Hamas crimes against humanity

[Thunder]

Must be difficult on your conscience living on occupied land while moralizing about Israel's so-called occupation.

Yes. The evil Dutch took Manhattan and the rest of NYC from the Native Americans, back in 1654.

355 years later, I still feel bad about it.

If any of those Indians were still alive, I believe they should get back their land or receive fair compensation for its full market value.

But they all died.....320 years ago.

However, there are still possibly hundreds of thousands of 1st generation Palestinian refugees. Some of them even have the keys to their homes in Israel. And many more have the land deeds to land underneath settlements in the West Bank.

Its too late for the USA to make ammends, but Israel can still pay back their moral debts to those they have so very wronged.

........not gonna hold my breath.

 

[BabyHeadedMan]

Gdnp, with all due respect, you are comparing apples to oranges here. Are there any Israeli citizens, extrajudicially killed by Israelis, because they were suspected of being Hamas collaborators? The list you provided are Palestinians killed during war, is that correct?

On this subject, it is appropriate to refer to the opinion expressed by Human Rights Watch in their statement entitled "Israel: End 'Liquidations' of Palestinian Suspects." Here it is reproduced below:

Human Rights Watch urged Prime Minister Ehud Barak to halt Israel's policy of "liquidation" of Palestinians suspected of attacks on Israeli security forces and civilians.

"This is in essence a policy of killing without public accountability," said Hanny Megally, executive director of Human Rights Watch's Middle East and North Africa division. "The Prime Minister of Israel is effectively acting as prosecutor, judge, and jury, in a secret process where the death sentence can't be appealed."

Israeli officials have argued that the individuals designated for "liquidation" are legitimate military targets, but have not made public any evidence to substantiate this claim. Decisions to kill particular individuals have not been subject to any transparent civilian or military review, raising concerns that civilians may be among those being targeted for death.

Human Rights Watch expressed concern that in several cases the killings took place in areas under Israeli control, where it may have been possible to arrest suspects. In at least one case where Israel claims its forces did attempt to arrest a suspect, he was gunned down in suspicious circumstances.

"Israel has previously disregarded essential safeguards against summary executions," Megally said. "This policy fosters a climate in which Israeli security forces may resort to lethal force in cases where non-lethal means of apprehending suspects are readily available."

Human Rights Watch also called on Prime Minister Barak to order a full review of the policy to ensure that no civilians have been deliberately targeted. The organization urged the government to establish a commission of inquiry to whether it would have been possible to incapacitate those killed by non-lethal means, and whether steps were taken to minimize injury to civilians and civilian property. Those responsible for wrongdoing should be brought to justice or disciplined, and the victims compensated.

 

[gdnp]

Do I understand you to be excusing executions merely based on allegations, no legal counsel, no trial, no appeal? Dear God, you really need to recalibrate your moral compass.

I do not favor extrajudicial killings. However, if bombs and missiles aimed at you were falling and had killed your family, what would you do if you discovered the spy who was tipping off the enemy to your position? Arrest the traitor and hold him for trial, or kill him and get the hell out? If Hamas were to hold such people for public trial, would Israel guarantee that they would not assassinate the judge, police, and prosecutor?

Were all the people killed by Hamas feeding intelligence to Israel? Probably not. Were some of them? Probably. Then again, were all the Palestinians killed by Israeli snipers, missiles, and exploding cell phones terrorists? Probably not. Were some of them? Probably.

 

[Marc39]

You mean like...an extra-judicial killing??

Why Israel would NEVER do something like that. They would never..ever..assassinate someone. They believe in innocent until proven guilty, trial by a jury of one's peers, and fair punishment.

