Have you ever experienced a paranormal phenomenon?

[Rodney]

But isn't that the point of doing magical tricks? You practice performing the movements quickly and smoothly, or use misdirection and other techniques, so that people don't notice when you use force.

Linda

If Lusikka's account is accurate, what stands out here is the age of the boys -- only 8 and 9 -- and so rather young to be adept magicians.

Lusikka: Since you say this occurred in 1974, the boys would now be in their early 40s. Has either of them ever commented on how they accomplished the spoon-bending, or why they lost the ability to do it?

 

[Lusikka]

I suppose, but it would certainly be much more helpful.

It seems like you really don't have much to go on in discussion with them.

Which is based on personal observations, recorded only on paper, by a person that easily could have been duped.



The scrap metal that showed signs that it was bent, which could easily have been by the hands of an individual.

Which are usually not incredibly reliable.

Which are like the notes.

Pretty much, the only "evidence" you have, that could possibly be called "evidence", is the bent spoons in and of themselves, which show nothing supernatural, just that they were bent, as if from "force".

Really, I'm not sure what these Finnish skeptics were supposed to do.

While that in itself could be useful, if they're as your other bits of evidence demonstrated here, there just doesn't seem to be much that one can go by.

Right, everything right. You know everything so well in advance.

 

[Lonewulf]

Right, everything right. You know everything so well in advance.

Can't say I'm incredibly surprised with this sarcastic reply. I know that people like to accuse others of arrogance when they're skeptical, but I'm just being up front. I'm not going to sit here and pretend to find evidence reliable, that I do not find reliable.

If you come up with compelling evidence, then there may very well be a reason for me to assume that I'm wrong. But the thing is, when you deal with claims a hundred times over, and each time proves to be a hoax, one doesn't immediately go in assuming that the 101st time must be true, even if the proffered evidence is just like the other 100 times.




And even if it wasn't, would you find the evidence to be reliable, if our positions were reversed? If you do, I have to wonder why. What is it that I missed, in particular?

Perhaps you assume that I am purposefully denying you? Perhaps you feel that I do not want my worldview to change? That I'm a person who refuses to change his mind in new evidence, the self-appointed denial agent, perhaps? If that is true, then that would be wrong. I do want you to be right, actually. I love the idea of psionics. I love the idea of remote viewing. Hell, I wish it were all true.

But see, I also don't believe the first thing people say to me.

Fool me once...

 

[sanguine]

If Lusikka's account is accurate, what stands out here is the age of the boys -- only 8 and 9 -- and so rather young to be adept magicians.

Kids that age regularly pick wallets from the pockets of travelers the world over, so I'll suggest here that they're not too young to sneak in some fake spoonbending in front of an observer -- especially if this is being done the way all spoonbending I've ever seen or heard of is, with the person being allowed to hold the spoon. After all, then it's not even an issue of them having to sneak a grab at it -- instead, they just need to pick a moment when your attention drifts slightly, apply some pressure, and hide that they made the bend at that moment, "revealing" it a little bit later.

I'd have to hunt for the cite, but I recall the "psychic kids breaking matches" study basically revealed that the kids messed with the matchboxes whenever an adult wasn't paying attention for a moment. Applying pressure for half a second to a spoon that you're already holding is much less of a reach.

Don't underestimate kids.

 

[fls]

If Lusikka's account is accurate, what stands out here is the age of the boys -- only 8 and 9 -- and so rather young to be adept magicians.

Perhaps you need to get out more. It's a fairly simple trick.

Linda

 

[six7s]

perhaps you need to get out <delete>more</delete>. It's a fairly simple trick.

Linda

ftfy

 

[Rodney]

Perhaps you need to get out more. It's a fairly simple trick.

Linda

If that's true, it should be easy to direct me to an on-line video of an 8-9 year-old performing this trick in the manner described by Lusikka; i.e., "bending even my big dessert spoons by only lightly rubbing them or merely holding them between their small hands. Everything happened openly an well visible to all adults sitting and standing aroud."

 

[six7s]

Spoonbending Kindergarten

Ever since the 1970s, spoonbending (and the bending of other cutlery, metal bars, and the like) has been held up as physical evidence for telekinesis, a form of PSI in which thoughts alone can allegedly be employed to alter the physical environment. In this episode, Michael Shermer attends a seminar on spoonbending and discovers the power of group think to actually bend metal!

