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Gov. Jindal's response to Obama - FAIL

The savages are those who fail to realize that there is a more rational way to assess the risk of natural disaster, as an insurance company would, and raise the funds for reasonable, cost-effective safety measures from the property owners who would be affected.

The savages are the ones who do not realize that, as regards natural disasters of the magnitude of a Mt. St. Helens, or the Yellowstone Caldera possibly going "bloop!" the property owners effected are the whole bloody lot of us. Do think these things out all the way before you post your Libertarian blandishments in the middle of a discussion of Republican foibles.

Ron Paul? The best they had? How do you call the laughing dog gif?
 
I'm not sure what you mean by teaching evolution badly. I thought evolution was self-evident.

Perhaps not to the 12 year-old being taught in science class that magic might have played a role in his species' development.
 
IBTW there are many examples of University Profs questioning the "official 911 report". There are also several "Holocaust questioners" if not full blown denialists on University faculties so I don't see how that relates to this issue.
There are also biology professors who support intelligent design. (At least one I can think of). That's the strength and weakness of the university system. Professors are expected to contribute to the field of study that they teach. This means they typically must present new and potentially conflicting ideas. Sometimes these ideas are radical and controversial and we have the tenure system to protect professors from being subject to popular whims, which may silence thier views(not on grounds of merit but on grounds of popularity). This allows them to fully explore these ideas and debate them at a world academic level. A new area or concept often results in a deluge of completing ideas, with the best typically surviving after the initial debate flood. However, you will still end up with tidepools of stupidity that's hard to eliminate. These professors' pet ideas are clearly without merit and the academic community will normally treat them as such. It may give the appearance to the general public that these professors are reputable, but that's simply not the case. Good or bad, this is the system that allows new ideas to be tested.


Now, you compared this university setting to highschool teachers, and it's a completely different thing. Highschool/gradeschool teachers aren't charged with the responsibility to contribute to the understanding and discovery of the field. Rather, they are charged with teaching the current/best understood state of the field. This is a completely different goal and one that needs to be protected. it's not that children are unable to handle controversy. In fact, I hope children are presented with areas of true debate (e.g., regulation vs. deregulation), but evolution/creationism isn't one of them.

In science, the facts are the facts. Observations are observations. testable is testable. There are no facts, observations or experiments that refute evolution. To present information that supposedly does, is to present fiction. This is in direct conflict with the entire job of a highschool teacher adn represents a very dangerous change in the goal of public education. What if we had a scientologist teaching a psychology class? What if we had a PETA advocate teaching medical technology? What if we had a newager teaching physics?

It's not a small issue. The proper education of our children is our hope for our country's future. If we allowed non-science taught in science class, all we would be doing is weakening the student's chance to compete at a world stage.
 
I'm not sure what you mean by teaching evolution badly. I thought evolution was self-evident.

If evolution is "self-evident", then why do we have to teach about it? :rolleyes:

Is there something in the creationist book that would tend to put evolution into doubt?

Yes - the lies that creationists make up about evolution. If these lies are what the kids in science class are exposed to, and there really isn't any accurate representation of evolution presented to them, then it would be no wonder that they come away thinking, erroneously, that evolution is wrong.

It's called brainwashing.

I would think given the strength of Evolution science that no alternative view would even be considered when presented.

You would be wrong about that. Not about the strength of evolution - in the scientific community evolution is one of the most respected theories in the history of science. Rather, you are wrong about no alternate views being presented, at least in Louisiana.

I just can't wait until math classes in Louisiana start teaching 2+2=5 under their new "academic freedom" law.

BTW I read the text of the act as signed and you will be relieved to know that "climate change" is not mentioned. It only mentions the, no loner operative, term of "Global warming" and Stem Cell research was completely missing.

Thanks for the catch on stem cell research. I hadn't noticed that.
 
Update on the Truthiness of Jindal's Speech

Oops, it looks as if Gov. Jindal may have made up one of the central parts of his speech...

Jindal's Katrina Story: A Tall Tale?
The evidence continues to grow that the story Bobby Jindal told Tuesday night -- about how he backed a tough-talking sheriff's efforts to rescue Katrina victims, government red-tape be damed -- was, how to put it ... made up. ...

Now I'm not sure about the "made up" claim, but the fact is that Jindal put a spin on this story Tuesday night which, at the very least, took substantial liberties with the facts of the situation. And it never really looks good to get called out on something like that during your coming-out event on the national stage.

Yup, he's the next "GOP superstar" :rolleyes:
 
Of course you see that, because you are completely, totally, and utterly wrong. About pretty much everything.

Wow... This is the most fact-filled and substantive rebuttal I ever received on this forum. Thank you for pointing out the specific flaws in my reasoning. Hallelujah! I have seen the light! I shall worship the government from this time forth and sin no more! :rolleyes:


The savages are the ones who do not realize that, as regards natural disasters of the magnitude of a Mt. St. Helens, or the Yellowstone Caldera possibly going "bloop!" the property owners effected are the whole bloody lot of us.

