Great, no "Afterlife"?

[BillyJoe]

I agree that it is a different question, but it is only now that I see that the question was exclusively for people who have believed in the afterlife at some point.

Yes, I should have made that clear but I figured it was implied in the question. Nevertheless, your imput has been interesting.

In which case I am not sure if I qualify, because as a small child I was a firm believer in God, but for reasons I cannot explain I never took the afterlife serious. Perhaps the vision of harp-playing angels in heaven was too improbable for me even at that early state. I accepted the teachings, but I did not truly believe. As I grew, I just grew out of my religion, and I did not really notice. There was no cheerfulness or sadness because there was no heaven (nobody really believe they will go to hell, despite the bible clearly stating that only a tiny fraction of us will go to heaven). The thought that there would be nothing after death just came naturally to me, and I did not feel any emotions at all.

You are indeed a lucky fellow, Steen. I wish I had your history.

BJ

 

[BillyJoe]

Re: Ladewig's observation is intriguing

sacket,

Let me do a little imagining: Maybe you can take a nap in the next world, who knows? But when you've had your nap you'll wake up, and face the endlessness of eternity again. Awakening to that would become hell for most of us -- no, I'm going to say for all of us.

This is exactly it for me. And I am convinced that those who choose to believe in an afterlife have not fully thought through the implications of living for all eternity. It is indeed a frightening thought.

Well, all right, maybe we can escape from the next world, who can say? That would be death, I think, and eventually we would all choose it. Yes indeedy, every sainted one of us. We need our sleep.

Yes, indeed, we need our terminal sleep.

I don't feel quite cheerful at the thought of there being no afterlife, but I'm comforted.

For me it was relief, comfort and not a little exhilaration.

BJ

 

[BillyJoe]

Your observation that I've NEVER believed in an afterlife is correct, and it's likely that this is the reason that I've never really attached any emotion to its existence or non-existence.

Like Steen, you are a lucky fellow, Anders.

 

[Anders W. Bonde]

Assuming for arguments sake that we are reborn: For all we know, we may then be reborn into the lives we have now - not all of which are pure bliss. So just being reborn does not guarantee happiness by a long way.

The concept of rebirth is not only absurd, it is plain silly: If you are reborn as anyone other than you, then you are no longer you - your experiences, memories and selfawareness - all the things that consitute yourself - are no longer yours. So you wouldn't even know that you were reborn! What's the point/potential attraction of being reborn if you can't recall and compare all your past lives?

 

[BillyJoe]

Of course, there could be nothing afterwards. Which is fine too, because I'll be dead and nothing and won't be able to care about the lack of an afterlife.

As I'm not dead yet, I can't really be concerned with the afterlife.

Nuts. But then I'm not sure how serious your post is.

 

[BillyJoe]

Vikram,

.....if after death, one were to be presented with the choice between completely ceasing to exist and going to a place where one could continue to exist in infinite happiness, how many would really choose the former? I, sure as hell, would choose the latter.[/B]

But you haven't considered that question about eternity posed in my reply to your first post. Have you thought through the implications of eternity? Would that change things for you do you think?

BJ

 

[Polux]

Assuming for arguments sake that we are reborn: For all we know, we may then be reborn into the lives we have now - not all of which are pure bliss. So just being reborn does not guarantee happiness by a long way.

The concept of rebirth is not only absurd, it is plain silly: If you are reborn as anyone other than you, then you are no longer you - your experiences, memories and selfawareness - all the things that consitute yourself - are no longer yours. So you wouldn't even know that you were reborn! What's the point/potential attraction of being reborn if you can't recall and compare all your past lives?

I agree. That makes the idea of reincarnation, at best, irrelevant.
It is useless to be told that you were person X in your previous life if you have not the slightest feeling that you were and that this life is a continuation. There is practically no difference between that and the (simpler) idea of a world without reincarnation.

 

[Legato]

I agree. That makes the idea of reincarnation, at best, irrelevant.
It is useless to be told that you were person X in your previous life if you have not the slightest feeling that you were and that this life is a continuation. There is practically no difference between that and the (simpler) idea of a world without reincarnation.

