Have you ever experienced a paranormal phenomenon?

[Skeptic Guy]

It's influenced by popular culture. Three hundred years ago, it would have been described as a demonic visitation or the work of witches. Since popular culture now runs around the world, it's not all that surprising that what people report is consistent with what is currently popular. Today, that effectively means .

Carl Sagan wrote something similar in his book, Demon Haunted World.

 

[Lonewulf]

JihadJane, does it really matter what you consider "paranormal" or not? You're claiming to do an ability that has yet to be demonstrated to be possible or even plausible by mainstream science.

If you can demonstrate it, why don't you? As far as I know, there's no disadvantage to demonstrating your ability, and making a contribution to the knowledge of the rest of the world is generally considered a good thing. And something like Remote Viewing really shouldn't be that difficult to demonstrate scientifically.

 

[sanguine]

I was answering the OP, which asked about experiences which the general public interpreted as alien abductions.

You know, I experienced sleep paralysis as a kid, and I must have been rigorously rational even then, because I felt it as "I'm awake, yet I can't move and I'm suffocating. Try to move, try to move, try to move...okay, now I'm moving, and now I'm breathing. Well, that was completely unpleasant."

After it happened a couple times, I figured it might be a medical condition and asked my pediatrician about it. He explained it was sleep paralysis and not a big deal.

No aliens, no old hag sitting on my chest stealing my breath,* etc. When I met people in college who talked about all the associated concepts (kidnapping, spirits, etc) I was really surprised.


*A cultural influence note here: My Korean friends who were raised with appropriate stories have seen the hag when they experienced sleep paralysis. I, on the other hand, saw nothing special, and just felt like I was suffocating, which was plenty obnoxious enough for me.

 

[JihadJane]

JihadJane, does it really matter what you consider "paranormal" or not? You're claiming to do an ability that has yet to be demonstrated to be possible or even plausible by mainstream science.

If you can demonstrate it, why don't you? As far as I know, there's no disadvantage to demonstrating your ability, and making a contribution to the knowledge of the rest of the world is generally considered a good thing. And something like Remote Viewing really shouldn't be that difficult to demonstrate scientifically.

Why don't I? See my comments above.

It is interesting to see the kind of moralistic urging I normally associate with religious manipulation being used (not just by you: "making a contribution to the knowledge of the rest of the world is generally considered a good thing") to try and persuade me, as it were, into the lab.

I am not claiming an ability. I shared my experiences of performing Remote Viewing protocols which suggested, to me alone, that RV does produce credible results. I don't see these results as saying anything about my personal abilities beyond being able to relax and follow simple instructions.

I agree that testing RV would be easy. Perhaps James Randi's reputation as a biased charlatan (e.g.: http://www.sheldrake.org/D&C/controversies/randi.html ) could account for the fact that no RV practitioner has taken up the MDC.

It is unfair to judge a forum owner by the quality of the posters their forum attracts but if the attitude of most JREFers reflects at all the motivations behind the MDC I am doubly not interested. JREF "science" seems to be all about winning and massaging egos rather than dispassionate enquiry.

Even so, I have, on this thread, out of curiosity, accepted the MDC but no-one appears to be interested in taking me up on it!

 

[Lusikka]

The mini-Gellers

In young age I read about psi-phenomena and hoped to experience them myself, but my hope was not fulfilled. Later on I read more and thought that a a few of the stories were concrete enouhg to be true. In my opinion the question whether there are real psi-phenomena or not is very important to have as realistic world view as possible.

I began to check out the many stories that were told to me. I think a small part of them were really interesting but did not succed to experience anything myself. That was changed in year 1974 when I was experimenting with two young boys, 8 and 9 years old, who were said to be able to bend spoons paranormally.

To start with I thought such bending is absolutely impossible. As an engineer in metallurgy I really knew that. But for my immense astonishment they succeeded, bending even my big dessert spoons by only lightly rubbing them or merely holding them between their small hands. Everything happened openly an well visible to all adults sitting and standing aroud.

Unfortunately the boys soon lost their ability, so that I did not have opportunity to document the happenings well. I have only my short notes and a little amount of scrap-metal left.

But worldwide there must have been thousands of similar mini-Gellers.

 

[Darat]

...snip...

