have they found anything?

[Jimbo07]

All I hear scientists say is how wonderfully complex nature is and marvelling at the way organisms are put together. You probably do the same until someone mentions ID. Then you panic and shift into the heckling and jeckling mode. It's that type of self-contradiction which seriously weakens your case.

Well, to be fair, it's not my case, because I am insufficiently expert to advance original thinking on the subject. That said...

I imagine there's a difference between 'wonderfully complex' and 'irreducibly complex' (the ID claim). Irreducible complexity has been dealt with many times, and many here would no-doubt call it bunk.

However, to borrow your phrase, wonderful complexity is not addressed often-enough. The body (forget human, just horse, chicken, etc.) is phenomenally intricate. We're barely able to wrap our pea-brains around it, and the brain still holds secrets... but these things aren't inscrutable. Complex, intricate and barely able do not mean unable. Some of the things that we have figured out suggest some strength and flexibility, but also a remarkable fragility! Key systems have little (or no) redundancy. There are so many failure modes that some are still unknown. They are energy inefficient.

In short, the body may have been designed by engineers, perhaps even clever ones, but they didn't have a robust Quality Assurance Process!

 

[shadron]

ISO-9000, 6 Sigma Darwinism?

 

[Leftus]

All I hear scientists say is how wonderfully complex nature is and marvelling at the way organisms are put together. You probably do the same until someone mentions ID. Then you panic and shift into the heckling and jeckling mode. It's that type of self-contradiction which seriously weakens your case.

All I hear geologists say is how wonderfully complex planet Earth is and marvelling at the way plate tectonics work. You probably do the same until someone mentions Flat Earth. Then you panic and shift into the heckling and jeckling mode. It's that type of self-contradiction which seriously weakens your case.

 

[godless dave]

All I hear scientists say is how wonderfully complex nature is and marvelling at the way organisms are put together. You probably do the same until someone mentions ID. Then you panic and shift into the heckling and jeckling mode. It's that type of self-contradiction which seriously weakens your case.

There is no contradiction.

 

[amb]

The only contradictions are found in the babble, not biology or abiogenesis.

 

[Radrook]

All I hear geologists say is how wonderfully complex planet Earth is and marvelling at the way plate tectonics work. You probably do the same until someone mentions Flat Earth. Then you panic and shift into the heckling and jeckling mode. It's that type of self-contradiction which seriously weakens your case.

Why would I panic when some ignoramus mentions a flat earth? Furthermore, what does such an imbecilic idea have to do with the possibility or impossibility of ID? NOTHING! They are mutually- exclusive completely unrelated topics. Trying to merge them is illogical. Comes under the term-obfuscation. Or perhaps begging the question? One thing is for sure, it definitely isn't cogent reasoning.

BTW

To me the belief in abiogeneisis is babble as it is to certain scientists who disagree with it despite their complete understanding of its unwarranted and unprovable assumptions.

[excerpt:

In The Beginning Was The Word
"The idea of a universal mind or Logos would be, I think, a fairly plausible inference from the present state of scientific theory."

Arthur Eddington,
(Astrophysicist): Heeren, F. 1995. Show Me God. Wheeling, IL, Searchlight Publications, p. 233.

Excerpt

Evolution Roulette
"What gambler would be crazy enough to play roulette with random evolution? The probability of dust carried by the wind reproducing Durer's 'Melancholia' is less infinitesimal than the probability of copy errors in the DNA molecule leading to the formation of the eye; besides, these errors had no relationship whatsoever with the function that the eye would have to perform or was starting to perform.
There is no law against daydreaming, but science must not indulge in it."

Pierre-Paul Grasse,
French zoologist in 'Evolution of Living Organisms' (New York: Academic Press, 1977),

Excerpt

I Give Up!
"If living matter is not, then, caused by the interplay of atoms, natural forces and radiation, how has it come into being?
There is another theory, now quite out of favor, which is based upon the ideas of Lamarck: that if an organism needs an improvement it will develop it, and transmit it to its progeny.
I think, however, that we must go further than this and admit that the only acceptable explanation is creation.
I know this is an anathema to physicists, as indeed it is to me, but we must not reject a theory that we do not like if the experimental evidence supports it."

Dr. H. S. Lipson,
F.R.S. Professor of Physics, University of Manchester, UK, 'A physicist looks at evolution', Physics Bulletin, 1980, vol 31,

http://unmaskingevolution.com/4-abiogenesis.htm

Bolding mine

 

[I Ratant]

"I can't wait to hear how SETI has done this."
"Well, here we are at the top of the mountain. No elk here, let's go home".

 

[Radrook]

"I can't wait to hear how SETI has done this."
"Well, here we are at the top of the mountain. No elk here, let's go home".

I don't think that SETI searches can ever justyify such a statement. SETI searches
are too meager and the top of the mountain seems to be forever beyond reach.

 

[amb]

The thing is, how do you search for a needle in a huge double sized haystack?

Billions of targets in our galaxy alone and life as we know it is so an unlikely event that if it did find intelligent life it would be regarded as a million to one shot.
Even life based on silicone for example would show some signs of intelligence that would be recognised by us if it exists.

I'm of the opinion that the cosmos is teeming with life. But it's only bacterial in nature or very primitive one celled at best.

