed in the chain of responsibility since the French were involved? Loathe though I am to exonorate the French, I think there are adults runnning Lebanon who are capable to directing their own lives.

It's the usual "root causer" logic: note that Geni's definition of Hizbullah is a group dedicated to "ending the israeli occupation of Lebanon"--instead of, as their leaders constantly say and act towards, to destroying israel whether it's in or out of Lebanon. And Lebanon itself, for geni, is now "mostly the French's fault" (still, nobody who blames the French for something could be all bad...).

In other words, it's the usual attempt at "understanding the conflict" which ends up placing the the blame (a.k.a. the "root cause") for Hizbullah's terrorism on israel, France, shape-shifting aliens, Zeus the thunderer, or anybody else--as long as it isn't, er, Hizbullah itself. I mean, to think that Hizbullah is responsible for Hizbullah's actions is way too simplistic, isn't it?

 

[Jocko]

Never knew you were a fan of genocide.

No, Geni, "fans of genocide" live by creeds that include:

...the complete destruction of the State of Israel and the establishment of Islamic rule over Jerusalem...

See the difference? Any comment?

I think the Maronites have a pretty good case. The evidence suggests they want to be left alone to run thier own affairs (it could be argued that they are logical allies of Israel because no one likes them either).

You seem to look at this with the detachment of a hiring manager. It's quite puzzling.

Want to know who has a good case? Anyone who can put the most distance between himself and Hezbollah.

 

[AmateurScientist]

Rather than worry about long term damage to Lebanon's infrastructure, Israel needs to continue and even to tighten its blockade/siege of Lebanon. Eventually, Hezbollah will run out of weapons. More likely, after its citizens go long enough without food and electricity, the Lebanese government and the people will be pressured into forcing the guerillas to give up or face counterattacks from Lebanese citizens. Support for the guerillas will wane as hunger increases. When the Israelis capture the head guerillas, they will hang high, on television, for the whole world to see.

After it has secured the return of its captured soldiers and ensured that Hezbollah is disarmed, then Israel should send in a brigade or two of ground troops to occupy southern Lebanon for a very long time.

Besides putting a stop to the recent attacks on Israelis from afar, the long term message Israel's occupation might send to other Arab neighbors is don't ◊◊◊◊ with us. Unfortunately, Israel has been sending that message for 58 years, but several of its neighbors ignore it.

The US should strengthen its support for Israel and its continued existence, now and forever, and to condemn the Arab world's attempts to rid the world of Jews forever. All non-Muslims are infidels, of course, so we're next on their list to eliminate from the planet. It's just that they hate Jews more than gentiles, so they have their priorities.

The US and Israel should withdraw from the UN immediately. The UN has failed miserably at the task for which it was originally formed immediately after WWII -- to prevent armed conflict around the world. It has failed for 60 years, consistently. It is irrelevant and provides no benefit to either the US or Israel, and in fact has recently been nothing but a thorn in our sides. Time to give the UN the finger and to stop taking its phone calls.

AS

 

[Rob Lister]

Never knew you were a fan of genocide.



I think the Maronites have a pretty good case. The evidence suggests they want to be left alone to run thier own affairs (it could be argued that they are logical allies of Israel because no one likes them either).

1) I am unmoved. Those that took track and field in highschool should fare well. Try again for bonus points. IOW, five miles at a time doesn't equate to genocide or any other kind of 'cide, at least not until things get really tight because of continued attacks from the islamic business-end of that border and the continued moving of it. If the population on the rough-end of that border doesnt' eventually 'get it' then they deserve the Darwin award. I have no sympathy.

2) I too would like to be left to my own affairs. The IRS, ATF, FBI, CIA, VBPD and various other accronyms won't let me. Yet I'm good with that. Yields far more benefits than not.

 

[geni]

Right here.



I'm sure I can dig up the original reference within this source if you don't like the bias. Just let me know.

EDITED TO ADD: It's also found on Wiki.

Whichj cites an even worse source.Hezbollah don't seem to be planning to activly destroy Israel

That's not what I asked. I asked what makes you think they would suddenly observe rules of conflict they have zealously rejected? Besides, I think a JDAM could kill more in a mall than in a command post. If you think otherwise, please elaborate.

A command post can shoot back however. The leaders of Hezbollah are smart. the first thing you do worry about the enermies militry forces. Then you start killing civlians if that is your aim. If they had the abilty to fight a conventional war they would do so (of course if they mangaged to wipe out the IDF other matters would probably take care of themselves).

 

[geni]

Weeeeelllllll, technically correct, but that sort of ignores that the so-called "civilian arm" are in reality merely the higher-up bosses of the "mlitary arm".