Oh, wait a second:

* [FONT=&quot][/FONT] 1.[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]Hussein Muhammad Salim ‘Abayat, age 34, killed on November 9, 2000, in Beit Sahur by a missile fired on his car from an Israeli helicopter.
2.[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]Jamal ‘Abd al-Qader Hassan ‘Abd a-Razeq, age 33, killed on November 11, 2000, at Morag junction in The Gaza Strip by Israeli tank-fire aimed at his car.
3.[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]Ibrahim ‘Abd al-Qarim Bani ‘Oda, age 33, killed on November 23, 2000 in Nablus by a bomb planted in his car by a collaborator.
4. Anwar Mahmud Ahmad Khimran, age 28, killed on December 11, 2000, in Nablus by IDF sniper gunfire from a distance of 300 meters when standing at the university gate in Nablus.
5. Yusef Ahmad Mahmud Abu Sawi, age 28, killed on December 12, 2000, in al-Khader/Bethlehem District by IDF sniper gunfire when standing outside his house.
6. ‘Abas Ahmad al-‘Awiwi, age 27, killed on December 13, 2000, in central Hebron by IDF sniper gunfire.
7. Hani Hussein Abu Bakra, age 31, killed on December 14, 2000, at Gush Katif junction after soldiers stopped the car he was in, asked him to step out and then shot him.
8. Sa’ad Ibrahim Taha al-Kharuf, age 32, killed on December 14, 2000, in Burin village/Nablus District, shot after having gone out to help an acquaintance whose car had broken down.
9. Thabat Ahmad Thabat, age 48, killed on December 31, 2000, in Tulkarm by sniper gunfire aimed at his car when he was leaving his house.


·[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]During the assassination of Hussein ‘Abayat on November 9, 2000, two women were killed: 52-year-old ‘Aziza Muhammad Danun and 52-year-old Rahma Rashid Shahin.
·[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]During the assassination of Jamal ‘Abd a-Razeq on November 22, 2000 three Palestinians were killed: 38-year-old ‘Awni Isma’il Dhaher, 20-year-old Na’al Shehadeh a-Lidawi and 30-year-old Sami Nasser Abu Laban.
·[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]During the assassination of Hani Abu Bakra, on December 14, 2000, 40-year-old ‘Abdallah ‘Isa ‘Abdallah Kanan was seriously wounded. He died on December 23.


And lets not forget the old Hamas leader, Sheikh Yassin.


Maybe Israel needs to recalibrate its....moral compass?


Do they even have one??????????????????????

As I posted in the Israel/Apartheid thread, in which you tried to mislead everyone with the allegation of "Jew-Only" roads in Israel that, turns out, you never saw, that don't exist, your credibility is tainted.

 

[Thunder]

As I posted in the Israel/Apartheid thread, in which you tried to mislead everyone with the allegation of "Jew-Only" roads in Israel that, turns out, you never saw, that don't exist, your credibility is tainted.

My credibility? Those names and descriptions are from B'Tselem...not I.

Israel has murdered SUSPECTED Palestinian terrorists..again again.

No trial, no jury, no judge. Just a bullet in the head.

Don't talk to us about the IDF's moral compass. They clearly have none.

If CNN and the BBC did not exist, I have no doubt the IDF would murder every male in Gaza over the age of 16. And you would support it.

 

[Marc39]

I do not favor extrajudicial killings.

That's very progressive of you. What about, say, just shooting their kneecaps off without a trial, a customary Hamas practice. Is that kosher?

However, if bombs and missiles aimed at you were falling and had killed your family, what would you do if you discovered the spy who was tipping off the enemy to your position?

In Hamastan, you just whack 'em, like they do on the Sopranos.

Arrest the traitor

"Alleged" traitor. You would never be able to live in Israel, too much of that cumbersome democracy there.

and hold him for trial, or kill him and get the hell out?

That whole judicial process thing can be such an inconvenience at times.

If Hamas were to hold such people for public trial...

If my grandmother had wheels, she'd be a trolley car.

 

[Tin Foil Timothy]

My credibility? Those names and descriptions are from B'Tselem...not I.

Israel has murdered SUSPECTED Palestinian terrorists..again again.

No trial, no jury, no judge. Just a bullet in the head.

Don't talk to us about the IDF's moral compass. They clearly have none.

If CNN and the BBC did not exist, I have no doubt the IDF would murder every male in Gaza over the age of 16. And you would support it.

I doubt they'd be bothered by some arbitrary age limit. never been an issue in the past.

 

[Tin Foil Timothy]

Lame response.

Grow up.

