Great, no "Afterlife"?

[Luceiia]

Do you find the idea of there being no afterlife cheerful?

No, I find it neither cheerful nor uncheerful.

I similarly find the lack of JE's ability to speak to the dead neither cheerful nor uncheerful. Or the existence of Oz, or pink unicorns, or many other pretend things.

If anything, I suppose having an afterlife would eliminate the burden of knowing that anything vitally important to me had better get done by me asap or it may never get done at all, ever. No second chances, no slack. When we're done, we are done. So, at times (depending on my mood), the lack of an afterlife moves closer to uncheerful from the usual neutral.


Luceiia

 

[7th sextile]

(...uh,Luceiia-BillyJoe lives in Oz...)

I would say lack of belief in an afterlife doesn't make me
cheerful except in an indirect way-to paraphrase Ingersoll:
The time to be happy is now,the place to be happy is here.
Or that other great philosopher (U.S. Country Singer/song-
writer) Alan Jackson:might as well share/might as well smile/
life goes on for a little bitty while...

 

[Anders W. Bonde]

Billy Joe,

I'm just curious as to why the question was asked in the first place - and the way it was phrased. To me it looks a bit like a false dilemma along the lines of:

"Cheered by the thought of an afterlife = Sucker, you're so naïve that you really think there is an afterlife?" versus "Not cheered by the thought of an afterlife = Sucker, why torture yourself with not believing in an afterlife?"

So - I'll answer, but not vote, anyway - thus:

I don't personally care whether there is an afterlife or not. If there is, I'll deal with it then, if there isn't, then never mind. However, from what we presently know and don't know, there is absolutely no proof of an afterlife and an owerwhelming body of evidence against it - making the question rather moot.

 

[steenkh]

I do not think it was meant as a trick question. The original commentary text said:

I fear he'll fall back into faith someday, given how sad he seems to find the idea of no afterlife. Me, I find the concept immensely cheering.

I think BillyJoe simply wanted to explore our reactions to this statement. Believers often talk about being comforted by the thought of the afterlife, so can we reverse that and assume that non-believers are saddened by the apparent lack of an afterlife?

What do we say to persons who want to convert us by offering the comfort of a life after death? Do we take the aggressive stance and say "How strange that you are comforted by the thought of an eternity in heaven, My knowledge that there is no afterlife cheers me up because I am bored by the sound of harps!".

I am fascinated with the very typical statement in the quote where a guy thinks he might start believing again because he thinks it is sad that there is no afterlife. Does he really mean believe? How can people shop around and pick a belief simply because it does not make them sad? As I said before, no matter how sad I am that Santa Claus does not exist, it is impossible for me to start believing in him! But apparently, many people can do just that.

 

[Anders W. Bonde]

Hi Steen,

I agree that BJ's question was most likely not intended to be a trick question - but I still considere it to something along the lines of a false dilemma, simply because of the lack of evidence for an afterlife and the owerwhelming body of evidence against it. Thus "the idea of there being no afterlife" is for me not an idea, but a fact, whereas the "concept of an afterlife" is mererely an idea based on wishful thinking. So I can't really say I am cheered or otherwise by a fact versus an idea.

 

[steenkh]

Hi Anders!

I see what you mean, but I think the logic false. It is usual to be cheered up when some future prospect is better than your current situation. The fact that there is no afterlife could be imagined to be a better prospect than one's current life if, for instance, one has an incurable disease, or is struck by grief. So you do not have to compare an idea to a fact when stating if you are cheerful or not.

And even if you do compare the idea and the fact, you can still find it fortunate that the idea is just an idea. The mind can easily make such comparisons, even though they are meaningless in the strict sense.

As I have said before, I am sad at the thought of death, simply because my mind cannot imagine what it is like to not exist, and instinctively I think it is better to exist than not to exist. Of course, once I do not exist, then I also do not prefer one state to the other, but for the moment I exist, and I definitely prefer it to stay that way.

This is something that each of us has to face, and we do it individually. Some are sad, some are cheerful, and then some look at it in a logical fashion and avoids false dilemmas.

If we go back to the "cheerfulness"-question, those who feel cheerful at the thought of death, do they also extend this cheerfulness to the death of other people, say the ones they love?

 

[Anders W. Bonde]

Hi Steen!

I agree that we can be cheered by thougts that are not based on fact, and that comparisons between facts and thoughts therefore may be irrelevant. I suppose I was just being a bit pendantic - my prejudice simply forced me to assume that the original post was based on the assumption that the disbelief in an afterlife must necessarily cause sadness. If that was not the intention, then I apologize - and I'll leave it at that.