And the fundamental laws of economics just don't scale to millions of people because... :confused:


So what office do you currently hold?

I like to call myself the "Chief Software Architect". It looks impressive on a business card. Of course I'm not really a chief, unless you count the few Indians who work for me... from India... I tend to think of them as partners though.


And another deluded right-wing anarchist has no ideal what civilization is.

My view of civilization: intellectual, cultural, and material development that comes about as the result of individuals' capacity for rational thought, self-interest, and voluntary cooperation for mutual beneficial (aka capitalism).

Your view of civilization: submission to Allah, err, I mean government.
 
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Forgive this poor old redneck. I am just puzzled about the concern that evolution, which has been so completely validated, could be threatened by an obviously ridiculous notion that, almost 100% of religions espouse in one form or another could not be overcome with a convincing rebuttal or just simple ridicule of the ignorant kid that asks the question.

Your buddy in the White House for the last 8 years, and the people that supported him, are the cause of the concern. They buy into obviously ridiculous notions and they vote.
 
And the fundamental laws of economics just don't scale to millions of people because... :confused:

This is why I consider conservatism a mental short coming. I keep hearing people like Jindal and the Rushblob shrieking that the free market will do everything that needs to be done, but where is the rush of private capital to do something som important to our survival as volcano monitoiring?

.........Crickets........

There is no real money in that sort of thing, is there? The reliance on the free market to do what is needed is delusional and intellectually lazy.

My view of civilization: intellectual, cultural, and material development that comes about as the result of individuals' capacity for rational thought, self-interest, and voluntary cooperation for mutual beneficial (aka capitalism).

You think with the wrong portion of your brain. Civilization comes about as a result of collective efforts to impliment the good ideas that individuals come up with for the common good. Capital is not a uniformly good influence on civilization. It can, in fact, be a destructive force. Imperialism is a natural extension of capitalism.

Your view of civilization: submission to Allah, err, I mean government.

Where do you get that?
 
My view of civilization: intellectual, cultural, and material development that comes about as the result of individuals' capacity for rational thought, self-interest, and voluntary cooperation for mutual beneficial (aka capitalism).


It's never happened before in the entirety of human history, but you can dream. Enforcement of rules is downright necessary to achieve mutual benefit.

Your view of civilization: submission to Allah, err, I mean government.


I see no reason to conflate government with imaginary deities, a priori. But it has happened a lot in history, and it's a good thing to guard against.

Capitalism as an economic system has nothing to do with your notions of voluntary cooperation for mutual benefit. Your idea of "capitalism" smells like another imaginary deity.
 
...the tens of thousands of dollars the Federal government steals from each of us every year. The savages are those who fail to realize that there is a more rational way to assess the risk of natural disaster, as an insurance company would, and raise the funds for reasonable, cost-effective safety measures from the property owners who would be affected.

I don't understand your analogy. Are you saying that the federal or state government should act as an insurance company would or that insurance companies should offer volcano insurance to people living near volcanos? Does your analogy cover both the monitoring of the volcano and payments for life or property destroyed by the volcano?
 
Here's another point about Jindal's volcano monitoring. He actually said, "something called volcano monitoring."

WTF? What in the 2 words "volcano monitoring" would lead someone to add "something like?" The meaning is of "volcano monitoring" is completely straightforward, and if it wasn't for Gov Jindal, he could have googled it up in about 2 seconds.

What it sounds like to me is more of the edification of proud, stubbon ignorance that permeates certain political movements (know-nothingism). He wanted to make volcano monitoring sound like something exotic and unnecessary, so he pretended like its function is unfathomable.

GOP opposition to Obama budgeting plans: Find things that sounds funny, and make fun of them. Is that a winning formula?
 
Here's another point about Jindal's volcano monitoring. He actually said, "something called volcano monitoring."

WTF? What in the 2 words "volcano monitoring" would lead someone to add "something like?" The meaning is of "volcano monitoring" is completely straightforward, and if it wasn't for Gov Jindal, he could have googled it up in about 2 seconds.

What it sounds like to me is more of the edification of proud, stubbon ignorance that permeates certain political movements. He wanted to make volcano monitoring sound like something exotic and unnecessary, so he pretended like its function is unfathomable. It was in this context that Sarah Palin became an instant superstar.

GOP opposition to Obama budgeting plans: Find things that sounds funny, and make fun of them. Is that a winning formula?
 
This is why I consider conservatism a mental short coming.

Me too. But what you're criticizing here is called classical liberalism.


I keep hearing people like Jindal and the Rushblob shrieking that the free market will do everything that needs to be done, but where is the rush of private capital to do something som important to our survival as volcano monitoiring?

The government gets there first, because it can acquire funds through means that are detached from economic reality, and pretty soon the "natural monopoly" myth becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy: why invest in something when the government might run you out of business when it catches on, as it did with everything from mail delivery to roads to WiFi Internet? In absence of government the free market could do it all, from the Erie Canal to the Dyson Sphere and beyond!


