God's purpose

[Jodie]

"What is God's Purpose? " I think you need to define what you think God is exactly before you can figure out he/she/it's purpose.

 

[Thor 2]

"What is God's Purpose? " I think you need to define what you think God is exactly before you can figure out he/she/it's purpose.

As the OP I guess I should answer this.

The question is really asked of theists as I, an atheist, think it's a very difficult one to answer.

We don't have any theists here right now it seems although we had logger and 16.5 very active for a while. Logger lost his cool and got suspended and 16.5 gave up I think. The best they could come up with was - for Gods purpose - "to get to know him."

We still have Navigator here whom I would describe as a "wanabe" theist.

You can describe God however you wish although the one I mostly have in mind is Jesus Christs old man.

 

[Navigator]

But the dog did.

Dogs are wolves who managed to get humans to care for them with almost the love that humans exhibit for their own children, providing food, shelter and medical care, as well as honorary membership in the human pack. If wolves could think and talk about the situation, that would be absolutely amazing to them. "If a human sees me, I'm lucky not to get shot. They actual give you food? You do tricks and they give you treats? And let you in out of the rain? But I could never learn what you need to know. Walking on a leash, herding sheep, fetching dead ducks... they might as well expect me to fly to the moon."

Looking at it from the viewpoint of humans, dogs and wolves seem to have achieved about the same boring doggish level of mundaneness. Looking at it from the wolves' point of view, the dogs have accomplished miracles.

Dogs don't have the intelligence of humans, but they don't need it to achieve the same benefits. They've found another way.

Well Pup - I consider you to be an intelligent enough individual to understand what it is I am saying. A domestic dog is the product of a particular and extremely different ape called 'human' which - as I will continue to remain focused upon, is not at all like the rest of the family of apes, unlike the family of dogs and wolves. (canines).

I know that you and most of the rest of the gang realize well enough what I am pointing out here. Ya'll just can;t seem to take that step toward acknowledging that yes, human beings as an evolved species are way different from all other evolved species on the planet...way different from the apes in general.

So different in fact that you and I would not be able to have this interaction in this manner, if it were not for that incredible difference.

 

[Navigator]

Are you saying that the advanced intelligence and creativity of humans over other species is to do with some other cause than advanced evolution? If so, please explain what the “other cause” is.

I am not so much saying that as simply pointing out that there is a vast difference. One would expect that all the critters would generally be at about the same evolutionary phase as each other, and this is true of the families of critters, apart from apes and humans. Humans are more advanced than the rest of their 'family' and the rest of their family only are advanced as all of the other critters except humans. Humans are the anomaly critter on the planet.

Take from that what you will, once of course you acknowledge it as true.

 

[Pup]

Well Pup - I consider you to be an intelligent enough individual to understand what it is I am saying. A domestic dog is the product of a particular and extremely different ape called 'human' which - as I will continue to remain focused upon, is not at all like the rest of the family of apes, unlike the family of dogs and wolves. (canines).

I'll approach this more seriously, since the lighthearted approach didn't work.

You're saying that humans selectively bred wolves to be dogs, through a process that Darwin would call artificial selection, to distinguish it from natural selection. In his day, people accepted that humans could selectively breed for certain traits in domestic animals, so Darwin used that as a starting point to help people accept and understand his revolutionary new idea, that animals were naturally (by nature) being selected.

We've come a long way since Darwin. Now what I'm asking you to do is consider the mind blowing idea that there is no artificial vs natural selection. It's all natural selection.

Humans think we're deliberately breeding dogs, but from the dogs/wolves point of view, humans are just another change in their environment that they need to adapt to.

Lions kill zebras, but the zebras with the most confusing coloration get eaten last, so zebras' environment selects for stripes. The lions have bred stripes into zebras, by letting the best striped zebras live.

Now substitute wolves for zebras and humans for lions. The wolves who have the least natural fear of humans and fire get scraps from human meals, so fearlessness is selected for. The fearless wolves who tag along with the humans hunting get more food, and if they help by driving game, they get even more and a place by the humans' warm fire.

