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Has Boris gone yet?

Lothian said:
I am not sure you have Labour and Tory voters in the way you used to where your post code gave a 99% accurate prediction.
I think the Tory end still holds up but areas with traditional Labour voters had them because Labour stood up for the poor man. What Boris did well is convince those people that Labour stood up for the immigrants who stole their jobs and the unemployed who they are subsiding and that rather than rich poor being the divide votes should be retired and working vote Tory, unemployed and immigrants vote Labour
A simplified analysis but the working poor is the group that switched rather than the political left and right wing.
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Yes, and it's worth remembering that this is the group Disraeli spotted were actually patriotic social conservatives. Trying to bridge a gap between the globalist, socially progressive parts of the party, and the nationalist, socially conservative parts is going to be very difficult. It's like trying to simultaneously represent both sides on the transgender thread.
 
shuttlt said:
Yes, and it's worth remembering that this is the group Disraeli spotted were actually patriotic social conservatives. Trying to bridge a gap between the globalist, socially progressive parts of the party, and the nationalist, socially conservative parts is going to be very difficult. It's like trying to simultaneously represent both sides on the transgender thread.
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Trying to overlay the modern political landscape with that from over a 140 years ago is beyond meaningless it's insanity.
 
Darat said:
Trying to overlay the modern political landscape with that from over a 140 years ago is beyond meaningless it's insanity.
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You are right Darat. How silly of me. There are lots of times in the past 140 years where the working class have been at the vanguard of social progressivism while the Oxbridge educated Liberals and later the Labour party, who supposedly represented them, were stuck in the past. There was only so long that Starmer was able to tow the line of a woman being an adult human female before the trans lobby that is the old mill towns forced him to modernise. Well do I remember that globalist vegan from Rochdale who encountered Gordon Brown on the election campaign describing him as "a sort of bigoted man who said he was the leader of the Labour Party".

The basic hypocrisy of the 19th Century Liberals that Disraeli observed is a deep thing. That the Tories could have more in common with the working class than the Liberals is a big realisation. Russell talks about the same kind of thing going on with the sophists and the aristocratic Athenians they served. You see it again in the attitudes of the Fabians to the working class. The Liberals were nominally the party of progress, that believed in expanding the franchise, but actually they were moral prigs who despised the attitudes and tastes of ordinary people. Corbyn had this problem. Now Starmer has this problem.
 
shuttlt said:
You are right Darat. How silly of me. There are lots of times in the past 140 years where the working class have been at the vanguard of social progressivism while the Oxbridge educated Liberals and later the Labour party, who supposedly represented them, were stuck in the past. There was only so long that Starmer was able to tow the line of a woman being an adult human female before the trans lobby that is the old mill towns forced him to modernise. Well do I remember that globalist vegan from Rochdale who encountered Gordon Brown on the election campaign describing him as "a sort of bigoted man who said he was the leader of the Labour Party".

The basic hypocrisy of the 19th Century Liberals that Disraeli observed is a deep thing. That the Tories could have more in common with the working class than the Liberals is a big realisation. Russell talks about the same kind of thing going on with the sophists and the aristocratic Athenians they served. You see it again in the attitudes of the Fabians to the working class. The Liberals were nominally the party of progress, that believed in expanding the franchise, but actually they were moral prigs who despised the attitudes and tastes of ordinary people. Corbyn had this problem. Now Starmer has this problem.
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...and yet the likes of Jacob Rees Mogg and Boris Johnson truly are the voice of the downtrodden underclass.

The ridiculous thing is that a lot of people actually believe this to be true. Labour and LibDems are the real h8rs because they discourage people from acting on their bigoted urges.
 
Puppycow said:
And forgive me if this is a silly question, but the Tories do win seats in Scotland?
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Yes, there are still some well-to-do areas which naturally lean Conservative. Dumfries and Galloway springs to mind.

Puppycow said:
Also why can’t Labour form a government with the SNP?
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The SNP might provide support for specific issues and policies but I very much doubt they'd sully themselves by getting into bed with the "Red Tories" especially as they (the SNP) don't concern themselves with legislation that doesn't apply to Scotland and given the range of devolved areas, there's a lot they don't care about.

Labour would therefore be a minority government who would likely lose the majority of their votes.
 
Darat said:
Trying to overlay the modern political landscape with that from over a 140 years ago is beyond meaningless it's insanity.
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A strange objection surely. The more things change, the more they stay the same comes to mind.
 
Samson said:
A strange objection surely. The more things change, the more they stay the same comes to mind.
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Objection? Not really an objection it's just that it is nonsense and has no real-world value. A knowledge of history can be useful, and yes sometimes historic situations can be compared to modern ones in limited ways, but this isn't an example of that.
 
The Don said:
...and yet the likes of Jacob Rees Mogg and Boris Johnson truly are the voice of the downtrodden underclass.
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Can be. It kind of depends on they extent that the are prepared to represent the opinions held by the "downtrodden underclass".