 

[Radrook]

Just recently a planet that might be a candidate for haboring our type of life was discovered. The problem is that it's 20 light years distant. Since light travels at approx 186,000 mps that means that two-way communication would have to be at forty-year intervals. It also means that if there is intelligent life there they either haven't developed the technology yet, aren't interested in communicating, or else are communicating in some manner we havent been able to detect. The overall impression I get is that these overwhelming distances indicate that we were never meant to have contact with such beings if indeed they do exist.

 

[shadron]

Just recently a planet that might be a candidate for haboring our type of life was discovered. The problem is that it's 20 light years distant. Since light travels at approx 186,000 mps that means that two-way communication would have to be at forty-year intervals. It also means that if there is intelligent life there they either haven't developed the technology yet, aren't interested in communicating, or else are communicating in some manner we havent been able to detect. The overall impression I get is that these overwhelming distances indicate that we were never meant to have contact with such beings if indeed they do exist.

<hysterical reaction that radrook expects from me>The "impression you get"? You mean the Bible doesn't say? Oh, my, you're on your own, huh? I guess were supposed to assume that since god made them so far away we're not supposed to communicate and ask sticky questions like, "Do they have souls? Do they need to be saved, or did they pass their big test? Do they even have a religious concept at all? What do they think of the Big Bang, or evolution? Why are they not mentioned in Genesis, as all important things are?"

If we do find someone at that distance and they are communicating, I think we'll just send them wikipedia one page at a time, and read what they send, and eventually we'll sort of catch up to each other. But don't worry - you'll have at least 20 years to prepare.</hysteria>

 

[amb]

<hysterical reaction that radrook expects from me>The "impression you get"? You mean the Bible doesn't say? Oh, my, you're on your own, huh? I guess were supposed to assume that since god made them so far away we're not supposed to communicate and ask sticky questions like, "Do they have souls? Do they need to be saved, or did they pass their big test? Do they even have a religious concept at all? What do they think of the Big Bang, or evolution? Why are they not mentioned in Genesis, as all important things are?"

If we do find someone at that distance and they are communicating, I think we'll just send them wikipedia one page at a time, and read what they send, and eventually we'll sort of catch up to each other. But don't worry - you'll have at least 20 years to prepare.</hysteria>

Or the problem of what do they look like?
What if their intelligent dinosaurs? would that mean god is not really in our image? And that the babble is after all just that?

 

[Jimbo07]

Or the problem of what do they look like?
What if their intelligent dinosaurs? would that mean god is not really in our image? And that the babble is after all just that?

They've got this covered. "His Image" is a metaphorical statement...

 

[Radrook]

<hysterical reaction that radrook expects from me>The "impression you get"? You mean the Bible doesn't say? Oh, my, you're on your own, huh? I guess were supposed to assume that since god made them so far away we're not supposed to communicate and ask sticky questions like, "Do they have souls? Do they need to be saved, or did they pass their big test? Do they even have a religious concept at all? What do they think of the Big Bang, or evolution? Why are they not mentioned in Genesis, as all important things are?"

If we do find someone at that distance and they are
communicating, I think we'll just send them wikipedia one page at a time, and read what they send, and eventually we'll sort of catch up to each other. But don't worry - you'll have at least 20 years to prepare.</hysteria>

Please note that whenever someone expresses his views on this subject that person doesn't necessarily do it in order to provoke any type of negative reaction but simply wishes to express his views as he sees things. I for example don't assume anyone here is trying to get me to react hysterically or in any other way when I read anything that goes contrary to my view. So why should anyone assume that about any of my views?

My opinion is simply my opinion. Now, if my opinion is perceived as a serious affront to other opinions and is viewed as being some type of challenge-then rest assured it isn't meant that way. It's simply my opinion which I feel I have a right to express as much as anyone else without coming under immediate attack. Hope that clears up things a little.

BTW

The questions asked here aren't insurmountable obstacles fact, they are easily answerable. But for me to do so would deviate the thread into the religious. However, if you wish to address those points feel free to post it in the religious forum and I'll be glad to respond to those supposedly insurmountable issues

.

 

[Radrook]

Or the problem of what do they look like?
What if their intelligent dinosaurs? would that mean god is not really in our image? And that the babble is after all just that?

The answer to your query is given in the minister's sermon in the film: "Village of the Damned" The film is on the free-film category on Comcast on Demand. The film is about extraterrestrial life-so it fits in nicely with the thread.

 

[amb]

I watched that movie years ago. I can't recall that scene.
I will try and watch it again. Great film as I recall. I love SF if not too outrages.

 

[Radrook]

I watched that movie years ago. I can't recall that scene.
I will try and watch it again. Great film as I recall. I love SF if not too outrages.

I enjoy well-written sci fi as well. Christopher Reeves, may he rest in peace, gave a fine performance as one of the children's foster parents. The sermon explanation comes approximately in the middle of the film where it has become clear to the towns-people that something is definitely wrong with the children.

 

[amb]

''The Day The Earth Stood Still'' In my humble opinion is still ranked as one of the best S/F movies ever.
I also loved the original ''Time Machine'' with Rod Taylor as the lead.

 

[Radrook]

''The Day The Earth Stood Still'' In my humble opinion is still ranked as one of the best S/F movies ever.
I also loved the original ''Time Machine'' with Rod Taylor as the lead.

Those two are my favorites as well. Also the following ones:

Forbidden Planet, War of the Worlds, Aliens. The series "Twighlight Zone" had some good Sci Fi episodes. "To Serve Man" was a good one.

 

[amb]

The original Star Trek was also a great series with a great story line in each episode.

I used to watch ''Twilight Zone'' [Rod Serling as narrator] religiously.