Their environment has changed dramatically with humans in it, but these new humans can be a good niche to exploit, and life leaves no niche unexploited. Dogs, cattle, camels, horses, hogs, chickens, cats, all compete and adapt, and benefit from the new niche, in the same way climate change, extinction, the spread of species, and other dramatic changes in the environment cause upheavals, new niches, and new competition for resources.

Can you picture humans as just one more natural environmental factor? Can you think of the cutest dog in the litter being the most fit for survival today, just as the best hunter might have been the most fit in a wolf litter?

Or are you so convinced that humans are special and making special choices, that the ecosystem couldn't possibly be continuing as always with them in it?

Edited to add: darn it, it's so hard to write about natural selection without implying that animals are trying, Lamarckian-style, to breed themselves better. We all know, I hope, that zebras don't try to have stripes, or wolves don't try to have human-friendly pups. There's a variation in offspring, and more of the fittest ones, on average, will survive. The next generation will also have random variation, with the average maybe a bit more toward the previous generation's success, and again the fittest on average will survive. Multiply by a thousand generations, more or less, and the change in the average might be obvious and genetically "breed true," assuming the environment is stable and hasn't selected differently.

Just wanted to be clear I wasn't saying that animals were trying to evolve to exploit a new niche. They can't help it.

 

[PartSkeptic]

Humans are better evolved than apes (hands, feet and tail).

Our hands are "just right" for strength and dexterity. Wielding a hammer, a sword, or a scalpel or paint brush.

Our feet are "just right" for running, for shoes and balance.

A tail is just excess body weight for a human.

We are "just right" in so many ways. Not too heavy, not too light. And so on.

I have been researching the knee joint. What an amazing piece of engineering.

How does one explain that if the right combinations are not present from an early start then the probability of mutating selectively to an improved model cannot be done. (Oh, let me guess. There are billions and billions of planets and only Earth got the right sequence of combinations? Never mind the infinite number of multiverses.)

When making robots that are versatile, what are they modeled after? Humans or horses.

Of course, my theory is that God does what we do. Goes back to the drawing board and starts again if the revisions cannot get the desired result. Being God he can try any number of times.

How did the quantum field/particles happen to have such versatility to give the universe such complexity? To allow advanced science to be indistinguishable from magic? (Let me guess again - it just happened that way - luckily for us.)

And it permits God to sit back and enjoy the show, while only intervening now and then (relatively speaking).

 

[Pixel42]

And every hole in the road is exactly the right shape for the puddle that sits in it, and the sun rises at exactly the right time for people to get up and go to work. What are the odds, eh? Life is just full of amazing coincidences.

 

[Thor 2]

Humans are better evolved than apes (hands, feet and tail).

Our hands are "just right" for strength and dexterity. Wielding a hammer, a sword, or a scalpel or paint brush.

Our feet are "just right" for running, for shoes and balance.

A tail is just excess body weight for a human.

We are "just right" in so many ways. Not too heavy, not too light. And so on.

I have been researching the knee joint. What an amazing piece of engineering.

How does one explain that if the right combinations are not present from an early start then the probability of mutating selectively to an improved model cannot be done. (Oh, let me guess. There are billions and billions of planets and only Earth got the right sequence of combinations? Never mind the infinite number of multiverses.)

When making robots that are versatile, what are they modeled after? Humans or horses.

Of course, my theory is that God does what we do. Goes back to the drawing board and starts again if the revisions cannot get the desired result. Being God he can try any number of times.

How did the quantum field/particles happen to have such versatility to give the universe such complexity? To allow advanced science to be indistinguishable from magic? (Let me guess again - it just happened that way - luckily for us.)

And it permits God to sit back and enjoy the show, while only intervening now and then (relatively speaking).

Are you serious PS? Have a look at this site:

http://nautil.us/issue/24/error/top-10-design-flaws-in-the-human-body

Oh here is a bit about the knee that you thing is such a great piece of "engineering".