The Don said:
The ridiculous thing is that a lot of people actually believe this to be true. Labour and LibDems are the real h8rs because they discourage people from acting on their bigoted urges.
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Exactly. You despise the views of these people as well. Claiming to simultaneously represent a group while despising the opinions and tastes of that group is the bind that Labour finds itself in.
 
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Darat said:
Objection? Not really an objection it's just that it is nonsense and has no real-world value. A knowledge of history can be useful, and yes sometimes historic situations can be compared to modern ones in limited ways, but this isn't an example of that.
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It's good we've got you here making these decisions for us Darat. Sure, for the past 140 years, the UK working class have been more socially conservative than the liberal elites who have "represented" them, but thanks to your detailed explanation, I now realise that that is just 140 years of coincidences, all tending in the same direction.
 
Tory backbenchers are going to refuse to vote along with the government to force him to resign:

Rebel Conservative MPs are drawing up plans for “vote strikes” to paralyse law-making and capitalise on the dramatic Boris Johnson no-confidence vote.

Some of the 148 MPs who voted to oust the prime minister on Monday said they would try to stymie his government’s legislative agenda, as happened at the end of the Theresa May era, by abstaining on key laws.

They plan to start with a showdown over a bill to override sections of the Northern Ireland protocol, to be published within days.
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https://www.theguardian.com/politic...-pms-weakened-position?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
 
shuttlt said:
Can be. It kind of depends on they extent that the are prepared to represent the opinions held by the "downtrodden underclass".
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Don’t pretend that they’re their friends. They’ll always want to keep them downtrodden.


Exactly. You despise the views of these people as well. Claiming to simultaneously represent a group while despising the opinions and tastes of that group is the bind that Labour finds itself in.
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shuttlt said:
It's good we've got you here making these decisions for us Darat. Sure, for the past 140 years, the UK working class have been more socially conservative than the liberal elites who have "represented" them, but thanks to your detailed explanation, I now realise that that is just 140 years of coincidences, all tending in the same direction.
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It’s good thing ethics aren’t determined democratically.
 
Lothian said:
Incompetence doesn't get a no confidence vote, otherwise he would have had one the day he started. The vote happens when enough MPs think they will lose their seat in the next election.
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I know, but my point was that you can have a vote of no confidence for just about anything a majority of the PM;'s party deem sufficent, but with Impeachment you have to have at least a show of actually breaking the law though not necessary imprisonable offenses. (You can be impeache for abuse of power, but you can't be sent to jail for it.
 
Darat said:
Trying to overlay the modern political landscape with that from over a 140 years ago is beyond meaningless it's insanity.
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You might be right in this specific instance, but I have noted you seem to have a feeling that History can teach us nothing. I think you are very, very, wrong there.
 
shuttlt said:
Can be. It kind of depends on they extent that the are prepared to represent the opinions held by the "downtrodden underclass".
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Yes, it's the unfortunate overlap between upper-class bigotry and racism and white working class bigotry and racism. What the white working-class don't realise is that the upper-class are just as bigoted towards them.

shuttlt said:
Exactly. You despise the views of these people as well. Claiming to simultaneously represent a group while despising the opinions and tastes of that group is the bind that Labour finds itself in.
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I think that's overstating it a smidge, IMO it's not a case of despising those opinions but given that those opinions are those of hate and intolerance, it's better than fuelling them as the Conservatives do.

As with so many things, the solution lies in education, both formal and informal, which is why those on the right are so suspicious of teachers. You have to keep people ignorant if you want to keep them hating.
 
The Don said:
In the UK, rather like in the US, voters seem to prefer Labour Party policies and now even think that Labour Party politicians may be more trustworthy (or perhaps less untrustworthy) but a significant number still vote Tory when actually at the ballot box. :boggled:

Given that Labour won't get any seats in Scotland, they'll need to win England which is a huuuuuuuuuuge electoral mountain to climb. IMO they'd need a 10+ point lead in the polls to stand any chance whatsoever.
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Cosmic Yak said:
Is this true?
Without going back over previous well-trodden ground too much, my impression was that, in the last general election, many Labour voters switched to Conservative because of Corbyn.
Now he's gone, is there any indication that Labour voters will continue to vote Tory, as you claim?
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Lothian said:
I am not sure you have Labour and Tory voters in the way you used to where your post code gave a 99% accurate prediction.
I think the Tory end still holds up but areas with traditional Labour voters had them because Labour stood up for the poor man. What Boris did well is convince those people that Labour stood up for the immigrants who stole their jobs and the unemployed who they are subsiding and that rather than rich poor being the divide votes should be retired and working vote Tory, unemployed and immigrants vote Labour
A simplified analysis but the working poor is the group that switched rather than the political left and right wing.
Click to expand...

Looking back at your post, I've realised you've not answered the point I was querying.
This is not about traditional Labour voters or voting areas, or even about the policies of the two main parties.
This is about the claim that a significant number of people say they will vote Labour in opinion polls, but actually then go on to vote Conservative. I would like to know if that is true, and what evidence there is for that claim.
 
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