God without The Bible – Challenge to Theists

[Brattus]

Let's see. It's a forum of religion and philosophy. I didn't start the thread but if I had a guess it would be to initiate a discussion about reasons for belief without using the bible.

Why? Ever hear of something called the dialectic?

Again, not my thread but I'm a former believer and that is likely so in part because someone challenged me to live an examined life and not simply accept the dogma I was indoctrinated with.

We live in a society. The well being of that society and any social and moral progress is dependent on decreasing ignorance and challenging conventions and mores.

I don't see a whole lot of stamp collectors having national days of prayer, getting on school boards and adding unscientific ideas to the curriculum, suppressing proven comprehensive sex education, giving money to organizations prohibited by the constitution, etc..

To add to the national dialog, to be civically minded, to contribute to the dialectic in hopes of moving the zeitgeist.

Which raises a very important question, why are YOU here?

I could go to a religious forum and ask people why the hell they are discussing religion? Dude, let me clue you into a little known secret, JREF is a skeptics forum. Okay, perhaps this will help:

Please note the red circled text, note it doesn't say "to protect precious beliefs".

Those who find that skepticism and critical thinking offensive ARE IN THE WRONG DAMN FORUM!

But hey, I understand, you took a wrong turn, you might want to try www.mylittlepony.com (I concede that the last two sentences are smarmy and not in keeping with "friendly" which is also in the statement of purpose in the banner. Perhaps wrong of me but I so tire of people being shocked to find shop keepers at the shop).

Best of luck (the equivalent of a diet coke with a Big Mac and fries).

So religion is a bad thing. OK.
What does that have to do with what other people believe?

According to you we can't win for losin'.

With the believers it's their way or no way and now with the nonbelievers it's the same way.

This thread is a call out to believers so the nonbelievers can gang up on them and tell them how stupid they are while basking in their own superior intellect.
Once again I can understand a believer posting a thread to convert the masses. That is what they do.
Why would it matter to any of you why a believer believes?

I know what kind of forum this is. That's why I'm asking what I'm asking.

I thought call out threads were frowned upon on this forum.

 

[Brattus]

Oooops - Sorry about this thread. Rushed writing and posting it due to other pressing life issues and made a complete hash of it (premature articulation).

Let me start again - When I ask Theists (Christian) why they believe in a god they almost always use the Bible as their “proof“. People believed in a god before there was a Bible so it’s merely a “modern convenience” source of “proof”. I would like to know what God evidence Theists can provide without using The Bible or any historic literature in any way. Surely there would be more evidence of an all-powerful, all-knowing, all-present creator of everything than ancient texts. If a God exists he/she/it would exist just as much today as thousands of years ago. Where/what is the current evidence a God Exists? Hope that makes more sense than the OP.

This is just repeating what the OP has already stated.
This does not answer why you would care what other people believe.

It is fairly obvious to anyone with a functional brain that there is no god and never has been.

It's not good enough that you know this?
You have to start a thread to start a fight.

Makes no sense to me.

 

[Bram Kaandorp]

This is just repeating what the OP has already stated.
This does not answer why you would care what other people believe and why.

It is fairly obvious to anyone with a functional brain that there is no god and never has been.

It's not good enough that you know this?
You have to start a thread to start a fight.

Makes no sense to me.

Since when is it uncharacteristic for atheists to want to know the reasoning of people of unlike minds?

If I can speak for myself:

I am very much interested in knowing what makes a theist a theist.

It doesn't mean that I want to know more ways to ridicule them. Not in the least.

 

[yomero]

....

Dynasty asks about the first sexually reproducing organisms. I am not a biologist, I don't completely understand the mechanism involved. Any corrections on the following paragraphs will be welcomed.
......

There is the alternate theory of ''neomuran revolution''. That, I understand even less.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_of_sexual_reproduction

Several posts on this thread have touched on sexual-asexual reproduction, and the origin of sexual reproduction. In that case, I don't think it would be a derailment to ask that someone with knowledge of biology would clarify this topic. On post # 65 I wrote my layman's perspective. It's incomplete and probably inaccurate. Will somebody with authentic information explain this topic to us? A kind of ''The Origins of Sexual Reproduction for Dummies''.

 

[mikeyx]

Theists say people have existed for around 6000 years. For over 4000 of those years they would have had to have been aware of their God without the “benefit” of what is written in The Bible.

So here's my challenge to Theists . . .

Present your belief that a God exists without referring to The Bible in any way.

clean up your argument, by theist you mean christian, otherwise youre a generalizing troll.

 

[RandFan]

So religion is a bad thing. OK.

Did I say religion is a bad thing?

What does that have to do with what other people believe?

