Pixel42
Schrödinger's cat
I've never understood why most people are more bothered by the fact that they will not exist after their deaths than they are by the fact that they didn't exist before they were born.
I was born in 1953. I was completely unconcerned by my non-existence in 1950, and I confidently expect to be equally unconcerned by it in 2050.
I was born in 1953. I was completely unconcerned by my non-existence in 1950, and I confidently expect to be equally unconcerned by it in 2050.
I don't know about that Pixel.Pixel42 said:
In 1953, you were NOT unconcerned by your non-existence because you did not exist. Equally, in 2050, you WON'T be unconcerned about your non-existence because you won't exist.
I wonder if we could concentrate on the living present and future. Does the fact that there is no "Afterlife", affect you in any way positively or negatively at present. Do you expect it to affect you at any time in the future? For example, if and when you develop an incurable illness? Or on your death-bed?
BillyJoe
Pixel42
Schrödinger's cat
BillyJoe said:
No.
'Past' 'present' and 'future' are illusions caused by the fact that we perceive time differently to the other three dimensions of our four-dimensional universe - our consciousness moves along it in one direction, so we don't experience it in total the way we experience the three spacial directions. Any physicist will tell you, however, that time is not really different to the other three dimensions. Saying "Tom lives in 1900, Dick in 2000 and Harry in 2100" is no different to saying "Tom lives in the US, Dick in England and Harry in Australia".
My existence is finite in space and time, but the fact that I exist at all means that my existence is an indelible part of the Universe. That's why I say that I am as unconcerned about my non-existence in 2050 as I am about my non-existence in 1950.
At this moment in 2004 there are millions of people who don't exist because they haven't been born yet who, in 100 years time, won't exist because they have lived and died. These people will, in 2054, find the prospect of their non-existence in 2104 more difficult to accept than the fact of their non-existence in 2004. But that's only because of their limited perception of time, compared to the other three dimensions.
Pixel,
It's a big call, but I have to say that I don't believe you.
I am almost certain that you are avoiding the issue. Quoting theoretical physics is not a way to answer a question such as this but merely a way of avoiding answering it or, more pointedly, a way of avoiding really thinking about it.
I feel you may have a real problem coming to terms with your discovery that there is no afterlife. Of course, it's only a feeling and perhaps you can show me I am wrong.
BJ
It's a big call, but I have to say that I don't believe you.
I am almost certain that you are avoiding the issue. Quoting theoretical physics is not a way to answer a question such as this but merely a way of avoiding answering it or, more pointedly, a way of avoiding really thinking about it.
I feel you may have a real problem coming to terms with your discovery that there is no afterlife. Of course, it's only a feeling and perhaps you can show me I am wrong.
BJ
The question of whether to be happy that there is no afterlife is really dependent on what kind of afterlife.
The Bible's idea of an afterlife being singing the praise of God for all eternity, sounds so dull that I can be happy that there is no afterlife. The thought of rebirth gives me creeps because then I would have to go through a life all over again, and I might turn up to be an afterlife-believing idiot! And so on.
But I am definitely not happy that there is no afterlife. My brain has never experienced not to exist, and it is almost impossible to accept that some day I will not be around anymore. I agree that having no afterlife should not be worse than having no beforelife, but it feels different. Mostly because the beforelife is over and done with, but the afterlife is still waiting not to exist.
But I can not just say "Hey, I would be comforted by an afterlife" and then join a religion, because I still have my reasoning powers that tell me that afterlife and Santa Claus do no just exist because I would like them to.
Steen
The Bible's idea of an afterlife being singing the praise of God for all eternity, sounds so dull that I can be happy that there is no afterlife. The thought of rebirth gives me creeps because then I would have to go through a life all over again, and I might turn up to be an afterlife-believing idiot! And so on.
But I am definitely not happy that there is no afterlife. My brain has never experienced not to exist, and it is almost impossible to accept that some day I will not be around anymore. I agree that having no afterlife should not be worse than having no beforelife, but it feels different. Mostly because the beforelife is over and done with, but the afterlife is still waiting not to exist.
But I can not just say "Hey, I would be comforted by an afterlife" and then join a religion, because I still have my reasoning powers that tell me that afterlife and Santa Claus do no just exist because I would like them to.
Steen
.....Steen,
Thanks for your reply.
You have obviously thought this through both intellectually and emotionally. In particular, you have not avoided thinking about the potentially devastating impact of the realization that there is no afterlife.
Thanks again.
BJ
Thanks for your reply.
You have obviously thought this through both intellectually and emotionally. In particular, you have not avoided thinking about the potentially devastating impact of the realization that there is no afterlife.
Thanks again.
BJ
thaiboxerken
Penultimate Amazing
- Joined
- Sep 17, 2001
- Messages
- 34,530
Yep, cuz I'd hate to be in heaven around all the christians, or in hell around the wiccans.
I'm a new member here and this is my first post. This topic really caught my eye because I’d had a similar discussion a while ago with a fellow skeptic friend of mine.
