God's purpose

[ynot]

Theoretical scenario . . .
A woman has caused the deaths of some people and is about to cause the deaths of more. You have the ability to cause the death of the woman to prevent her from causing more deaths of these people that include children, women and members of your own family. Would causing the death of the woman be good or evil?

ETA - There is no other way to prevent the woman from causing the deaths than causing her death.

A couple of different more detailed versions of the theoretical scenario above . . .

(1) You were on a ship that sank and you and the woman are in a small lifeboat along with some babies. The lifeboat is so full that another person onboard would sink it. There are people in the water trying to get into the lifeboat. A large school of hungry sharks is killing everyone in the water in a feeding frenzy. The woman is causing those in the water to die by beating them with an oar to prevent them entering and sinking the boat. Even though some of the people in the water are her grandparents, she beats them off also and causes them to die because she concludes the lives of the babies are more worthy of being saved. Would it be good or evil for you to cause the death of the woman by pushing her into the water to stop her causing the deaths of those in the water?

(2) Same circumstances, but this time the woman is causing people to die by throwing the babies in the water so her grandparents can enter the lifeboat. She concludes that saving family is more important than saving babies. Would it be good or evil for you to cause the death of the woman by pushing her into the water to stop her causing the deaths of the babies?

 

[ynot]

My argument is that only a good agenda will accomplish this

My counterargument is we are on the way to accomplishing "this" already with both good and evil being present. Define what a “good agenda” is.

and that sentience is good rather than evil

Sentience is the creator of the human concepts of good and evil. There's no such thing as intrinsic or natural good and evil.

and that evil - of its own nature will destroy itself eventually... either by choosing to support good or through self destruction by choosing to remain evil.

Straight out of the pages of theistic “Battle between good and evil” myths.

"It's religion Jim, and it's pretty much as we know it."

 

[abaddon]

We are the GOD Thor. WE are ornery and want to do this because we think it is possible to achieve. We trust what we are and that is why we did it.

We don't want some sky-daddy doing it for us. We are the sky-daddy doing it for himself.

But whatever! Your question implies you need a mummy so it is hardly likely you could accept such an idea as I present and that in itself doesn't matter anyway.

100 years from now, humans will be doing what they do and you and I won't be discussing it one way or t'other. There will be no 'I told you so's' - unless by some act of science - and then that;ll be me telling you "I told you so." All in good fun mind you. None of that silly 'laughing at you not with you' crap.

Wait, now you are a prophet? You know what will transpire over the next century how exactly?

Once again you resort to claiming knowledge that you cannot possibly have.

And enough with the smug triumphalism. We know you will be telling everyone that "I told you so" because you are doing it right now in the present, let alone the future.

 

[ynot]

Wait, now you are a prophet? You know what will transpire over the next century how exactly?

More than a prophet, a "GOD" no less!

We are the GOD

Once again you resort to claiming knowledge that you cannot possibly have.

To be fair, he has all but admitted he's just making it up as he goes . . .

We don't want some sky-daddy doing it for us. We are the sky-daddy doing it for himself.

 

[Thor 2]

We are the GOD Thor. WE are ornery and want to do this because we think it is possible to achieve. We trust what we are and that is why we did it.

We don't want some sky-daddy doing it for us. We are the sky-daddy doing it for himself.

But whatever! Your question implies you need a mummy so it is hardly likely you could accept such an idea as I present and that in itself doesn't matter anyway.

100 years from now, humans will be doing what they do and you and I won't be discussing it one way or t'other. There will be no 'I told you so's' - unless by some act of science - and then that;ll be me telling you "I told you so." All in good fun mind you. None of that silly 'laughing at you not with you' crap.

Gotta hand it to you Navigator, you sure can churn it out. I feel like I'm knee deep in some stinking brown stuff now.

What is this thing about my needing a mummy?

 

[ynot]

If I understand him correctly, Navigator's answer to “What is god's purpose?” is that “WE” (I guess that's all people including the evil ones) are “GOD”. As “GOD” we must abandon evil in favour of good, for only by being good can “WE” create machines which will allow better access to the galaxy in general to promote the nurturing of consciousness therein.

So he says there are two purposes and one must be achieved before the other is possible . . .

(1) Get rid of evil.
(2) promote a nurturing of consciousness to the entire galaxy.

Is that about right Navigator?

ETA - Just had the revelation that "WE" and "GOD" might be only those that have converted to the superior position of "Agnostic". This would mean there are three purposes of "GOD" . . .

(1) Convert to the superior position of "agnostic"'
(1) Get rid of evil.
(2) Promote the nurturing of consciousness to the entire galaxy.

Anyone inspired to join Navigator in his "GOD" religion/delusion?

 

[Magrat]

If I understand him correctly, Navigator's answer to “What is god's purpose?” is that “WE” (I guess that's all people including the evil ones) are “GOD”. As “GOD” we must abandon evil in favour of good, for only by being good can “WE” create machines which will allow better access to the galaxy in general to promote the nurturing of consciousness therein.

So he says there are two purposes and one must be achieved before the other is possible . . .

(1) Get rid of evil.
(2) promote a nurturing of consciousness to the entire galaxy.

Is that about right Navigator?

ETA - Just had the revelation that "WE" and "GOD" might be only those that have converted to the superior position of "Agnostic". This would mean there are three purposes of "GOD" . . .

(1) Convert to the superior position of "agnostic"'
(1) Get rid of evil.
(2) Promote the nurturing of consciousness to the entire galaxy.

Anyone inspired to join Navigator in his "GOD" religion/delusion?

I am god. I am also Spartacus.