Two wrongs do not make a right. Unless of course you're one of those bigoted people who believe one of the wrongs is right and the only way you can try and justify it is by using a single cell dilution by citing other wrongs.

Not in 200 years, not in 2,000 years will the Arabs move on from their deep-seated hatred of Jews and the desire to drive them into the sea. Changing their attitude toward the Jews would serve the entire Middle East well, and the world, and might help the Arabs lift themselves out of the 7th century.

'drive them into the sea'

Using that old catchphrase is a dead giveaway. Straight out the crèche level Sony "My First Zionist Apology' booklet.

Doesn't it ever occur to you that the Palestinians have a legitimate case against Israel which is not based upon anything to do with people being Jewish, but from a simple case of being persecuted.

Making this a Jewish issue is the agenda of bigots. You see in others what you see in yourself. You have clearly demonstrated a bigotry against the Palestinians.

 

[gdnp]

As I posted in the Israel/Apartheid thread, in which you tried to mislead everyone with the allegation of "Jew-Only" roads in Israel that, turns out, you never saw, that don't exist, your credibility is tainted.

Translation: "Nyah Nyah Nyah Nyah... I'm not listening..."

That's very progressive of you. What about, say, just shooting their kneecaps off without a trial, a customary Hamas practice. Is that kosher?

Nope. What about blowing off the heads of alleged terrorists with booby-trapped cell phones?

"Alleged" traitor. You would never be able to live in Israel, too much of that cumbersome democracy there.

LOL.

Democracy has nothing to do with it. Nazi Germany started out as a democracy. What is in question is the rule of law. Standard procedures are not always possible to maintain in times of war. Even the US, bastion of "democracy", allows for the suspension of habeus corpus during times of war, and allows for the declaration of martial law.

One has a much greater justification for such suspensions when one's government institutions have been destroyed. There were several reported cases, for example, of alleged spies being shot in a hospital by Hamas gunmen. Why were the alleged spies in the hospital? They were taken there after Israel had bombed the prison where they were being held. What would you do in such a situation if you were Hamas? Let the spies go? Not likely. It's not like you can send them back to prison to await trial: the prison is a pile of rubble.

That whole judicial process thing can be such an inconvenience at times.

As Israel has so often demonstrated. What is their excuse for extrajudicial executions?

If my grandmother had wheels, she'd be a trolley car.[/QUOTE]
And if you had a cogent argument, I assume you would make it.

 

[Marc39]

Doesn't it ever occur to you that the Palestinians have a legitimate case against Israel which is not based upon anything to do with people being Jewish, but from a simple case of being persecuted.

You need to seriously educate yourself on the history of the Middle East, in general, and the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, in particular, in order to benefit from a more balanced and accurate understanding of the current conflict. Start by reading up on the Hebron Massacre of 1929, then read about that barrel of fun the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, an early Palestinian leader with an allegiance to Hitler, Goring and Himmler. Then get back to me about who's been persecuting whom.

 

[portlandatheist]

How is that a crime against humanity? It's a series of murders against Palestinians by a local criminal gang.

No skin off my arse.

DR

Wow, I step away from JREF for awhile and my thread gains new life. The point of this thread is that the Palestinians deserve, just as all human beings deserve, legal protection and these are clearly extra judicial murders. I'm sure some of these people were guilty and some were not, but unfortunately, without the benefit of a court of law, we will never know. The anti Israel crowd, isn't so much concerned about the welfare of Palestinians, as they are with their critique of Israel. That is the whole point of this thread. Palestinians killed by Israelis are a huge concern to them but who cares about those killed by Hamas? Will they stand up for their rights? Not the anti Israeli crowd, their concern for the Palestinians is superficial and limited to care only for those killed my Israel.
And yes, Palestinians have been killed by Israelis without benefit of a judicial trial IN THE CONTEXT OF WAR, comparing those killed with the Hamas killings is really comparing apples to oranges. The equivalent would be Israel killing Israeli citizens suspected of sympathizing with Hamas of which I've seen no evidence and would condemn equally. I certainly wouldn't accuse a Palestinian of "extra judicial killings" for shooting and killing IDF soldiers in the Gaza strip nor would I criticize them for doing so in the context of war which would certainly be the case when IDF soldiers are in their territory.