There is no real money in that sort of thing, is there? The reliance on the free market to do what is needed is delusional and intellectually lazy.

There's no money in knowing the odds of your home being destroyed by a volcano next year, and getting an early heads up? No one would choose to pay for something like that? Seriously? :boggled:


You think with the wrong portion of your brain. Civilization comes about as a result of collective efforts to impliment the good ideas that individuals come up with for the common good.

Collective - how? By free will or by force? That is the difference between our two philosophies.


Capital is not a uniformly good influence on civilization. It can, in fact, be a destructive force. Imperialism is a natural extension of capitalism.

So you've read Marx and Lenin and their intellectually dishonest straw-man arguments, as I was forced to in 4th grade. In reality, however, imperialism is the precise opposite of the free-market capitalist philosophy, which is built upon the concept of self-ownership and, by extension, the non-aggression principle and absolute property rights.

Imperialism was carried out by all-powerful centralized national governments, exactly what you're fighting for and I'm fighting against!
 
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It's never happened before in the entirety of human history, but you can dream.

Anarchistic communities have existed in the past, but non-violent cooperation is an advanced accomplishment for a society. Even the best of those societies were conquered from outside by a more centralized force, but that doesn't make them a failure. The information revolution and higher education levels make outright violence ever more difficult for governments to justify. Not only can I dream, but I can put my money where my mouth is!


Enforcement of rules is downright necessary to achieve mutual benefit.

What is necessary is capacity for self-defense, not centralization.


I see no reason to conflate government with imaginary deities, a priori.

And yet you assign supernatural rights to it. If I and a bunch of my friends take money from you by force - that's called stealing. But if we "vote" to take money from you by force - that's called taxes. Why is the latter justified when former isn't? It's just a quasi-religious ritual, nothing more, nothing less.


Capitalism as an economic system has nothing to do with your notions of voluntary cooperation for mutual benefit.

The term I use is anarcho-capitalism, because just by itself the term "capitalism" has come to mean "crony capitalism", where it is corrupted by government, which I most certainly am against.


Your idea of "capitalism" smells like another imaginary deity.

It is a social and economic theory that makes rational sense to me, while other theories do not. I find AnCap to be moral, non-contradictory, and compatible with my perception of reality through all available means. If I'll ever come across a better theory, I most certainly will "convert", but so far I haven't.


Are you saying that the federal or state government should act as an insurance company would or that insurance companies should offer volcano insurance to people living near volcanos?

The latter. In a free society governments would be like churches, optional clubs catering to the faithful, with no far-reaching powers to impose their will on others. The free market, on the other hand, contains multitudes of people looking to make a buck, and the only way you can do that in a free society is by offering something valuable to someone else in exchange.

When buying a house, it is in your rational self-interest to know what potential threats to your property exist. Various competing property appraisal and quality assurance agencies would exist, as well as non-profit institutions, publications, private research universities, and so on. It would be in their interest to study and monitor the nearby volcanoes, and this information would be included in the appraisal service you may order (or the seller might have one ahead of time, which you can choose to accept or challenge based on the agency's reputation).

If you choose to live in an area that is likely to be affected by a volcano, that is your decision, and you should carry any added costs that come from this decision. There might be benefits as well: like lower housing prices due to less demand for people to move into the area, etc. When the when the top does blow, you are responsible for your own safety and your property. Most people will choose to plan ahead, spread out the costs, and get another self-interested party to share your risks - that's where insurance would come in. It is in the insurance company's own interest to reduce the damage done to their clients, including making sure they have ample warning, making sure evacuation services are available, researching safety equipment, and so on.

Anything the government can do, the free market can do better. If Katrina is any indication, the government would be more interested in confiscating guns and instituting martial law than actual concern for people's safety. Government bureaucrats have no vested interest in helping you, only in retaining and expanding their power, which they can do without your consent. Governments have killed hundreds of millions in the 20th century alone! They simply cannot be trusted!
 
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Anarchistic communities have existed in the past, but non-violent cooperation is an advanced accomplishment for a society. Even the best of those societies were conquered from outside by a more centralized force, but that doesn't make them a failure.

Wrong. Anarchist societies are incapable of surviving in the presence of more centralized societies. More centralized societies are very capable of surviving in the presence of anarchist societies. This means anarchist societies are less capable than more centralized societies.

Governments have killed hundreds of millions in the 20th century alone! They simply cannot be trusted!

Wrong. Humans have killed hundreds of millions in the 20th century alone. They cannot be trusted. Specifically, we cannot trust anyone who proposed that we do away with institutions that are proven effective at restraining his actions.

The only thing that has has any success in reducing that tendency - of people killing other people - is the rule of law, enforced by a representative government, the very thing you are proposing to destroy.
 
Anarchistic communities have existed in the past, but non-violent cooperation is an advanced accomplishment for a society. Even the best of those societies were conquered from outside by a more centralized force, but that doesn't make them a failure.
...


It seems that you put the exclamation on Chaos' point before he even posted it. Being conquered is most definitely failure, in my book.
 

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