Even so, I have, on this thread, out of curiosity, accepted the MDC but no-one appears to be interested in taking me up on it!

Could you post your application here? Perhaps in a new thread in the MDC section?

 

[Lonewulf]

Why don't I? See my comments above.

It is interesting to see the kind of moralistic urging I normally associate with religious manipulation being used (not just by you: "making a contribution to the knowledge of the rest of the world is generally considered a good thing") to try and persuade me, as it were, into the lab.

It's a fair enough offer. If remote viewing were demonstrated as possible, then it would provide a great deal of benefit, could prevent crimes, save lives, and bring the individual that made the demonstration fame, and probably make them successful. Not to mention earn their name being remembered for all time.

And even if you don't like that, the "moralizing" is based on reality. The overall benefit of making such knowledge known should be beneficial. While you may not like someone pointing that out because of alleged attempt to "proselytize" (which I don't understand, as I'm asking you to demonstrate something you say you can do, not "convert you"), it is the truth.

Not to mention that I fail to see what you could possibly lose.

I am not claiming an ability.

I disagree. You claim to be able to commit to remote viewing and be able to have positive results. All others that I've ever seen committing to an attempt to Remote Viewing have failed. I have never heard of a success.

If it were successful and available to the average person with easy test conditions, then it would be pursued by more than just you and a handful of others.

I shared my experiences of performing Remote Viewing protocols which suggested, to me alone, that RV does produce credible results

But what if, when others perform the exact same methods, they do not produce, to them or to almost anyone else, credible results?

I don't see these results as saying anything about my personal abilities beyond being able to relax and follow simple instructions.

Others who seem to follow the same instructions do not accomplish credible effects, though, unless you're claiming a "secret" way that the others haven't discovered yet?

I agree that testing RV would be easy. Perhaps James Randi's reputation as a biased charlatan (e.g.: http://www.sheldrake.org/D&C/controversies/randi.html ) could account for the fact that no RV practitioner has taken up the MDC.

I've seen many that claim that Randi is a "biased charlatan". I have yet to see anyone that has convinced me, and that link that you provided doesn't really convince me, as it's the lone claim of someone on the internet, which does not seem to provide enough data for me to be able to pursue.

And if testing RV would be easy, then why do only a handful seem to be actually be able to do it, except for those tested?

It is unfair to judge a forum owner by the quality of the posters their forum attracts but if the attitude of most JREFers reflects at all the motivations behind the MDC I am doubly not interested.

I assure you that I am not judging you by anything. Well, okay, I am probably, but I keep my judgments to myself and am willing to admit that I am wrong in my judgments anyways.

JREF "science" seems to be all about winning and massaging egos rather than dispassionate enquiry.

That is not my perception, personally.

Even so, I have, on this thread, out of curiosity, accepted the MDC but no-one appears to be interested in taking me up on it!

Well, this might be interesting to see followed up on.

 

[Lonewulf]

In young age I read about psi-phenomena and hoped to experience them myself, but my hope was not fulfilled. Later on I read more and thought that a a few of the stories were concrete enouhg to be true. In my opinion the question whether there are real psi-phenomena or not is very important to have as realistic world view as possible.

I began to check out the many stories that were told to me. I think a small part of them were really interesting but did not succed to experience anything myself. That was changed in year 1974 when I was experimenting with two young boys, 8 and 9 years old, who were said to be able to bend spoons paranormally.

To start with I thought such bending is absolutely impossible. As an engineer in metallurgy I really knew that. But for my immense astonishment they succeeded, bending even my big dessert spoons by only lightly rubbing them or merely holding them between their small hands. Everything happened openly an well visible to all adults sitting and standing aroud.

Unfortunately the boys soon lost their ability, so that I did not have opportunity to document the happenings well. I have only my short notes and a little amount of scrap-metal left.

But worldwide there must have been thousands of similar mini-Gellers.

Well, I'm naturally skeptical (and I say this to be up front), but I ask this question with no ulterior motive:

Why spoon bending? I always found this strange. Why the focus on spoons? Are they made from a special metal or something? Why can't they, say, break plastic, or move/nudge other objects?