Personally, I am not saddened by the thought of death - but I do find the thought of not living sad; all the things we'll no longer be able to experience because we run out of time. I do not fear death itself, I believe it is painless because it is "everything-less", but I do fear the prospect of a painful or a long, slow demise prior to death. I don't find the thought of an afterlife comforting simply because I find the idea of an afterlife absurd.

I don't really think anyone is cheered by the thought of thier own, or someone else's death, unless when the dying is suffering a long, painful demise (or suffer from abject depression). When my Mother died after a long illness I felt a sense of relief - not one of cheerfulness; I find that the word "relief" better describes the feeling than the word "cheerfulness". However, I also suppose that some people may actually feel cheerful about the demise of their enemies (percieved or real) - I distinctly remember the TV footage of of chanting and cheering religious zealots following the 9/11 massacre. Sickenening what a religious upbringing can do to people, sickening that parents and teachers teach thier children to hate others. Sorry, I may have wondered a bit off topic!

 

[BillyJoe]

Vikram,

Thanks for your reply and I'm honoured that your have chosen to make your first post here. Have you been lurking for a while?

I wasn't really interested in the evidence or not for an afterlife. I was merely posing a question to those who have come to the realization that there is no afterlife. And my question was "Did the realization that there is no afterlife make you feel cheerful".

You say you did NOT feel cheerful but accept it as a matter of fact.
I wonder how the idea of eternity implied by most versions of and afterlife affects you.

BillyJoe

 

[BillyJoe]

dann,

Originally posted by dann
And BillyJoe: You should never make an estimate of ideas based upon whether they make you cheerful or not. Why not consider whether they are true or false? The ability to do so makes me cheerful!

I am interested in whether the idea of an afterlife is true or false but this is not the topic of this thread. Also, I am not making an estimate of ideas based upon whether they make me cheerful or not. I am simply asking my fellow posters whether their realization that there is no afterlife made them feel cheerful and, if so, why.

BJ

 

[BillyJoe]

Pixel,

I am extremely offended by this. I never lie, and I assure you I have really thought about my beliefs. I have been an atheist since I was twelve, 38 years now, and "came to terms" with the consequences of my beliefs (or lack of them) a long time ago.

Sorry, I did not mean to offend.
I didn't actually mean that I thought you were lying, merely that I felt you were using theoretical physics to avoid facing up to the potentially devastating consequences of the realization that there is no afterlife. I anm looking for your emotional reaction, not your rationalizations. And again I'm not meaning to offend.

.Just because you find the idea of there being no afterlife "devastating" doesn't mean other people do.

Actually, I haven't stated how this idea affected me.

BillyJoe

 

[BillyJoe]

Luceiia,

Thanks for your response.
But, oh yeah, Oz does exist, I assure you. In one of the southernmost States, there is a little township on the city outskirts, called Mooroolbark. That's where I live.

BillyJoe.

 

[BillyJoe]

Anders,

I don't personally care whether there is an afterlife or not.

Can you explain why it doesn't affect you either way. It doesn't sound like an emotionally neutral question to me.

However, from what we presently know and don't know, there is absolutely no proof of an afterlife and an owerwhelming body of evidence against it - making the question rather moot.

I am simply asking whether this realization that there is no afterlife made you feel cheerful.

BillyJoe

 

[BillyJoe]

I think BillyJoe simply wanted to explore our reactions to this statement. Believers often talk about being comforted by the thought of the afterlife, so can we reverse that and assume that non-believers are saddened by the apparent lack of an afterlife?

Nearly. I am interested in what percentage of posters who felt cheerful and, more importantly, why they felt cheerful when they realized that there is no afterlife.

 

[BillyJoe]

Anders,

.... "the idea of there being no afterlife" is for me not an idea, but a fact, whereas the "concept of an afterlife" is mererely an idea based on wishful thinking. So I can't really say I am cheered or otherwise by a fact versus an idea.

This only makes sense to me if you have never ever believed in an afterlife. Is that the case. If not, if you had to come to that realization at some point in your life, surely this must have had an emotional impact of some sort.

BillyJoe

 

[BillyJoe]

If we go back to the "cheerfulness"-question, those who feel cheerful at the thought of death, do they also extend this cheerfulness to the death of other people, say the ones they love?

No. The question is not "Do you feel cheerful at the thought of death?" but "Did you feel cheerful when you realized that there is no afterlife?" Quite a different question I think.

 

[steenkh]

No. The question is not "Do you feel cheerful at the thought of death?" but "Did you feel cheerful when you realized that there is no afterlife?" Quite a different question I think.