 

[Limbo]

It's hard to guess how different I would be right now if I had not experienced what I have experienced in my life. I would probably still be a mainstream Christian. Instead I'm a freelance quasi-mystic, I suppose. A heretic by Christian standards.

I've had many experiences, but looking back I think it was the "poltergeist" incident and the "UFO" incident that really got me looking.

The "poltergeist" incident happened when I was about 17. My friend Derrick and I went out to a little get together, and Derricks pregnant wife Cathy stayed home at their apartment with her girlfriends. Well they played with a Ouija board, and when Derrick and I returned it was paranormal chaos and panic to make a long story short. I chalked it up to demons at the time. As a Christian I did my duty as I saw it and said some prayers with Cathy and Derrick. It seemed to work...or at least help a bit.

Then the "UFO" that a friend and I saw a few years later. BIG, FAST, and CLOSE. And silent. Graceful, playful.

And then there's the numerous instances of anomalous cognition and strange dreams. So yeah, I'm a "woo" by most standards around here. Yeah. I get it. I understand the hostility. Hostility from some quarters of religion, and hostility from some quarters of secularism.

At least I have the comfort of knowing that my position is actually grounded in personal experience and subsequent study of relevant fields, and none of you can take that away from people like me.

 

[Lonewulf]

Hostility?

 

[Limbo]

Oh...I'm not talking about anyone in particular. Just the general atmosphere around here toward "woo".

 

[six7s]

At least I have the comfort of knowing that my position is actually grounded in personal experience and subsequent study of relevant fields, and none of you can take that away from people like me.

Although the term grounded seems rather incongruous, you are correct; only you can take the woo out of your eyes

 

[Lonewulf]

Oh...I'm not talking about anyone in particular. Just the general atmosphere around here toward "woo".

That mostly goes towards people that intentionally make money through scams, or individuals that promise to be able to do things that they can not do. There's actual documented cases of "healing preachers" that cannot do it, or psychics that promise to be able to speak with dead relatives (and oh please can't you just donate $50 for the session)...

The reason why "woo" is treated with hostility is primarily because of those that make money off false claims.

 

[Limbo]

That mostly goes towards people that intentionally make money through scams, or individuals that promise to be able to do things that they can not do. There's actual documented cases of "healing preachers" that cannot do it, or psychics that promise to be able to speak with dead relatives (and oh please can't you just donate $50 for the session)...

The reason why "woo" is treated with hostility is primarily because of those that make money off false claims.

Well...it seems to me that sometimes some of that hostility spills over to the average "woo" on-the-street who doesn't try to make money through scams, etc.

Good thing burning at the stake is illegal.

 

[Lonewulf]

Well...it seems to me that sometimes some of that hostility spills over to the average "woo" on-the-street who doesn't try to make money through scams, etc.

Even if that's true...

Good thing burning at the stake is illegal.

Now you're just being hyperbolic.

 

[Limbo]

Even if that's true...

Oh, it's true all right. To some degree.

Now you're just being hyperbolic.

Yes...it was rather self-indulgent of me...

 

[Rodney]

Spoonbending Kindergarten

Despite the title, your video does not show what I requested.

 

[six7s]

Well...it seems to me that sometimes some of that hostility spills over to the average "woo" on-the-street who doesn't try to make money through scams, etc.

I'll be the first to admit that I have little tolerance/respect for woos that post lame-brained nonsense, on a sceptics forum, without any evidence to support what are, literally, ridiculous claims

Good thing burning at the stake is illegal.

Its the Golden Rule in practise: we, the employers, instruct our civil servants to draft, refine and enforce such laws

 

[six7s]

Despite the title, your video does not show what I requested.

get a dog

 

[Limbo]

I'll be the first to admit that I have little tolerance/respect for woos that post lame-brained nonsense

Yes. You should maybe work on that.

...on a sceptics forum...

Isn't that what this forum is for? To debate? Ideally with tolerance and respect?

Or is it a skeptics only club where you guys just sit around with each other chewing the fat, patting each other on the back, and making fun of "woo-woos"?