For someone to be able to bend spoons with their mind, this suggests some kind of telekinesis, right? Why do they need to touch the spoons, though, or rub them? (And as you said, they rubbed them *or* held them in their hand, so I'm not convinced that the rubbing is supposed to be necessary).

I ask these questions because I'm genuinely curious.

Personally, I say that if these cases are actually documented, then perhaps those documenting them should note anything about the individuals (race, parents, maybe even anything that medical scans, especially of their brain, could show). So even if you can't demonstrate what they're actually doing, you can start to show some similarities... it might not convince skeptics, naturally, but at least it's the start on something that seems very vague and difficult to study.

 

[I Ratant]

When I first heard of spoon bending, I thought what a useless "ability"!
Then keys, etc, as the circus grew.
But with any of these, the "adept" had to touch the item, which when closely observed, showed how the item was actually bent using plain old leverage.
If there really was "force at a distance", personal contact wouldn't be needed.

 

[sanguine]

When I first heard of spoon bending, I thought what a useless "ability"!
Then keys, etc, as the circus grew.
But with any of these, the "adept" had to touch the item, which when closely observed, showed how the item was actually bent using plain old leverage.
If there really was "force at a distance", personal contact wouldn't be needed.

When I first heard of spoon bending, I imagined that the claim was "I will fold that spoon on that table way over there into a knot, with the power of my mind!" I didn't believe that was at all likely, but it sounded cool anyway.

When I actually saw it done, and realized the claim was, "I will mildly bend this spoon that I'm holding, around the point where I'm actually holding it, and using both hands!" I was rather less excited.

But then, I grew up reading X-Men. If you can't psychokinetically rearrange your day clothes into your super costume, what's your power worth, really?

 

[Lusikka]

Well, I'm naturally skeptical (and I say this to be up front), but I ask this question with no ulterior motive:

Why spoon bending? I always found this strange. Why the focus on spoons? Are they made from a special metal or something? Why can't they, say, break plastic, or move/nudge other objects?

For someone to be able to bend spoons with their mind, this suggests some kind of telekinesis, right? Why do they need to touch the spoons, though, or rub them? (And as you said, they rubbed them *or* held them in their hand, so I'm not convinced that the rubbing is supposed to be necessary).

I ask these questions because I'm genuinely curious.

Personally, I say that if these cases are actually documented, then perhaps those documenting them should note anything about the individuals (race, parents, maybe even anything that medical scans, especially of their brain, could show). So even if you can't demonstrate what they're actually doing, you can start to show some similarities... it might not convince skeptics, naturally, but at least it's the start on something that seems very vague and difficult to study.

Thank you that you did not jump on me promptly. What I wrote is really preposterous. Even nearly all parapsychologists think so.

Bending small metal objects is naturally useless, even harmful. You cannot open your lock with a bent key. But it is extremely important for world view. I investigated my test objects metallurgically, and they were just as if somebody would have bent them by force in room temperature. I have no understanding of the phenomenon, that is possibly continuing here and there also nowadays, but is relatively rare.

There are many observations of bending without touching the pieces. John Hasted let his subject children try it and he told they succeeded. Some pieces bent by Geller have said to continue to bend untouched on the table. I have not seen any documentation of these cases. There are also some reports telling that plastic pieces have been bent.

People have not been interested of the bending phenomenon. There were articles about the boys in newspapers an magazines with great reading public, but nobody tried to investigate what was going on. I was the only person in Finland trying to investigate the bending. Although I published my results immediately, nobody has come to see what evidence I really have.

 

[Lonewulf]

Thank you that you did not jump on me promptly. What I wrote is really preposterous. Even nearly all parapsychologists think so.

Bending small metal objects is naturally useless, even harmful. You cannot open your lock with a bent key. But it is extremely important for world view. I investigated my test objects metallurgically, and they were just as if somebody would have bent them by force in room temperature. I have no understanding of the phenomenon, that is possibly continuing here and there also nowadays, but is relatively rare.

There are many observations of bending without touching the pieces. John Hasted let his subject children try it and he told they succeeded. Some pieces bent by Geller have said to continue to bend untouched on the table. I have not seen any documentation of these cases. There are also some reports telling that plastic pieces have been bent.