I've not a clue what you are referencing?

According to you we can't win for losin'.

Sorry?

With the believers it's their way or no way and now with the nonbelievers it's the same way.

No, did I say that? Oh wait, forget the question, I DIDN'T SAY THAT. Sheesh.

This thread is a call out to believers so the nonbelievers can gang up on them and tell them how stupid they are while basking in their own superior intellect.

Paranoid on their behalf? Mind reader?

Once again I can understand a believer posting a thread to convert the masses. That is what they do.

Glad you are capable of that degree of comprehension....

Why would it matter to any of you why a believer believes?

Go back and read my post! If you can't figure it out from that then clearly you are either too incompetent to understand the answer or you don't want to know.

I know what kind of forum this is. That's why I'm asking what I'm asking.

I'm sorry but THAT doesn't explain it. In fact, it's a really dumb answer.

Bob: Jim, why are you being skeptical in a skeptics forum?
Jim: Bob, isn't that self evident?
Bob: Yes which is why I'm asking?
Jim:

I thought call out threads were frowned upon on this forum.

This ISN'T a call out thread.

 

[RandFan]

Since when is it uncharacteristic for atheists to want to know the reasoning of people of unlike minds?

If I can speak for myself:

I am very much interested in knowing what makes a theist a theist.

It doesn't mean that I want to know more ways to ridicule them. Not in the least.

Dear JREF members,

It's true that the "E" in JREF means education. It's true that this a skeptics forum dedicated to skepticism and critical thinking. It's also true that the Religion and Philosophy forum is, in part about religion. However, it's important to point out that atheists are not allowed to be skeptical of theists nor are they to be critical of theology or try and learn more about theists. Please ignore them and we can all be happy.

 

[Bram Kaandorp]

Dear JREF members,

It's true that the "E" in JREF means education. It's true that this a skeptics forum dedicated to skepticism and critical thinking. It's also true that the Religion and Philosophy forum is, in part about religion. However, it's important to point out that atheists are not allowed to be skeptical of theists nor are they to be critical of theology or try and learn more about theists. Please ignore them and we can all be happy.

Even though I'm pretty sure you're joking, I can actually go along with that, as long as religious people on the forum will not busy themselves with scientific topics.

As a great Dutch comedian once said, when he was talking about the pope and birth control:

If you don't practice the sport, you shouldn't interfere with the rules.

That being said, I actually have nothing against religious people in scientific topics, just like I have no problem with atheists in religious topics.

 

[RandFan]

Even though I'm pretty sure you're joking, I can actually go along with that, as long as religious people on the forum will not busy themselves with scientific topics.

As a great Dutch comedian once said, when he was talking about the pope and birth control:

If you don't practice the sport, you shouldn't interfere with the rules.

That being said, I actually have nothing against religious people in scientific topics, just like I have no problem with atheists in religious topics.

Tongue firmly planted in cheek. I respect other view points including those about how to run the forum. It is by no means mine. However, so long as it is a skeptics forum and so long as those who come here know that then, IMHO, there are no sacred cows. There are only the rules of the forum. If someone voluntarily comes here then they are fair game for questioning. Now, that doesn't mean they are fair game to abuse and I concede that at times I cross that line (see my post above with the graphic of the JREF banner). But I think that sometimes, some posts, are so egregiously silly that they beg for ridicule.

There are some great theists here and I don't attack them. I treat people in kind. The thread isn't an attack on theists. It's a fair question and completely within the rules of JREF. If someone acts as if there is something wrong with the thread then I'm going to take them to task.

Otherwise I respect your opinion and apologize for standing so long on this soapbox.

 

[bikerdruid]

Yes you did here in your first post:

"i am a theist......"

A theist is someone that believes in at least one god!

i believe that there is a all pervasive, sentient, creative force in the universe.
i do not claim any knowledge of what or who that force is.
but, i have some ideas.
i believe that to claim that knowledge, is pompous beyond belief.
i'm not sure if that makes me a 'theist', but i know it disqualifies me as an atheist.

 

[Bram Kaandorp]

i believe that there is a all pervasive, sentient, creative force in the universe.
i do not claim any knowledge of what or who that force is.
but, i have some ideas.
i believe that to claim that knowledge, is pompous beyond belief.
i'm not sure if that makes me a 'theist', but i know it disqualifies me as an atheist.

That's a classic description of an ietsist (somethingist).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ietsism

 

[RandFan]

i believe that there is a all pervasive, sentient, creative force in the universe.
i do not claim any knowledge of what or who that force is.
but, i have some ideas.
i believe that to claim that knowledge, is pompous beyond belief.
i'm not sure if that makes me a 'theist', but i know it disqualifies me as an atheist.