The groovy thing about reincarnation is that you get to hang out in the ether as a spirit with full knowledge of all your past lives, and if you do well enough, you eventually achieve Nirvana.

Putting aside the lack of physical evidence, there is no reason to be comforted by the thought of an afterlife. It could be eternally blissful, eternally terrible, or somewhere in between. There is no way of knowing if you are one of the "chosen", so I would have thought the chance of eternal torment would cast a greater shadow than the hope of eternal life. I'd rather know that I will cease to exist than tremble waiting for judgement.

Even allowing a chance of an afterlife, you can't go wrong living your life as if this were the only chance you get.

For the record, I do not think there is an afterlife.

 

[LostAngeles]

Nuts. But then I'm not sure how serious your post is.

I confess to sometimes wondering about what happens after I die, what the actual experience of death is like and so on. Then I remind myself that I've no real intention of dying anytime soon, but I will die and so eventually, I'll find out.

It's more or less my personal sense of pragmatism and a bit of humour about myself. I reasoned that if I died, and that was it, no more conciousness, well I couldn't really be upset. If there was an afterlife, then that's all right too. If I get reincarnated as different things with time to compare notes between lives, that'd be really fun.

But I'm not dead yet. To my knowledge, I'm not dying. I've spent more than enough time dwelling on the topic of death. When it happens, I'll know what the truth is. Until then, eh.

 

[Vikram]

Vikram,

But you haven't considered that question about eternity posed in my reply to your first post. Have you thought through the implications of eternity? Would that change things for you do you think?

BJ

You do raise a valid point here. I think the implications of eternity depend upon the the nature of the 'afterlife'. I suppose that if one were to be in heaven, which by its very definition is a place of 'happiness and peace forever', (I know... I know... the concept boggles the mind and sounds like something from a John Lennon song, but anyway...) then boredom would probably not be a feature of the mindset of the people there (simply because when someone is bored, that person is not happy) Hence an eternity in a place where happiness is guaranteed doesn't really seem like too bad a thing.

On the other hand, yes, I do agree that an afterlife fraught with the same kind of uncertainties that our day-to-day lives are filled with would become a thing of intense horror after the first few thousand years. As someone who has been born a Hindu, I can offer by way of interesting illustration the mythological character of Bhishma, a patriarchal figure who was given the choice to continue living on Earth until he decided that he did not wish to live any longer, at which point he muttered a chant and dropped dead. In fact, on similar lines, if I had to choose a custom afterlife, I would probably choose one that allowed me to continue existing for as long as I wanted with the ability to press the 'terminate' button if and when I pleased.

There's one angle to the desire to live beyond one's death that has truly not been brought up by anyone here. There are times when I am troubled about the fact that I will not be around to witness the technological advances that will take place a thousand years in the future, nor witness the music that will be composed or the art that will be created or the literature that will be penned. By dying, I will be denied an eternity of wonderment. Which is probably the primary reason why I think the concept of an afterlife is cheerful.

(Now, I know what you're going to say... What about the time when the Sun swallows the solar system and all humans are killed? What will you do after that happens?)

 

[BillyJoe]

I confess to sometimes wondering about what happens after I die, what the actual experience of death is like and so on. Then I remind myself that I've no real intention of dying anytime soon....

You must be in your twenties then?

.....but I will die and so eventually, I'll find out.

Not if there is no afterlife you won't.

It's more or less my personal sense of pragmatism and a bit of humour about myself. I reasoned that if I died, and that was it, no more conciousness, well I couldn't really be upset. If there was an afterlife, then that's all right too. If I get reincarnated as different things with time to compare notes between lives, that'd be really fun.

Hmmm.....I can't say that the afterlife question has ever been merely a side issue for me. I suppose that's from having attended strictly religious schools. Good luck to you for having missed that experience.

But I'm not dead yet. To my knowledge, I'm not dying. I've spent more than enough time dwelling on the topic of death. When it happens, I'll know what the truth is. Until then, eh.