I don't mean to be insulting or aggressive or the like, but you do realize that your story could easily be explained by the keys being pre-bent or you being tricked, right? Especially because there seems to be absolutely no way to verify any of what happened.

Those that are skeptical that hear this, are forced to use Occam's Razor unless there becomes a terribly compelling reason why they shouldn't...

People have not been interested of the bending phenomenon. There were articles about the boys in newspapers an magazines with great reading public, but nobody tried to investigate what was going on. I was the only person in Finland trying to investigate the bending. Although I published my results immediately, nobody has come to see what evidence I really have.

Well, what evidence do you really have, out of curiosity?

 

[fls]

I investigated my test objects metallurgically, and they were just as if somebody would have bent them by force in room temperature. I have no understanding of the phenomenon, that is possibly continuing here and there also nowadays, but is relatively rare.

I'm sorry. Maybe this is a language issue, but isn't that exactly what you'd expect to see under normal conditions? That is, after all, the claim that is made - that people simply bend these spoons using the force exerted by their hands at room temperature. I don't understand your confusion.

Linda

 

[I Ratant]

...

But then, I grew up reading X-Men. If you can't psychokinetically rearrange your day clothes into your super costume, what's your power worth, really?

.
If I could psychokinetically rearrange clothes, that gal in the ragged jeans would have attracted a LOT more attention!

 

[I Ratant]

Make the test objects out of titanium.
Ain't no one bending titanium with their hands!

 

[Kuko 4000]

I'm sorry. Maybe this is a language issue, but isn't that exactly what you'd expect to see under normal conditions? That is, after all, the claim that is made - that people simply bend these spoons using the force exerted by their hands at room temperature. I don't understand your confusion.

Linda

Having discussed this with him previously, I don't think it's a language issue. He just thinks it's more likely that it was achieved by using some kind of a paranormal power. Because, after all, he didn't see anything suspicious.

 

[Lusikka]

Having discussed this with him previously, I don't think it's a language issue. He just thinks it's more likely that it was achieved by using some kind of a paranormal power. Because, after all, he didn't see anything suspicious.

Right. The metallurgical structure and characteristics of the pieces were the same as if the pieces had been bent by force. In the bending situations using of force could not be detected.

 

[fls]

Right. The metallurgical structure and characteristics of the pieces were the same as if the pieces had been bent by force. In the bending situations using of force could not be detected.

But isn't that the point of doing magical tricks? You practice performing the movements quickly and smoothly, or use misdirection and other techniques, so that people don't notice when you use force.

Linda

 

[Lusikka]

I don't mean to be insulting or aggressive or the like, but you do realize that your story could easily be explained by the keys being pre-bent or you being tricked, right? Especially because there seems to be absolutely no way to verify any of what happened.

Those that are skeptical that hear this, are forced to use Occam's Razor unless there becomes a terribly compelling reason why they shouldn't...

Well, what evidence do you really have, out of curiosity?

There simply are no absolute ways to verify anything in metal bending. Multiple video recordings would be helpful, but conspiracies are always a risk.

Yes, I know the skeptics. I have discussed and argued already ten years with the Finnish skeptics.

All evidence I have now is my short notes, the scrap-metal, my memories and my articles. Naturally I have secured much information about metal-bending during these years in my files.

 

[Lonewulf]

There simply are no absolute ways to verify anything in metal bending. Multiple video recordings would be helpful, but conspiracies are always a risk.

I suppose, but it would certainly be much more helpful.

Yes, I know the skeptics. I have discussed and argued already ten years with the Finnish skeptics.

It seems like you really don't have much to go on in discussion with them.

All evidence I have now is my short notes,

Which is based on personal observations, recorded only on paper, by a person that easily could have been duped.

the scrap-metal

The scrap metal that showed signs that it was bent, which could easily have been by the hands of an individual.

my memories

Which are usually not incredibly reliable.

and my articles

Which are like the notes.

Pretty much, the only "evidence" you have, that could possibly be called "evidence", is the bent spoons in and of themselves, which show nothing supernatural, just that they were bent, as if from "force".

Really, I'm not sure what these Finnish skeptics were supposed to do.

Naturally I have secured much information about metal-bending during these years in my files.

While that in itself could be useful, if they're as your other bits of evidence demonstrated here, there just doesn't seem to be much that one can go by.