2. An inflexible knee

Problem: As Latimer says, “You take the most complex joint in the body and put it between two huge levers—the femur and the tibia—and you’re looking for trouble.” The upshot is your knee only rotates in two directions: forward and back. “That’s why every major sport, except maybe rugby, makes it illegal to clip, or hit an opponent’s knee from the side.”

Fix: Replace this hinge with a ball and socket, like in your shoulders and hips. We never developed this type of joint at the knee “because we didn’t need it,” Latimer says. “We didn’t know about football.”

 

[Cosmic Yak]

Humans are better evolved than apes (hands, feet and tail).

Our hands are "just right" for strength and dexterity. Wielding a hammer, a sword, or a scalpel or paint brush.

Our feet are "just right" for running, for shoes and balance.

A tail is just excess body weight for a human.

We are "just right" in so many ways. Not too heavy, not too light. And so on.

I have been researching the knee joint. What an amazing piece of engineering.

How does one explain that if the right combinations are not present from an early start then the probability of mutating selectively to an improved model cannot be done. (Oh, let me guess. There are billions and billions of planets and only Earth got the right sequence of combinations? Never mind the infinite number of multiverses.)

When making robots that are versatile, what are they modeled after? Humans or horses.

Of course, my theory is that God does what we do. Goes back to the drawing board and starts again if the revisions cannot get the desired result. Being God he can try any number of times.

How did the quantum field/particles happen to have such versatility to give the universe such complexity? To allow advanced science to be indistinguishable from magic? (Let me guess again - it just happened that way - luckily for us.)

And it permits God to sit back and enjoy the show, while only intervening now and then (relatively speaking).

I think it's time for the banana video again.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YfucpGCm5hY

 

[abaddon]

Humans are better evolved than apes (hands, feet and tail).

How come chimpanzees are so much better at climbing trees than us? How come chimpanzees are so much stronger than us? How come chimpanzees feet are so much more versatile than ours?

Our hands are "just right" for strength and dexterity. Wielding a hammer, a sword, or a scalpel or paint brush.

Cart before the horse. Hammers, swords scalpels and paint brushes are designed to fit our hands, not the other way round.

Our feet are "just right" for running, for shoes and balance.

Shoes are designed to fit our feet. The sense of balance does not derive from the feet but rather from eyes, ears and proprioception.

A tail is just excess body weight for a human.

And a gorilla, and a chimpanzee and so forth.

We are "just right" in so many ways. Not too heavy, not too light. And so on.

Just right according to what measure? As apes go we are one of the feeblest, with a very small natural range, outside of which we cannot survive without artificial assistance.

I have been researching the knee joint. What an amazing piece of engineering.

It's terrible actually. And fails easily. And commonly does not last a lifetime.

How does one explain that if the right combinations are not present from an early start then the probability of mutating selectively to an improved model cannot be done. (Oh, let me guess. There are billions and billions of planets and only Earth got the right sequence of combinations? Never mind the infinite number of multiverses.)

What a load of rot. 3.5 billion years ago we and every other living thing started out from single celled organisms. They didn't have knees.

When making robots that are versatile, what are they modeled after? Humans or horses.

What a limited view you have of robotics. I suppose you think the Mars Curiosity rover is modelled after a six wheeled centaur.

Of course, my theory is that God does what we do. Goes back to the drawing board and starts again if the revisions cannot get the desired result. Being God he can try any number of times.

Wild guess unsupported by anything.

How did the quantum field/particles happen to have such versatility to give the universe such complexity? To allow advanced science to be indistinguishable from magic? (Let me guess again - it just happened that way - luckily for us.)

Please. o not try to slide both Kalam and fine tuning under the door.

And it permits God to sit back and enjoy the show, while only intervening now and then (relatively speaking).

Which makes him a total dick unworthy of worship.

 

[Cl1mh4224rd]

Humans are better evolved than apes (hands, feet and tail).

That's pretty subjective. You have to consider the question, "Better at what?" Because there are several areas in which an ape outperforms a human: natural physical strength being one of the more obvious.