Fair enough - but remember, if there is no afterlife, you will never know.

regards,
BillyJoe

 

[BillyJoe]

Vikram,

You do raise a valid point here. I think the implications of eternity depend upon the the nature of the 'afterlife'. I suppose that if one were to be in heaven, which by its very definition is a place of 'happiness and peace forever'.....then boredom would probably not be a feature of the mindset of the people there (simply because when someone is bored, that person is not happy) Hence an eternity in a place where happiness is guaranteed doesn't really seem like too bad a thing.

This is the thing. How can happiness be guaranteed in a place where time never ends. I am assuming that your brain will continue to function properly and that sooner or later the meaning of eternity ("the horror, the horror" to borrow a line from "Apolcalypse Now") will dawn on you. At that point you will wish you had died and that there was no afterlife. In other words, a place of eternal happiness is incompatible with a properly functioning mind. God would have to program into each and everyone of us not to think about the implications of living forever.

On the other hand, yes, I do agree that an afterlife fraught with the same kind of uncertainties that our day-to-day lives are filled with would become a thing of intense horror after the first few thousand years.

As I said, I think "the horror" is in eternity itself. It is truely a horrendous thought that time will go on and on and on, forever without end. Really, think about it. I don't mean what will or can happen during this time, I mean the very fact that it just goes on without ever ending. When you're faced with eternity, a trillion trillion trillion years is no even a beginning yet.

As someone who has been born a Hindu, I can offer by way of interesting illustration the mythological character of Bhishma, a patriarchal figure who was given the choice to continue living on Earth until he decided that he did not wish to live any longer, at which point he muttered a chant and dropped dead. In fact, on similar lines, if I had to choose a custom afterlife, I would probably choose one that allowed me to continue existing for as long as I wanted with the ability to press the 'terminate' button if and when I pleased.

There's one angle to the desire to live beyond one's death that has truly not been brought up by anyone here. There are times when I am troubled about the fact that I will not be around to witness the technological advances that will take place a thousand years in the future, nor witness the music that will be composed or the art that will be created or the literature that will be penned. By dying, I will be denied an eternity of wonderment. Which is probably the primary reason why I think the concept of an afterlife is cheerful.

Yes, okay, but give me Bhishma!

(Now, I know what you're going to say... What about the time when the Sun swallows the solar system and all humans are killed? What will you do after that happens?)

Now, who am I to spoil a good story.

BJ

 

[sackett]

Vikram is the man for this one

It's great to have someone with a Hindu perspective posting to this thread. The Abrahamic viewpoint often gets stale, and always lacks sophistication.

Take note that Hindu thinkers long ago faced the drawbacks of eternal life, and conceived of Nirvana as a "beingless existence," i.e., annihilation. One variation makes Nirvana an existence without desire, in other words a painless state of consciousness. Not bad; I might opt for that.

But the crudity of Christian/Moslem Heaven!

Scene: A fine morning in Paradise (is there any other kind?) ALMIGHTY GOD, cheerful as always, enters in a burst of celestial singing to find POOR ME sitting on the ground looking disconsolate.

AG: Hey! Why so long in the chops, former sinner? It's a great day to be in Heaven! Hah hah hah!

PM: I dunno, God, I guess I'm just feelin' crummy.

AG: No need for that! Haw haw haw! Whyn't you go over and look down into Hell for awhile? Watching damned souls fry always perks Me up! (Not that -I- need it.) A change is as good as a rest! Har har har!

PM: Aw, I done that for about two million years, maybe aeons. Gets old.

AG (looking sly): -I- know what it is (-I- know everything, right?). You need summa that nice virgin nookey! That'll put a smile in yer soul! Hee hee hee!

PM: Jeeze, it ain't that! I already tried the 699,999,999 variations for at least a billion repetitions! If I hear "Ooooh, do it again, big boy!" one more time, I'm gonna puke!

AG: Then tune up and play your harp! C'mon, give us a chorus of "Oh You Are So Wonderful, Good God Almighty!" -I- love that one! Ho ho ho!

PM: Nah, I'm just not in a music mood.

AG: Mood, you say? Heck, boy, -I- can fix that! (ALMIGHTY GOD touches POOR ME and twink! instantly my whole nature changes for all eternity and I'm helplessly happy from everlasting to everlasting, amen, selah, so be it. AG exits in another burst of celestial singing, looking mightily pleased with Himself.