I agree that it is a different question, but it is only now that I see that the question was exclusively for people who have believed in the afterlife at some point.

In which case I am not sure if I qualify, because as a small child I was a firm believer in God, but for reasons I cannot explain I never took the afterlife serious. Perhaps the vision of harp-playing angels in heaven was too improbable for me even at that early state. I accepted the teachings, but I did not truly believe. As I grew, I just grew out of my religion, and I did not really notice. There was no cheerfulness or sadness because there was no heaven (nobody really believe they will go to hell, despite the bible clearly stating that only a tiny fraction of us will go to heaven). The thought that there would be nothing after death just came naturally to me, and I did not feel any emotions at all.

Steen

 

[sackett]

Ladewig's observation is intriguing

I voted yes because I cannot find a believable description of the afterlife that includes naps. I really enjoy an afternoon siesta and I would hate to give up that pleasure along with deep restful sleep. I like waking up refreshed. Being awake for eternity sounds so mentally fatiguing.

Fact is, we have no descriptions of the afterlife at all. We have people's imaginings, and that's it.

But I think your remark touches on something important, even essential: we need our sleep, both literally and metaphorically. Humans aren't made for eternal things; we aren't cut out for infinity.

Let me do a little imagining: Maybe you can take a nap in the next world, who knows? But when you've had your nap you'll wake up, and face the endlessness of eternity again. Awakening to that would become hell for most of us -- no, I'm going to say for all of us.

Well, all right, maybe we can escape from the next world, who can say? That would be death, I think, and eventually we would all choose it. Yes indeedy, every sainted one of us. We need our sleep.

I don't feel quite cheerful at the thought of there being no afterlife, but I'm comforted.

 

[Anders W. Bonde]

Hi there, BillyJoe!

Your observation that I've NEVER believed in an afterlife is correct, and it's likely that this is the reason that I've never really attached any emotion to its existence or non-existence.

I do, however, for other reasons, tend to get emotianal with apolpgetic peddlers of the the concepts of reincarnation and karma, but that's something for another thread, I guess!

Anyway, thanks for your interest.

 

[LostAngeles]

I don't know about that Pixel.

In 1953, you were NOT unconcerned by your non-existence because you did not exist. Equally, in 2050, you WON'T be unconcerned about your non-existence because you won't exist.

I wonder if we could concentrate on the living present and future. Does the fact that there is no "Afterlife", affect you in any way positively or negatively at present. Do you expect it to affect you at any time in the future? For example, if and when you develop an incurable illness? Or on your death-bed?

BillyJoe

Half of his chromosones existed in the form of an unmatured egg in his mother's ovaries. So blah blah pre-conciousness woo blah blah Water of Life blah Adbomination blah. END WISE@$$.

An afterlife would be nice. I'd like to be reincarnated as a male or a cat or a tse tse fly or a Paris Hilton, but only if I could keep my memories as to the general experiences before hand. I'm curious as to what it's like being other things.

Of course, there could be nothing afterwards. Which is fine too, because I'll be dead and nothing and won't be able to care about the lack of an afterlife.

As I'm not dead yet, I can't really be concerned with the afterlife.

Although if there is a God and he does send people who do good but aren't Christians to Hell, then I'll be very, very happy to be tormented for all eternity. Because &(%$ that.

 

[Vikram]

Vikram,

Thanks for your reply and I'm honoured that your have chosen to make your first post here. Have you been lurking for a while?

I wasn't really interested in the evidence or not for an afterlife. I was merely posing a question to those who have come to the realization that there is no afterlife. And my question was "Did the realization that there is no afterlife make you feel cheerful".

You say you did NOT feel cheerful but accept it as a matter of fact.
I wonder how the idea of eternity implied by most versions of and afterlife affects you.

BillyJoe

Hi BillyJoe,

Yes, I have been lurking around for some time.

If we assume for the sake of argument that there exists a heaven, and also assume as true the standard religious doctrine about it being a place where one is privy to every happiness imaginable, I must admit that it's a concept that I find immensely cheering. I quite agree that a lot of people here might have opinions diametrically opposite to mine, but all I can say is - if after death, one were to be presented with the choice between completely ceasing to exist and going to a place where one could continue to exist in infinite happiness, how many would really choose the former? I, sure as hell, would choose the latter.

Another popular conception of the afterlife is that of rebirth. I personally love life, and if I had the chance to be reborn and live another lifetime on earth, I would certainly jump at it. Also, since I intend to live a good and honest life, I suppose I would be reborn as a human and not a cockroach.