 

[BabyHeadedMan]

And yes, Palestinians have been killed by Israelis without benefit of a judicial trial IN THE CONTEXT OF WAR, comparing those killed with the Hamas killings is really comparing apples to oranges.

Again, this is quite incorrect; please read the HRW statement in my post above.

 

[Marc39]

Again, this is quite incorrect; please read the HRW statement in my post above.

Is HRW an international tribunal? Answer: No, it is not.

 

[BabyHeadedMan]

Is HRW an international tribunal? Answer: No, it is not.

HRW is widely considered to be one of the foremost authorities on the issue of human rights. Their opinions and research are frequently referenced in serious scholarly papers and books. If you have a source more reliable and more respectable that contradicts their findings, then I'd like to see it.

 

[Marc39]

HRW is widely considered to be one of the foremost authorities on the issue of human rights. Their opinions and research are frequently referenced in serious scholarly papers and books. If you have a source more reliable and more respectable that contradicts their findings, then I'd like to see it.

Depends on where you're coming from. HRW has a lengthy, documented history of anti-Israel bias, which I can document for you, as well, if you'd like. Further, HRW's techniques for obtaining information leading to their pronouncements against Israel are seriously flawed in that they are based on "eyewitness accounts" which subjects HRW up to those with hidden agendas against Israel. HRW is vulnerable to being a propaganda tool. By the way, HRW was recently taken to task for ignoring verifiable war crimes committed by Hamas and its response was that they don't focus on Hamas so much because, in effect, they basically expect Hamas to committ crimes. Be careful who you rely on for third-party information pertaining to events in the Middle East, that's all I can say.

 

[BabyHeadedMan]

Depends on where you're coming from. HRW has a lengthy, documented history of anti-Israel bias, which I can document for you, as well, if you'd like. Further, HRW's techniques for obtaining information leading to their pronouncements against Israel are seriously flawed in that they are based on "eyewitness accounts" which subjects HRW up to those with hidden agendas against Israel. HRW is vulnerable to being a propaganda tool. By the way, HRW was recently taken to task for ignoring verifiable war crimes committed by Hamas and its response was that they don't focus on Hamas so much because, in effect, they basically expect Hamas to committ crimes. Be careful who you rely on for third-party information pertaining to events in the Middle East, that's all I can say.

What does noting Israel's inability to produce evidence showing that their liquidations were legitimate military targets have to do with "eyewitness accounts"? As I said, until I can be provided information from a source of higher quality to convince me my perspective is wrong, I'm going to trust in HRW's assessment.

 

[gdnp]

HRW has a lengthy, documented history of anti-Israel bias, which I can document for you, as well, if you'd like.

Please do.

BTW, bias means publishing false or misleading statements about Israeli actions. A list of Palestinian crimes they have not denounced does not count.

 

[portlandatheist]

On this subject, it is appropriate to refer to the opinion expressed by Human Rights Watch in their statement entitled "Israel: End 'Liquidations' of Palestinian Suspects." Here it is reproduced below:

Can you provide me the link so I can read the whole thing?

 

[Marc39]

Can you provide me the link so I can read the whole thing?

I'm not able to post links, yet. However, information refuting HRW it's easily searchable. I'll try to post information that may not be electronically accessible, if I have a chance later. I'm also trying to live a life.

 

[Marc39]

What does noting Israel's inability to produce evidence showing that their liquidations were legitimate military targets have to do with "eyewitness accounts"? As I said, until I can be provided information from a source of higher quality to convince me my perspective is wrong, I'm going to trust in HRW's assessment.

Israel is under no obligation to provide HRW with anything, particularly given HRW's history of anti-Israel bias. Targeted assassinations, under specific circumstances, are legal. The US has engaged in the practice in the past and has been seeking members of Al Qaeda for targeted assassinaton. Israel has the same rights in this regard as the US. iAs for the misleading statement made by a HRW spokesman, "This is in essence a policy of killing without public accountability," targeted assassinations in Israel must be approved by a senior Israeli official, so, he is wrong as there is full accountability. An illustration of making negative pronouncements against Israel based on counterfactual informaton.