They carry out a number of civilian activerties. While I assume they have a common leadership the civilian branch does exist.

...in order to replace it with a Syrian/Iranian occupation.

They don't see it like that they buy into the islamic revolution stuff.

 

[Skeptic]

Whichj cites an even worse source.Hezbollah don't seem to be planning to activly destroy Israel

So you admit Hizbullah's goal is to destroy israel, you're now merely saying that it doesn't seem--to you--that it is actively trying to do that now.

Good, we're getting somewhere, geni.

Now that you admitted Hizbullah's goal is israel's destruction, what follows form that proposition about what israel should do?

 

[geni]

Weeeeeellllllllllllllll, if you ignore them firing kayusha rockets at israeli towns every time they get pi**ed about some israeli action (I'm not talking about this week, I'm talking about the last, oh, fifteen years.)

15 years? They were under ocupation for most of that time.

 

[Skeptic]

They carry out a number of civilian activerties.

Such as, for instance, running educational television:

"During the Moslem holy month of Ramadan, especially when the daily fast ends and socializing begins, television viewing peaks in the Arab and other Moslem countries. Al-Manar, the Hebzollah television station in Lebanon, broadcast an anti-Semitic series called al-Shataat (The Diaspora). The program's theme was an elaboration of the anti-Semitic libel which states that the Jews want to take over the world through the destabilization of world order.

...

In 2001 and 2002 programs with anti-Semitic themes were broadcast during Ramadan and watched by millions of Moslems. In 2001 the Abu Dhabi television channel broadcast a series called Tales of Terrorism (Irhabiyyat) which featured anti-Semitic themes; for example Ariel Sharon, Israel's prime minister, was compared with Hitler and was depicted as enjoying killing Arab children and drinking their blood or using it to make matzoth at Passover (a classic anti-Semitic motif).

With this sort of--wholly typical, for Hizbullah--"civlian" and "educational" activities, geni, Hizbullah would count as a terrorist organization even if it didn't have a military branch out to kill as many jews as possible.

As far as Hizbullah is concerned, their "civlian activities" begin and end with what "educational" propaganda would maximize the number further recruits for military operations to kill jews.

But it's good to know that you don't think that this wonderful civilian organization has any active plans for destroying israel right now, though you admit that that's its ultimate goal and raison d'etre.

 

[geni]

Now that you admitted Hizbullah's goal is israel's destruction, what follows form that proposition about what israel should do?

Israel has a number of course of action open to it:

Genocide; Nuke southen lebanon.

Play the internal groups off against each other. Funnel weapons to the Druze (a fairly safe bet everyone hates them).

Move your civlians away from the boarder and fight artierly duel (I belive a version of this was popular alone the india pakistan boarder.

Withdraw from the Shebaa Farms area and watch Hezbollah and Syria try and sort it out (should keep them busy for a few years.

Weakening a goverment that Hezbollah doesn't like very much (it stands between them and their islamic revolution you know how it is) is not a logical solution.

 

[geni]

Well, I'm glad that you've established that Hizbullah would "probably" pick military targets. And the moon is "probably" made of green cheese, too.

Civilains are unlikely to kill you in the short term and Israel has so militry targets to chose from.

 

[Skeptic]

15 years? They were under ocupation for most of that time.

It didn't matter, though. They fired rockets on israeli civilians when israel was in Lebanon... AND they fired (and still fire) rockets at israeli civlians in the five years since israel left Lebanon. If anything, their sense of victory increased the number of rockets fired into israel after israel left Lebanon.

Anyway, whatever makes you think Hizbullah cares about Lebanon being "occupied" in the first place, Geni? They enthusiastically support Syria taking over the place, setting up a puppet government; they resist violently any attempt to form a democratic government which will not be a Syrain puppet, or which--heaven forbid--actually demand something from them.

Call me cynical, but if you fire rockets at jews both before AND after israeli left Lebanon, and, on the other hand, openly welcome one of the most opressive thugocracies in the world, Syria, to occupy your country, it's not "the occupation" that's making your lob rockets at israel--it's a desire to destroy israel.

Not that that's too hard to guess: just listen to what Nasrallah, or Hizbullah TV, or their papers, or the children they educated in their "civlian" classrooms, says to you about what Hizbullah's goal is. They, in their own words and actions, repeatedly, consistently, and continously say their goal is to destroy israel and that they will do anything they can to do that.

What more proof do you want, exactly, that that is their real goal?

You're like a defense lawyer whose client just stood up and court and shouted, "Yes! I killed the bastard! That's what I lived for! I'd do it again!", and he mumbles "But, your honor, you have to remember the late victim had occupied my client's home five years ago, and..."