 

[Pup]

take that step toward acknowledging that yes, human beings as an evolved species are way different from all other evolved species on the planet...way different from the apes in general.

I know that you and most of the rest of the gang realize well enough what I am pointing out here. Ya'll just can;t seem to take that step toward acknowledging that yes, human beings as an evolved species are way different from all other evolved species on the planet...way different from the apes in general.

I was thinking about this, and it occurred to me that the question, are humans more advanced than all other species, was framed the way a theist would ask it. A biologist would ask, are humans more advanced in intelligence? (Sure) Or self awareness? (Obviously)

The quotes above make the goal even more suspicious. We're supposed to say yes, humans are different. They're not the way we expect species to evolve.

And then comes the next step, if we admit that.

If someone talks like a theist in a religious dicussion, I expect the next step will be, don't you agree that humans couldn't have gotten so advanced by evolution alone. And then: Therefore there is a god or spiritual entity (or whatever the person is advocating).

I'd agree that humans are more advanced in self awareness and intelligence. Do you agree with me that this could have been caused by evolution through natural selection, the same as every species has evolved? (Note I'm just asking for could, not was.)

My next step will be: therefore humans aren't uniquely different from other animals. And then: therefore there's no need to invoke anything other than natural causes to explain humans.

Shouldn't be a problem, because you say you're in the middle and not necessarily a theist, so I'd think such a person would need an idea how humans appeared without a god, in case there wasn't one. If not evolution, what?

 

[Hlafordlaes]

... Which makes him a total dick unworthy of worship.

As opposed to a dick that is worthy of...? Oh, never mind.

***
Human achievement, being cumulative, masks the tremendous layers of detail that it took to get here. In this sense, contemporary civilization is as inviting as are, say, eyes, to the intelligent design argument when speaking of evolution. Attributing our advancement to a difference in nature is tempting, but mistaken. Humans be animals, as our forebears. We fart and bleed.

 

[Magrat]

Watch a woman give birth, that's all you need to see we are just like every other critter.

 

[Pup]

Watch a woman give birth, that's all you need to see we are just like every other critter.

Ehhh, makes me think we're below the average critter. Pelvis and infant skull not a good fit. But yes, we're certainly no better than the average critter under those circumstances.

 

[Navigator]

Actually, we are able to create better circumstances for birthing to take place and we can also deal with complications which might arise thus giving both mother and child better chances of surviving.

 

[PartSkeptic]

Are you serious PS? Have a look at this site:

http://nautil.us/issue/24/error/top-10-design-flaws-in-the-human-body

Oh here is a bit about the knee that you thing is such a great piece of "engineering".

Did you read the comments criticizing the article?

Ball joint for a knee? Ridiculous. We would collapse at the first need to zig-zag to avoid being eaten. The muscles could not cope.

The others were not much better.

Give me your "perfect design" for anything, and I will critique it to show that it is totally mono-functional, rather than the amazing versatility of the human.

 

[PartSkeptic]

That's pretty subjective. You have to consider the question, "Better at what?" Because there are several areas in which an ape outperforms a human: natural physical strength being one of the more obvious.

Better at becoming the superior species and conquering not only nature but the physics we live by. By a very long shot. We send probes into outer space, we landed on the moon, we have nuclear fission etc.

 

[PartSkeptic]

Watch a woman give birth, that's all you need to see we are just like every other critter.

The human brain is still growing and developing until the age of about 8. It needs lots of input at this time as well. We have complex societies to care for the child, and still feed and protect ourselves. We are well ahead in terms of complexity and intelligence. There are some individuals that may not be.

 

[abaddon]

Better at becoming the superior species and conquering not only nature but the physics we live by. By a very long shot. We send probes into outer space, we landed on the moon, we have nuclear fission etc.

You are a dominionist? Good grief.

We are not a superior species.

We do not ever "conquer" nature or physics. We are constrained by both. All we can do is discover what those constraints actually are.