Ivor the Engineer
Penultimate Amazing
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How dare you celebrate the shooting of a person who espoused controversial views!
Cont: Greta Thunberg - brave campaigner or deeply disturbed - part 3
- Thread starter theprestige
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theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
Blockade running is a bad faith act. They don't get to claim the moral high ground from their critics.
And I do think it's a reasonable assumption. Thunberg has given no sign that she has done any due diligence about this flotilla. Not that it's necessarily her job. But if she hasn't verified it for herself, then she's vouching for something she doesn't actually know.
Noted. The way I see it, Hamas will certainly receive support from the sea, if that route is left open to them. That is all that I need, to conclude that Israel's blockade of Hamas's sea route is a legitimate military strategy.
And the fact that Israel is in fact letting (vouched for, inspected) aid into Gaza is all I need to know, to conclude that it is wrong to characterize the blockade as "genocide."
Noted. Not sure what that has to do with the question of whether she's been groomed or duped into giving support to something she shouldn't.
And yes, I do think what she's doing is bad. I think the flotilla is bad, and I think she's done a bad thing in endorsing it. I think attempting to run the Israeli blockade of Gaza, rather than routing aid through the established inspection points, is objectively pro-Hamas in nature, no matter how noble its proponents try to make it sound.
So? Adults can be groomed and duped too. That said, I doubt anyone is actively grooming her these days. My hypothesis is that her naivete is being exploited by bad people.
I get that you believe the blockade is supremely evil, and that anyone attempting to thwart it must therefore be good of heart, committed to saving innocent lives without giving Hamas itself an iota of aid or comfort. I just don't share your belief, which is why I don't respect Thunberg for attaching herself to this endeavor, the way you respect her for doing so.
And remember that "drone attack" on her boat, in Tunisia? It turns out that at least some of her comrades in the flotilla are idiots, or liars, or both. To me, this is legitimate cause for concern, that at least one of the fifty boats has been compromised by pro-Hamas agents in some way. Because why *wouldn't* pro-Hamas agents want to compromise a flotilla of self-righteous, virtue-signaling idiots who are trying to run the anti-Hamas blockade?
I dunno. Clearly you want to believe Thunberg has taken effective measures to avoid being associated with such a thing.
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena, Pronouns: he/him
Calling her an adult while still infantilising her is not helping your case.
You've never respected her for anything.
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
Adults can act childishly too. It's not infantilization to expect an adult to accept adult responsibility for their childish behavior. When a child acts childishly, it's understood and excused, because they're a child. When an adult acts childishly, they are rightly criticized for it, because they're an adult. Greta Thunberg is an adult. I'm not infantilizing her by criticizing her childish behavior. If anyone is infantilizing Greta Thunberg, it's Greta Thunberg.
On the contrary. I've respected her for quite a lot, espcially her commitment, eloquence, and courage in speaking out on the topic of global climate change, a subject of grave concern for her. I just don't respect her for anything she's done lately.
The Great Zaganza
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If you don't get the moral high ground for delivering food to starving people at great personal risk and cost, what do you get the moral high ground for????
The flotilla is unquestionably in the Moral Right, and anyone trying to block it is morally, and legally, wrong.
The flotilla is unquestionably in the Moral Right, and anyone trying to block it is morally, and legally, wrong.
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theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
Begging the question that these deliveries really are nothing but food. Also begging the question that any of it will get to the starving people of Gaza.
Not trying to run the blockade, but rather delivering the aid to the established checkpoints for inspection and delivery. Which, incidentally, would deliver more aid for less personal risk and cost.
If the Gaza coast is left unguarded, Hamas will receive support via that route. Therefore, it is moral for Israel to blockade the Gaza coast. Therefore, it is immoral for anyone to try to undermine or flout the blockade. Trying to run the blockade is objectively pro-Hamas. Being pro-Hams is not moral.
Nobody in this thread says they want to help Hamas. A lot of people in this thread are, like Greta Thunberg, wildly in favor of things that help Hamas. I'll leave it to you to decide whether Thunberg is childishly choosing not to examine the implications of her actions, or if she really does hope Hamas will prevail against Israel in Gaza.
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The Great Zaganza
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by what right does Israel get to inspect goods coming into Gaza not across their borders?
Seriously, do the test and see if you would think the same if this was anyone but Israel doing the starvation and genocide.
Seriously, do the test and see if you would think the same if this was anyone but Israel doing the starvation and genocide.
Skeptical Greg
Agave Wine Connoisseur
Why would anyone but Israel be going it?
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
The same right any belligerent has, to cut off its aggressor's supply lines. The same right the US had, to blockade the secessionist states during the American Civil war. The same right Ukraine has, to strike railways, factories, shipyards, and oil infrastructure deep within Russia.
Clearly I do think the same about anyone else. And of course I don't think the blockade is starvation and genocide. I think it's a necessary and legitimate military expedient, to cut off Hamas's supply lines. If you can think of a way to prevent Hamas getting being supplied from the sea, without a blockade, without routing supplies through checkpoints, suggest it! Right now it just looks like you don't want to cut off Hamas, and are willing to level any hateful lies you can, to try to defend your position.
