have they found anything?

[amb]

It may not pose a problem to religious faith if ET was to show up tomorrow, but wouldn't that irreparable damage the idea that man's a special or ultimate creation of God?

 

[shadron]

Fundies believe in an Earth centered universe. They reluctantly accepted that the Earth orbits the sun. In their sacred scriptures, it states that God made Adam and Eve in their image. Nowhere in the babble [Genesis] does it state that God also made OOraku and AAnnau on a planet far, far away.
Imagine if ET making contact with us knows nothing of any gods yet they would be at least 1oo-3oo thousand years ahead of us on the evolution path, both biological and technology wise.
This very question was asked of a high ranking church official decades ago. His response was. '' Well, if they do not know of Jeebuse's sacrifice here on Earth, we would have to teach them about the good news of the gospels.'' Imagine that. ET traveling for perhaps hundreds of light years to be bible bashed by some fundy organization.

This is underlined by he question of the original sin. Adam and Eve sinned, and that made life imperfect for us because we are their children (guilt by presumed blood relation). It required god to send JC to help us out, because we couldn't have done it (whatever "it" is, and pity those who lived before JC and didn't get "it") ourselves. If ETs appear, the question is whether they were put "to the test", and whether they passed it or not. If they didn't, then they didn't need JC's sacrifice to straighten out their lives, or are they still waiting for "it"? Or maybe they answer to their own god, who did things a totally different way. If so, where does omnipotence go? If they have no equivalent concept then do they really have soul (or whatever god added to us to make us special), or are they just animals, even if more intelligent/cultured/<name the attribute> than we are? If they passed their test, does that make them superior morally to us? Do we take their word for it? Do they have to bow to our god if they passed, or we to theirs? Are our gods miscible? The theological questions go on forever, and have the potential of doing great harm to the population that believes in them - for example, an inferiority complex growing into unfounded xenophobia.

 

[Radrook]

This is underlined by he question of the original sin. Adam and Eve sinned, and that made life imperfect for us because we are their children (guilt by presumed blood relation). It required god to send JC to help us out, because we couldn't have done it (whatever "it" is, and pity those who lived before JC and didn't get "it") ourselves.

Those who lived before Jesus are covered by his ransom sacrifice.
Ever hear of the resurrection and reward promises?

Whatever it is they couldn't do, was refrain from sinning. Since the punishment for sin is death, then death could not be evaded. Jesus' death paid the price o death for all mankind leaving those willing to take advantage of it able to eventually gain eternal life. Not on their own merit-but because the penalty had been paid for them.

If ETs appear, the question is whether they were put "to the test", and whether they passed it or not. If they didn't, then they didn't need JC's sacrifice to straighten out their lives, or are they still waiting for "it"?

Jesus died as a man for the sons of Adam. That's why he took the human form. His death isn't applicable to other humans or creatures who are not of Adamic stock.

Or maybe they answer to their own god, who did things a totally different way. If so, where does omnipotence go?

There are people here on earth who answer to their own ideas of gods and omnipotence goes nowhere.

If they have no equivalent concept then do they really have soul (or whatever god added to us to make us special), or are they just animals, even if more intelligent/cultured/<name the attribute> than we are?

There are people right here on earth who differ in concepts and whom Christians still consider to have a soul and are considered humans and not animals.

If they passed their test, does that make them superior morally to us?

It would make them morally capable of doing God's will perfectly because they haven't suffered physical the consequences of sin. Would it make every individual in their group incapable of sin? No. Sin will continue to be a personal choice.

Do we take their word for it?

Mankind isn't that gullible. Especially since mankind has a tendency to deceive due to ulterior motives.

Do they have to bow to our god if they passed, or we to theirs? Are our gods miscible?

Why would a Christian feel he has to bow before a concept of God that comes across as totally alien? Did Christian missionaries begin bowing down to the God's of non-Christians
simply because they found concepts of other gods? One doesn't need an alien race to encounter that situation. It exists right here on earth right now and Christianity deals with it as it would deal with any such concept. By rejecting it.

sociological questions go on forever, and have the potential of doing great harm to the population that believes in them - for example, an inferiority complex growing into unfounded xenophobia.

Christians already believe in creatures superior to mankind both physically and intellectuially-angels-and they haven't developed and inferiority complex so far.


2 Peter 2:11
Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might,....

Psalm 8:4-6

4What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?

5For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels,....

They simply consider them a sort of elderly big brothers whom God simply chose to make superior to us for his own good reasons. In fact, they are said to have witnessed the creation of the earth itself.



Job 38

4Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

7When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Yet that is accepted as given with no resentment nor ineferiority complex. So why would an additional big brother make any difference? It would simply be viewed in the same light. From a correct Christian standpoint.

 

[Ottis]

I would think (or at least hope) that the idea of religion is a mental illness unique to humanity. If not, then the universe, if/ when interstellar travel becomes possible, (assuming ETIs are out there) will be a very dangerous place to live in...
Those unwilling to learn from the past are doomed to repeat it.

