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Greta Thunberg - brave campaigner or deeply disturbed? Part II.

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What sort of capital outlay have they made for that improvement? It's one thing to ask everyone to move to more efficient energy use, but another to exxpect the majority of the population to expend significant sums with no hope of a financial payback in even the medium term, never mind the short term.

edit - isn't this getting a little far from the thread topic?

It's the nature of the topic. Greta has repudiated gradualism. People want to be fans of Greta, but they shy away from her drastic policy prescriptions. This talk of incremental improvements in the ownership of automobiles is as close as some can sail to Greta's harsh wind. The only real question is whether this veering around Greta's gyre should count as virtue, in the context of her demands.
 
What sort of capital outlay have they made for that improvement? It's one thing to ask everyone to move to more efficient energy use, but another to exxpect the majority of the population to expend significant sums with no hope of a financial payback in even the medium term, never mind the short term.

edit - isn't this getting a little far from the thread topic?

The capital outlay ranges from a few hundred pounds to several thousand but these are well to do people for whom spending £10k on a holiday is something they'd do once or twice a year without blinking an eye.
 
It's the nature of the topic. Greta has repudiated gradualism. People want to be fans of Greta, but they shy away from her drastic policy prescriptions. This talk of incremental improvements in the ownership of automobiles is as close as some can sail to Greta's harsh wind. The only real question is whether this veering around Greta's gyre should count as virtue, in the context of her demands.

Why isn't this an example of her supporting some gradualism?
 
Why isn't this an example of her supporting some gradualism?

Because it's an example of TheDon supporting some gradualism.

But I concede that as she has matured, Greta has backed away somewhat from the more radical demands of her youth. She's more moderate now than when her fans first fell in love with her "how dare you" rhetoric, even as they steadfastly ignored the fact that it was aimed directly at them. Even as they're steadfastly ignoring it even now.
 
Because it's an example of TheDon supporting some gradualism.

But I concede that as she has matured, Greta has backed away somewhat from the more radical demands of her youth. She's more moderate now than when her fans first fell in love with her "how dare you" rhetoric, even as they steadfastly ignored the fact that it was aimed directly at them. Even as they're steadfastly ignoring it even now.

Any evidence for this?
 
Other that ">>reset<<", anybody got a better explanation for this quote?



Link

So no takers ? Pity.

I know it's difficult trying to plot a path from 50 gigatons to zero even when coloring outside the lines is allowed. Sure you start off thinking that the Chinese are onto something by having the workers at the solar panel factory not only work there but live and eat there as well. You close your eyes and think....mmmm no commute and dream of the environmental and community benefits of such an arrangement.

Then slowly, as your thoughts progress, the true horror of the world you're creating dawns on you and you fall to your knees in a wail of anguish then bring your hands together in a gesture of supplication and beg Saint Greta to forgive you for the inexcusable sins you knowingly committed as a white cis male.

PS...why are we writing it as >>reset<< ? Is that some sort of weird British thing like saying pip pip, tally ho old chap and drinking warm beer or is there some other meaning?
 
Soccer is a euro pansy liberal snow flake sport in god guns babies land of the lord’s true football, yeehaw! Pew, pew pew!

I know eh? have you ever seen those guys take a dive? The grannies at the knotting cirlce down the block are tougher than them. ;)
 
Being interested in saving money would be a precursor to any interest in reducing their carbon footprint.

People who buy Hummers aren't interested in saving money.
'Saving money' isn't the only reason to go low-carbon. Demand for GMC's two new electric Hummer models is so high that they are sold out for the next 2 years.

Nobody's buying one of these to save money. Some might be buying it partly to assuage their guilt over being big carbon emitters, but most are buying it for the incredible performance and handling. This is a good thing.

It has been argued that electric Hummers aren't doing much to save the planet because they are much less efficient than lighter vehicles. But this misses the point. People will still buy Hummers whether they are fossil fueled or electric. By buying electric they are doing two things:-

1. producing a lot less less carbon than they would otherwise.

2. Making electric cars in general more acceptable.

When even frickin' Hummers are electric, it's a lot harder for the average Joe to argue that electric cars don't have what it takes. How this will change the general public's attitude to electric vehicles is far more important than the minuscule amount of reduced carbon emissions.

Some people buy Hummers as a status symbol. Others buy them because they need a vehicle with its capabilities. In both cases convincing them to buy electric is a major win for the planet. Not because it reduces their carbon footprint (which is very low because very few people drive one) but because it helps persuade people buying 'ordinary' cars to go electric too. It's the billions of mainstream SUV owners that we really need to win over.

People who buy electric Hummers have far more influence than they might think. They might not think they are saving money either, but they probably are. Electricity is a lot cheaper than gas in most places, and the gap will widen even further in the future. When driving off-road electric can be even more efficient (as well as quieter and more controllable). So electric Hummer owners can expect to save a lot in fuel costs. They also need much less maintenance, saving even more money.