I can sure live with that.

 

[ynot]

What is the purpose of this thread?

To hopefully learn why others believe what is completely unbelievable to me. It could be said to be a testing of what they believe and what I don't believe. Hopefully the truth will prevail eventually.

I could understand a thread started by a believer trying to convert the godless hordes but I do not understand a nonbeliever calling out and then trying to convert believers.

So I shouldn't question, enquire about or criticise the actions and beliefs of others? Yet you are doing exactly that to me. Why are you trying to convert me?

What is it to you why they believe?
If their belief system works for them then great.

Theistic beliefs turned in to actions often have a negative effect on my life and on societies in general. What "works for them" doesn't work for me.

I don't see a whole lot of non stamp collectors laying down challenges to stamp collectors. What would be the point?

Whether people collect stamps or not has no negative effect on my life or societies in general. There would therefore be no point and your analogy is pointless.

Has life really gotten this slow and boring?
There really isn't anything else better to fill your time?

Has your life gotten so slow and boring that all you can do is criticise? There really isn't anything else better to fill your time?

 

[ynot]

This is just repeating what the OP has already stated.
This does not answer why you would care what other people believe.

It is fairly obvious to anyone with a functional brain that there is no god and never has been.

It's not good enough that you know this?
You have to start a thread to start a fight.

Makes no sense to me.

This is just repeating what you have already stated.

 

[ynot]

Let's see. It's a forum of religion and philosophy. I didn't start the thread but if I had a guess it would be to initiate a discussion about reasons for belief without using the bible.

Why? Ever hear of something called the dialectic?

Again, not my thread but I'm a former believer and that is likely so in part because someone challenged me to live an examined life and not simply accept the dogma I was indoctrinated with.

We live in a society. The well being of that society and any social and moral progress is dependent on decreasing ignorance and challenging conventions and mores.

I don't see a whole lot of stamp collectors having national days of prayer, getting on school boards and adding unscientific ideas to the curriculum, suppressing proven comprehensive sex education, giving money to organizations prohibited by the constitution, etc..

To add to the national dialog, to be civically minded, to contribute to the dialectic in hopes of moving the zeitgeist.

Which raises a very important question, why are YOU here?

I could go to a religious forum and ask people why the hell they are discussing religion? Dude, let me clue you into a little known secret, JREF is a skeptics forum. Okay, perhaps this will help:

http://img688.imageshack.us/img688/5919/jrefbanner.jpg

Please note the red circled text, note it doesn't say "to protect precious beliefs".

Those who find that skepticism and critical thinking offensive ARE IN THE WRONG DAMN FORUM!

But hey, I understand, you took a wrong turn, you might want to try www.mylittlepony.com (I concede that the last two sentences are smarmy and not in keeping with "friendly" which is also in the statement of purpose in the banner. Perhaps wrong of me but I so tire of people being shocked to find shop keepers at the shop).

Best of luck (the equivalent of a diet coke with a Big Mac and fries).

You said it better than I did - thanks.

 

[ynot]

clean up your argument, by theist you mean christian, otherwise youre a generalizing troll.

I apologised for the OP in a later post and tried to "clean it up"

"When I ask Theists (Christian) why they believe in a god" - http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=7414649#post7414649

Perhaps you should take the time to read a thread before you accuse people of trolling.

 

[ynot]

This is just repeating what the OP has already stated.
This does not answer why you would care what other people believe.

It is fairly obvious to anyone with a functional brain that there is no god and never has been.

It's not good enough that you know this?
You have to start a thread to start a fight.

Makes no sense to me.

You essentially tell god believers that they don't have a functioning brain then accuse me of starting a fight!

 

[ynot]

I always have a problem with this...how does time and (I assume) experience have any real value from an atheistic point of view?


I grant that the following isn't an entirely accurate analogy but I think it helps get the point across:

1 X 0=0

as does

5,987,678 X 0=0


As far as I am aware, oblivion is nothingness or zero. If the end result is the EXACT same irregardless of the amount of different things experienced then how can one "waste" time (be it in a church or otherwise)?


P.S. I am not saying that being an atheist automatically means you have to view your life as meaningless. I just want to know how things like time can be viewed as having value from your perspective

This is a subject I would really like to discuss/debate and will start a thread for this pupose as soon as I get time. Or someone else could start it.

 

[ynot]

Started the new thread here - http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=7418123#post7418123

 

[RandFan]

You said it better than I did - thanks.

You know, there are presunptive, smarmy and rude threads against theists. Hell, I've started a few when I was angry as a way to let off steam. Had you been snarky or condesending I wouldn't have been so hard on the guy. But you asked a thoughtful question. His post was simply uncalled for.