 

[Radrook]

I would think (or at least hope) that the idea of religion is a mental illness unique to humanity. If not, then the universe, if/ when interstellar travel becomes possible, (assuming ETIs are out there) will be a very dangerous place to live in...
Those unwilling to learn from the past are doomed to repeat it.

That seems to assume that all religion has no beneficial sociological function. Which is of course absurd. If indeed humans invented religion as I'm sure you believe, then it was because it provided survival advantages. Brought psychological comfort in the face of the unknown for example giving mankind a sense of security he would otherwise have lacked during the time when the forces of nature all seemed hell bent on his destruction.

So it's really not strange from a purely atheistic viewpoint to expect other sentient reasoning creatures to avail themselves of the same psychological benefit. Furthermore, reasoning creatures don't usually conclude that complicated things which show organization towards a purpose assemble themselves magically without the guidance of mind. So it's far more likely that reasoning creatures conclude-as mankind had for most of its history and as the majority of mankind still does, that all this organization toward purpose was caused by an ID.

So IMHO it would be highly unusual and highly unlikely for an ET to be an atheist.

BTW
Such an ET might view atheism as a manifestation of insanity.

 

[Frozenwolf150]

At this point I don't know whether to shudder or snicker in anticipation of the interplanetary wars that are sure to break out when fundies on Earth try to force their religious beliefs on fundies from other planets.

"See, this dead Jewish dude on a stick went through all that to pay for your sins! Now get down on your knees and accept him as your Lord and Savior!"

"Yeah, well this dead Tau Cetian burned in plasma radiation went through all that to erase the stains of wickedness from your spirit bodies! Now wave your appendages in the air and offer penance to him!"

"Blasphemy!"

"Blasphemy!"

(Cue thermonuclear exchange)

 

[Beerina]

Whatever it is they couldn't do, was refrain from sinning. Since the punishment for sin is death, then death could not be evaded. Jesus' death paid the price o death for all mankind leaving those willing to take advantage of it able to eventually gain eternal life. Not on their own merit-but because the penalty had been paid for them.

So God killed himself to satisfy his own wrath?


Why not just say, "Be ye kind"? And let in the good people who can live together peacefully, and make everyone else live life over and over until they learn?

 

[Beerina]

At this point I don't know whether to shudder or snicker in anticipation of the interplanetary wars that are sure to break out when fundies on Earth try to force their religious beliefs on fundies from other planets.

Depending on the size of the interstellar, intergalactic, or e'en inter-universal community, I would be scared ********.

With a few billion people, and a few thousand years, the most dominating memes to evolve we call "Christianity" and "Islam" *

But what if it were quadrillions or quintillions or nonillions of people, over billions of years (or hundreds of trillions, for that matter)?

Whatever meme came out on top of that hideous mess would sweep away some poor little evangelical Christian or threatening Imam without batting an eye.

Hell, they'll probably have a very well-polished mechanism already in-place for rationalizing invading a planet to quick-convert everybody.


Thanks to Dawkins, we should all be scared (dung free) of alien civilization.




* Though the secular religion of Vox Populi, Vox Dei, as wielded by charismatics to yoke big chunks of society as surely as religion or dictators did, is giving religion a future-threatening run for their money.










"Tell me, is the class moving too slow for you?"

 

[Radrook]

So God killed himself to satisfy his own wrath?

The purpose of the payment for sin wasn't to satisfy wrath, It was to liberate mankind from its obligation of paying for sin. What was actually satisfied was his need to show mercy.
Wrath is satisfied by destroying whatever is one is angered at.

BTW
I don't believe Jesus was or is God. All that was needed was perfect human needed to die, not a demi- god or God incarnate and that's what was provided. That's why Jesus is referred to as the second or last Adam.

1 Corinthians 15:45
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

Why not just say, "Be ye kind"? And let in the good people who can live together peacefully, ....

What does that command really entail? It seems to require programing people so that they can't really choose. In that case their behavior has no value. It is tantamount to making people machines. Insects actually since they would go about doing things mostly on instinct.

and make everyone else live life over and over until they learn?

Because that would not fix their sinful nature. No matter how much they learned and tried they would still fall short and sin and have to pay the penalty of death. So a liberation from that flawed condition, a hopeless one actually, needed be provided. It was provided by having a sinless person pay the price leaving those who availed themselves of that provision by accepting it capable of attaining life eternal.

BTW
Technically speaking, Jesus was an extraterrestrial.

John 8:23
And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.

 

[amb]

What a contradiction that is. A perfect man had to die to pay for some ridiculous, seemingly absurd sin that the first man was perceived to have committed by biting on an apple. You don't see how ridiculous that sounds? Where's the mercy in that? True mercy would be shown if at the last moment this man was spared the agony of crucifiction. All this proved is that the God of Christianity is nothing but a bloodthirsty god like all the rest of ancient mans myths.