 

[gjones2]

..."the horror, the horror" to borrow a line from "Apolcalypse Now"

If that's in "Apocalypse Now" (I didn’t see the movie), then I suspect that its writer did some borrowing himself -- those are Kurtz's final words in Conrad's "Heart of Darkness". As for the original question ("Do you find the idea of there being no afterlife cheerful?"), my answer is "No."

I'm a skeptic, but that doesn't mean that I'm happy about it. Let me remind you that the words "the horror, the horror" were spoken about this life -- and they express the way Kurtz felt when he realized that there was no redemption from its evil. When I reached the conclusion that there was no afterlife, that there's no salvation for those who suffer in this life (except by the clearly imperfect means of ordinary human intervention), that serial killers who torment their victims and are never caught will receive -- at the end of their lives (perhaps relatively happy lives) -- the same fate as their victims (nonexistence), that loved ones who have died are gone forever and will not be seen again in any form, that I myself, who appeared on this earth -- as far as I can tell -- for no reason that makes any sense, will end my life in the same meaningless way, that there's no hope for something better, and there will be no heaven -- eternal happiness -- instead the end will be annihilation -- no, I definitely cannot say that those thoughts "cheered" me.

I don't go around saying "the horror, the horror" all the time. I'm sometimes cheerful myself, but it's in spite of my loss of faith in an afterlife, not because of it.

 

[gjones2]

The question of whether it's plausible that there could be eternal happiness is separate. If you're assuming an afterlife in the first place, you're already assuming something that seems to go against reason and everything that we experience in our ordinary lives. In order for heaven to exist, it would have to transcend human reason and not operate by the laws of earthly existence. As Vikram pointed out, if we were bored, it wouldn't be heaven.

 

[gjones2]

The drive to survive -- continue living -- is fundamental not only to human beings but to nearly all conscious creatures. This is not surprising because it has been ingrained into us by millions of years of natural selection. We're selected to try to survive and to succeed well enough to reproduce and help insure the survival of our offspring. Alas, we're not selected for long-term happiness, though. Our lives end in death, and thus the drive to continue living always ends in failure.

I've read many things by "cheerful" atheists such as Ingersoll, but I don't find the prospect of a godless and transient life to be cheering. It's better than having an evil God, yes, but not better than having a good God. I'm not a great fan of Sartre, but much of what he says about atheism makes sense to me. "When we speak of 'abandonment'...we only mean that God does not exist, and that it is necessary to draw the consequences of his absence right to the end...The existentialist finds it extremely embarrassing that God does not exist, for there disappears with Him all possibility of finding values in an intelligible heaven. There can no longer be any good a priori..."

Even Ingersoll himself wrote, "Every cradle asks us 'Whence?' and every coffin 'Whither?'" And at the burial of his brother he said, "Life is a narrow vale between the cold and barren peaks of two eternities. We strive in vain to look beyond the heights. We cry aloud, and the only answer is the echo of a wailing cry."

 

[LostAngeles]

You must be in your twenties then?

Not if there is no afterlife you won't.

...

regards,
BillyJoe

True, I'm twenty-five in a few months.

Also, true on the no afterlife bit. Ha! But then, as I've been saying, it doesn't matter because I won't be there to care that I don't know.

I really think that's getting into the "I know you know I know" bit. Won't can't don't...

 

[Polux]

I agree with gjones2. The main reason why I think that it takes guts to abandon belief, is the implication on the idea of justice. This world is cruel and unfair, and it's hard to abandon belief in ultimate divine justice. We're on our own.
Kind of sucks. But I prefer to accept that and not live in a fantasy.

 

[wildflower1]

Most of the time I've come to accept it as fact without emotion. Sometimes the realization strikes me with horror. Other times the thought creates a peculiar combination of pleasure in the moment with an irrational wistfulness for experiences that will never be.

 

[BillyJoe]

sackett,

I like your story. It's truely impossible for us to be eternally happy and still be us. The idea of waking after death to a life of eternal bliss is just ridiculous. God would have to change what we basically are.

BillyJoe