Meanwhile, Greta Thunberg's theatrics help nobody but Hamas. I wonder who's been encouraging her to indulge in them.
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arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena, Pronouns: he/him
They're not nothing but food. They're also water and medical supplies.
It's well-established that Israel is severely restricting the amounts of aid that can be delivered through the established checkpoints to starvation levels. Delivering aid to established checkpoints would ensure that none of it gets to the starving people of Gaza.
She's trying to save Palestinian lives and alleviate suffering caused by deliberate famine. You are, again, assuming the worst of her.
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
You have no way of knowing what's actually in those shipments. As far as I can tell, neither does the Brave Campaigner.
If your conspiracy theory is correct, then trying to run the blockade will ensure the exact same outcome.
That's what she's trying to do. What she's actually doing is supporting Hamas. Undermining the blockade benefits Hamas.
You don't want to benefit Hamas. You do want G-Thunder to undermine the anti-Hamas blockade. You have yet to reconcile this contradiction in your stated goals.
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena, Pronouns: he/him
What she's actually doing is trying to get aid to starving and suffering people, which Israel does not want. You are reinterpreting everything she does maliciously and in bad faith because you hate her and everything she stands for. Your attitude towards her has been clear from your first post in this thread.
ETA: when you didn't even know who she was.
ETA: when you didn't even know who she was.
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Skeptical Greg
Agave Wine Connoisseur
That post was pretty neutral.
theprestige' Attitude is much clearer now than it was then.
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena, Pronouns: he/him
He started with disdain. When he found out who she was and what she was doing, he progressed to contempt.
Skeptical Greg
Agave Wine Connoisseur
I really don't hear the contempt. I guess it's a matter of perspective.
PS
You, on the other hand, come across as a groupie or fanboy.
PS
You, on the other hand, come across as a groupie or fanboy.
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arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena, Pronouns: he/him
Guilty as charged.
The rules of warfare are cruel and necessarily don't put the innocent children in front of the warring faction when choosing an action.
That's weakness that gives that warring faction an edge. If you want to defeat them you take everything away from them.
But at least do for the innocence what doesn't kill your own plan.
Hamas is using human shields all the time. Using civilian infrastructure to shield themselves from attack.
.
It's war, the IDF and Hamas are both playing to win. Isreal didn't start this war. Hamas fired missiles into them first. They had to respond. To save the innocent stop the ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ war. That's it.
Stop putting HQ in the basement of a hotel or hospital. Stop firing at each other as if it's the only option.
Nothing is fair in war. The only way Palestinians can win is turning on the extremists and terrorists among themselves. The religious zealots that don't care innocents die because they are the actions of thier version of Allah.
Some activist is but a tiny side note in this mess, neither side will flinch if the boat she is on blows up. They have nations to worry over. Bigger ideals to fight for.
This war in the middle east has been killing people for centuries. From the crusades to current times there has been wars over religious bs there.
It had been relatively calm until recently too, until Hamas started this war.
Point the fingers at them to end this.
That's weakness that gives that warring faction an edge. If you want to defeat them you take everything away from them.
But at least do for the innocence what doesn't kill your own plan.
Hamas is using human shields all the time. Using civilian infrastructure to shield themselves from attack.
.
It's war, the IDF and Hamas are both playing to win. Isreal didn't start this war. Hamas fired missiles into them first. They had to respond. To save the innocent stop the ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ war. That's it.
Stop putting HQ in the basement of a hotel or hospital. Stop firing at each other as if it's the only option.
Nothing is fair in war. The only way Palestinians can win is turning on the extremists and terrorists among themselves. The religious zealots that don't care innocents die because they are the actions of thier version of Allah.
Some activist is but a tiny side note in this mess, neither side will flinch if the boat she is on blows up. They have nations to worry over. Bigger ideals to fight for.
This war in the middle east has been killing people for centuries. From the crusades to current times there has been wars over religious bs there.
It had been relatively calm until recently too, until Hamas started this war.
Point the fingers at them to end this.
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena, Pronouns: he/him
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
I'm sure that's what she thinks she's trying to do.
Kind of hard to reconcile this claim with Israel sending aid into Gaza.
What Israel doesn't want is uninspected aid packages going into Hamas-controlled territory. I'm sure you can understand the reasonableness of this concern, and the paramount importance of not leaving Hamas with uncontrolled access from the Med.
The more I've learned about her, the more I've come to respect her passion and bravery, and the less I've come to respect how she chooses to apply it. And of course I've never had much respect for the stanning of her ineffective-when-not-counter-productive brand of cargo-cult activism.
Trying to run the blockade helps nobody but Hamas. There is no moral justification for trying to get aid packages into Gaza uninspected.
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
In other news, G-Thun has been removed from/stepped down from the steering committee of the flotilla. She's left the committee's boat - the one that was "attacked" by a "drone" - and taken a berth on one of the other boats in the flotilla. Make of that what you will. Maybe she realized that the committee was more interested in undermining Israel than in getting aid to Gaza.