I would personally be delighted if there were to be an afterlife, in much the same way that I would be delighted if I weren't a Muggle and could actually raise my wand and utter, "Expeliarmus" and have the person before me take a back flip and fall flat on the ground.
That said, I will most certainly not sacrifice any of my rational thinking at the altar of this belief. The fact remains - there is no evidence whatsoever of the existence of the afterlife, and thus, any longing that I might have for the possibility of existing beyond the grave or pyre remains just that... a longing.
However, the absence of an afterlife doesn’t really devastate me to any degree (though during contemplative moments, I, at the ripe old age of 23, find myself overwhelmed by the supreme tragedy of the fact that I won’t be around to find out whether Microsoft or Apple have the upper hand in 2100) and it doesn’t hamper my ability to live my life to the hilt.
My answer to the poll is thus ‘No’. The absence of an afterlife is a concept that I accept with a neutral sense of factuality. Apples falling to the ground do not cheer me (unless I have an irresistible craving for cider) and similarly, the complete termination of my existence when my mortal body ceases to function doesn’t cheer me either (in fact, I have the strongest hunch that just before I die, I will remember something that I wanted to do before I died and didn't.) The presence of an afterlife, on the other hand, is something that I would find cheerful, with the slight assumption of course that this afterlife were to be enjoyable and not fraught with the iniquity of roasting on a open flame.
I would personally be delighted if there were to be an afterlife, in much the same way that I would be delighted if I weren't a Muggle and could actually raise my wand and utter, "Expeliarmus" and have the person before me take a back flip and fall flat on the ground.
That said, I will most certainly not sacrifice any of my rational thinking at the altar of this belief. The fact remains - there is no evidence whatsoever of the existence of the afterlife, and thus, any longing that I might have for the possibility of existing beyond the grave or pyre remains just that... a longing.
However, the absence of an afterlife doesn’t really devastate me to any degree (though during contemplative moments, I, at the ripe old age of 23, find myself overwhelmed by the supreme tragedy of the fact that I won’t be around to find out whether Microsoft or Apple have the upper hand in 2100) and it doesn’t hamper my ability to live my life to the hilt.
My answer to the poll is thus ‘No’. The absence of an afterlife is a concept that I accept with a neutral sense of factuality. Apples falling to the ground do not cheer me (unless I have an irresistible craving for cider) and similarly, the complete termination of my existence when my mortal body ceases to function doesn’t cheer me either (in fact, I have the strongest hunch that just before I die, I will remember something that I wanted to do before I died and didn't.) The presence of an afterlife, on the other hand, is something that I would find cheerful, with the slight assumption of course that this afterlife were to be enjoyable and not fraught with the iniquity of roasting on a open flame.
Ladewig
I lost an avatar bet.
- Joined
- Dec 4, 2001
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- 28,828
I voted yes because I cannot find a believable description of the afterlife that includes naps. I really enjoy an afternoon siesta and I would hate to give up that pleasure along with deep restful sleep. I like waking up refreshed. Being awake for eternity sounds so mentally fatiguing.
steenkh said:
OK, Steen. Let's rephrase the question: Do you find it cheerful that you cannot be blackmailed by the Christians and their psychopathic God (as described in the Old Testament) since you don't believe in their idea of an afterlife?
I think a lot of us do ...
And BillyJoe: You should never make an estimate of ideas based upon whether they make you cheerful or not. Why not consider whether they are true or false? The ability to do so makes me cheerful!
It certainly cheers me up, but not so much that I would actually go to my death in a cheerful mood! If I am able to think, one of my last thoughts can very possibly be "Enjoy, you are going to have a once-in-a-lifetime experience!", but more probably I will be thinking "Dang, now I will never know the ending of that book I was reading".dann said:
Whether we are cheerful or not will depend more on what type of person we are than what we expect of the afterlife.
But just at the moment of death it might make one more cheerful if one has a strong faith in heaven or suchlike. The hallucinations that the brain produces when dying will probably be colored by the same factors that govern the hallucinations that we get when experiencing sleep paralysis. Believers see devils or become one with the universe, but my experiences with sleep paralysis has produced nothing of the sort. After the first surprise at what was happening, even though I was a child at the time, I decided it was not dangerous, and when it happened regularly, I learned to simply sleep it out instead of fighting it. This is indicative to me that when I die sometime I will probably die in my sleep rather than have an out-of-this-world experience - unless I am too excited to sleep! But my skeptical mind will in any case take the experience down to a more earthly level, and I might get disappointed that this is all I get!
To stay on subject, I might feel a certain glee that everybody will actually have much the same experience, although each person will interpret it in his own way. Pity we cannot come back and lie about how great it was!
Steen
Pixel42
Schrödinger's cat
BJ,BillyJoe said:
I am extremely offended by this. I never lie, and I assure you I have really thought about my beliefs. I have been an atheist since I was twelve, 38 years now, and "came to terms" with the consequences of my beliefs (or lack of them) a long time ago.
Just because you find the idea of there being no afterlife "devastating" doesn't mean other people do.