You are right to say that (in general) people who buy Hummers aren't interested in saving money. But that doesn't mean they won't buy electric because they don't have saving money as a 'precursor'. If they calculated it they would find that they could indeed save quite a bit, which even rich people don't necessarily ignore (they didn't usually get there by not being careful with their money). In most cases though the savings would just be bonus - not the main reason they bought a Hummer, but perhaps a factor.

Saving money is just one possible reason out of many for reducing your carbon footprint. It's an important one though, because most people consider saving money to be imporatant. Even rich people still take it into consideration. Very few people are so rich that cost is unimportant to them. An electric Hummer costs US$100,000. If you are in the top 10% that might be affordable, especially when the ongoing savings are factored in. The gas version might not.
 
The capital outlay ranges from a few hundred pounds to several thousand but these are well to do people for whom spending £10k on a holiday is something they'd do once or twice a year without blinking an eye.

Its not only that. With soaring prices for gas and electricity from traditional sources, payback can happen in a matter of years. Insulation and solar panels, with government subsidies can cost as little as $2000 in Australia. Double glazing costs more, but you will get your money back. These decisions are being made for economic reasons, not altruistic reasons.
 
Its not only that. With soaring prices for gas and electricity from traditional sources, payback can happen in a matter of years. Insulation and solar panels, with government subsidies can cost as little as $2000 in Australia. Double glazing costs more, but you will get your money back. These decisions are being made for economic reasons, not altruistic reasons.

How many years on average?

How much outlay on average?

How quickly will you get your money back on double glazing on average?

Quoting vague best case scenarios is little better than selling snake oil.
 
How many years on average?

How much outlay on average?

How quickly will you get your money back on double glazing on average?

Quoting vague best case scenarios is little better than selling snake oil.

Sounds to me like someone trying to sell solar panels or insulation..

See if you can get them to put the pay-back numbers in writing..

I'm not saying any of the mitigation steps are a bad idea, it's just that the masses do not have the resources to make it happen in the kind of time frame Greta is calling for.

Those who do have the resources ( those who buy electric Hummers ) don't want to give up the bigger part of their carbon footprint.
 
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Sounds to me like someone trying to sell solar panels or insulation..

See if you can get them to put the pay-back numbers in writing..

I'm not saying any of the mitigation steps are a bad idea, it's just that the masses do not have the resources to make it happen in the kind of time frame Greta is calling for.

Those who do have the recourses ( those who buy electric Hummers ) don't want to give up the bigger part of their carbon footprint.

I have a vague feeling that Greta knows these things.
 
I have a vague feeling that Greta knows these things.

The totally knows these things and that's why she wants your government to shut off the tap, so you'll be forced to adapt to her new reality. All this flying around, buying stuff, driving around in personal automobiles is completely over rated.

There is, in reality, absolutely no reason to believe that the necessary changes will make us less happy or less satisfied. If we manage to do this right, then our lives will be given more meaning than selfish, shallow over-consumption can ever give us. Instead, we can make time and space for community, solidarity, and love—the true tenets of a good life.

This is what a system wide transformation looks like.
 
The totally knows these things and that's why she wants your government to shut off the tap, so you'll be forced to adapt to her new reality. All this flying around, buying stuff, driving around in personal automobiles is completely over rated.

There is, in reality, absolutely no reason to believe that the necessary changes will make us less happy or less satisfied. If we manage to do this right, then our lives will be given more meaning than selfish, shallow over-consumption can ever give us. Instead, we can make time and space for community, solidarity, and love—the true tenets of a good life.
This is what a system wide transformation looks like.

When we're not working in the factory attached to the barracks block we live in...
 
When we're not working in the factory attached to the barracks block we live in...

Yes, exactly because saving the climate means changing how we live. No commute would allow for "extra" time to devote to production living communally would help create that community, solidarity, and love. It's a win all around for both people and planet.

The scientific evidence is crystal clear, our leaders have left it too late for us to avoid major lifestyle and systemic changes. If we are to have a chance of minimizing further irreparable damage, we now have to choose: either we safeguard living conditions for all future generations, or we let a few very fortunate people (the 10%)maintain their constant, destructive search to maximize immediate profits.
 
We now have 1 full year's worth of data since the COP26 pledge of reducing anthropogenic methane 30% by 2030 was made in October, 2021.

The results? Methane is up by over 12 ppb to a new all-time high.

China and India have not signed the pledge.


Signing pledges? Sounds like some elementary school fund raiser..

We need to outlaw methane NOW!
 
Signing pledges? Sounds like some elementary school fund raiser..

We need to outlaw methane NOW!

Soon we may be living in a wonderfully glorious gas stove free world where we all commune in the kitchen and cooperatively prepare our delicious vegan meals over the warm clean glow of electric elements powered solely by the solar panels made in the factory we all work in. :)

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one
 
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