 

[Frozenwolf150]

(Snipped all the BS about the propitiatory sacrifice, the perfection of Jesus, moral teachings removing free will, ad hoc reasoning, and statements of 100% certainty about what people would not do.)

Technically speaking, Jesus was an extraterrestrial.

John 8:23
And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.

Finally, something on-topic. It's still stupid though. Jesus was born to human parents and had human characteristics, flaws, and biological functions. If extraterrestrial claims are to be taken at face value without any other supporting evidence, then it implies that the claims of the Raëlians, Mormons, Scientologists, Heaven's Gate, et al should also be taken at face value. Looks like alien Jesus is going to have some competition.

 

[amb]

Finally, something on-topic. It's still stupid though. Jesus was born to human parents and had human characteristics, flaws, and biological functions. If extraterrestrial claims are to be taken at face value without any other supporting evidence, then it implies that the claims of the Raëlians, Mormons, Scientologists, Heaven's Gate, et al should also be taken at face value. Looks like alien Jesus is going to have some competition.

All that's happening in reality, is that the woo of the past centuries religious beliefe is moving into the 21st century. Now Jeebus comes to us in a UFO.

 

[Ottis]

I would think (or at least hope) that the idea of religion is a mental illness unique to humanity. If not, then the universe, if/ when interstellar travel becomes possible, (assuming ETIs are out there) will be a very dangerous place to live in...
Those unwilling to learn from the past are doomed to repeat it.

Radrook had a very good point;

That seems to assume that all religion has no beneficial sociological function. Which is of course absurd. If indeed humans invented religion as I'm sure you believe, then it was because it provided survival advantages. Brought psychological comfort in the face of the unknown for example giving mankind a sense of security he would otherwise have lacked during the time when the forces of nature all seemed hell bent on his destruction.

I should have said; ..snip..idea of religious fundamentalism is a mental illness...snip...

 

[Radrook]

To me a fundamentalist Christian is a person who adheres to the funadamentals of Christianity and their is NOTHING in those fundamentals which tell us to FORCE our beliefs on others. So what people here are referring to when they say Fundie isn't really what term should mean in the purest sense off the word. What it's really referringf to is an Unchristian practice which Christ himself would condemn as not his teaching.

So, an alien civilization based authentically based on those Christian fundamemntals would tell us that their way is right. However, they would not feel justified in shoving their beliefs down our throats as humans who are not really following the fundamentals did via wars and forced baptisms.

Now if that alien civilization adhered to the precepts of some other religious fundamentals wherein war is taught as a way to spread their beliefs, then the result of our contacting them might very well turn out as described.


BTW
I once saw a sci fi film where the aliens had actually seen the ID.
Supposedly their technology had made it possible. In my view their might be millions of planets all veritable paradises with
creatures who never fell into the predicament we have and who might automatically view atheistic claims as signs of mental deficiency or even insanity.

 

[Ottis]

My idea of a fundamentalist of any religion/ dogma/ politic is someone who is so set in their beliefs that they see any alternative to their views as an offense or attack, and see force as a reasonable reaction to that view.
Maybe I should use the term "extreme fundamentalist" or "extremest"...(?)
But I see your point, I once read Childhoods End by Arthur C Clarke, with a plot similar to what you mentioned. A plausible scenario to be sure.
PS; I actually read it many times, one of my favorite authors!

 

[Ottis]

PS; I grew up in a "fundamentalist" (maybe not "extremest") home, it did not leave a good impression on me. I saw books get burned and learned that I shouldn't ask certain questions, I hope I don't come off as bitter. (even if I am, a little..)

 

[Radrook]

I read Childhood's End as well some time ago. I do like some of the author's other stories, but that one I didn't enjoy. Probably because I was expecting pure sci fi and not a blend of the supposed supernatural. His 2001 a space Oddysee I enjoyed though. However the finale to the Space Oddysee series, [2020?] lacked the same punch. Wasn't he the one who gave NASA the idea of a space elevator? He included the ideait in the last Space Odysaee novel as well but had suggested it before that.

BTW
Arthur C. Clark has a tendency to represent humans as always in some way superior to aliens. Ever notice that?

 

[Ottis]

3001 was the last of the 2001 series, it definitely lacked the, ah, punch, of the original... Interesting, but rather "vanilla".....
My favorite A C Clarke novel was "The Songs of Distant Earth", and yes, he did have a habit of making the humans as somehow superior to the ETs...

 

[amb]

Maybe he believes he knows something we don't about any aliens. If we are not the first intelligent life to evolve in the universe, we are certainly one of the first.
The universe has not existed long enough for some other species to develop our state of intelligence. Seeing that it took 4.5 [aproxx] billion years for intelligent life to develop here, why would it be any different anywhere else in the cosmos considering it's around 13.7 billion years old and the elements that make up all life had to be made in the first and possibly second generation of stars.

 

[LarianLeQuella]

RE OT: I figure that we must search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence because, sod it all, there seems to be precious little of it terrestrially!