 

[Thor 2]

If I understand him correctly, Navigator's answer to “What is god's purpose?” is that “WE” (I guess that's all people including the evil ones) are “GOD”. As “GOD” we must abandon evil in favour of good, for only by being good can “WE” create machines which will allow better access to the galaxy in general to promote the nurturing of consciousness therein.

So he says there are two purposes and one must be achieved before the other is possible . . .

(1) Get rid of evil.
(2) promote a nurturing of consciousness to the entire galaxy.

Is that about right Navigator?

ETA - Just had the revelation that "WE" and "GOD" might be only those that have converted to the superior position of "Agnostic". This would mean there are three purposes of "GOD" . . .

(1) Convert to the superior position of "agnostic"'
(1) Get rid of evil.
(2) Promote the nurturing of consciousness to the entire galaxy.

Anyone inspired to join Navigator in his "GOD" religion/delusion?

All these upstarts wanting to claim godhood is pissing us real gods off. Just has a chat to Zeus and Neptune and we may do something about it. watch out for some thunderbolts from me for a start.

 

[Magrat]

All these upstarts wanting to claim godhood is pissing us real gods off. Just has a chat to Zeus and Neptune and we may do something about it. watch out for some thunderbolts from me for a start.

Dude...iris and Osiris called dibs.

 

[acbytesla]

Dude...iris and Osiris called dibs.

Just call me Azazel.

 

[Magrat]

Just call me Azazel.

What up? Spirit of the forest here.

 

[Navigator]

We grew up in the era of flight and space exploration. My grandmother remembered the news of the Wright brothers and saw Armstrong land on the moon. We've been deluged with science fiction about exploring space.

So of course someone of our generation would say the purpose of humans is space exploration. It's the cool thing right now.

200-300 years ago it might have been about improving mankind through the ideas of the enlightenment. Before that it might have been bringing all mankind to work for the glory of god and the one true church, whether they're building cathedrals or pyramids. Before that it might have been to explore out of Africa into the unknown lands despite the cold.

Every era would have been just as sure they finally had it right.

It is about knowledge in relation to our existence and if humans are going to stay for the long haul then space is the next thing to reach for. It isn't about 'finally getting it right' in relation to purpose Pup, it is about observing the way things actually are. All those things you mentioned are part of the evolving purpose...

If human beings are here for the long haul, then space is the obvious move...and there is no denying that in relation to creating machines, we are very good at doing so and improving on...

 

[Navigator]

New religion? If humans have a destined purpose, it was provided by some deity or conceptual equivalent. If the purpose of humans is decided by humans, than there is no permanent purpose, only current goals in times and places. So, which is it, a new religion, or your personal goal preferences?

It is about knowledge in relation to our existence and if humans are going to stay for the long haul then space is the next thing to reach for. It isn't about 'finally getting it right' in relation to purpose Hlafordlaes, it is about observing the way things actually are. Humans creat purpose through the evolving knowledge of the universe and understanding the implications therein.

If human beings are here for the long haul, then space is the obvious move...and there is no denying that in relation to creating machines, we are very good at doing so and improving on...

 

[Navigator]

The purpose of humanity is to pass on our genes. Same purpose of everything else alive.

That is critical to the purpose of course, but is not in itself the main purpose. Humans are a very different animal...

 

[Hlafordlaes]

It is about knowledge in relation to our existence and if humans are going to stay for the long haul then space is the next thing to reach for. It isn't about 'finally getting it right' in relation to purpose Hlafordlaes, it is about observing the way things actually are. Humans creat purpose through the evolving knowledge of the universe and understanding the implications therein.

If human beings are here for the long haul, then space is the obvious move...and there is no denying that in relation to creating machines, we are very good at doing so and improving on...

So, personal preference. I'm all for space exploration, too. This doesn't relate to the OP, though.

 

[Rincewind]

I am god. I am also Spartacus.

I'm Brian...

 

[Pup]

That is critical to the purpose of course, but is not in itself the main purpose. Humans are a very different animal...

What makes this difference and what inserts this unique purpose?

Theists generally say it's some variation of a soul inserted by a god and the purpose is defined by that god.

RogueKitten gave the best answer one could give based on evolution through natural selection, the same purpose we share with all other living things.

I'd expect an agnostic to say we can't know whether our purpose is more than other animals' purpose, just like we can't know if there's a god.

But you say you know. You're firmly choosing sides against the evolutionist view and joining those who say humans are unique and different. When people say your views lean theist, this is an example why.

 

[Magrat]

That is critical to the purpose of course, but is not in itself the main purpose. Humans are a very different animal...

Any proof? Because i disagree. As do biologists.

 

[ynot]

I'd expect an agnostic to say we can't know whether our purpose is more than other animals' purpose, just like we can't know if there's a god.

But you say you know. You're firmly choosing sides against the evolutionist view and joining those who say humans are unique and different. When people say your views lean theist, this is an example why.

Exactly. No more a "pure agnostic" than "not a theist".

 

[ynot]

It is about knowledge in relation to our existence and if humans are going to stay for the long haul then space is the next thing to reach for. It isn't about 'finally getting it right' in relation to purpose Pup, it is about observing the way things actually are. All those things you mentioned are part of the evolving purpose...

If human beings are here for the long haul, then space is the obvious move...and there is no denying that in relation to creating machines, we are very good at doing so and improving on...

Navigator - “Space, the final frontier. This is the purpose of the human race. Its survival mission: to create machines to give better access to the galaxy in general and promote the nurturing of consciousness therein, to superiorly go where no inferior species has gone before.”

Perhaps Navigator is a closet Trekkie?