God without The Bible – Challenge to Theists

First of all, I don't know any educated person who says that people have been around 6000 years.
Google Young Earth creationism and see how many people say this. Regardless how deluded they may be I'm sure they are educated.

Secondly, do you define God as an invisible man who lives in the sky? If you do, come on, man, get serious, ok?
It's as good a decription as I've ever seen. Sorry but I really can't get serious about a god regardless of how you describe such a fantasy being, OK?.

So your challenge is easy. The Universe had no logical reason for existance.
There obviously is a Universe and it doesn't need a reason to exist.

There should be no such thing as a universe.
Tell that to the god you believe created it.

A more logical explaination would be that instead of believing that the universe exists because of magic would be that the universe barely exists at all and our known universe is part of a much bigger reality. God is that which no greater can be thought.
I don't believe the Universe exists because of magic. I don't believe magic exists. It's not logical (let alone "more logical") to assume anything is bigger/greater than the Universe when we have no credible evidence anything but the Universe exists.

It makes sense that hour universe is just like a single idea in the mind of a multiverse.
So the Universe is much younger than 6000 years then? :p
 
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how does any of that relate to me?
i am not a christian.
i am not a muslim.
i don't proselytize.
i have devoted my life to teaching kids to read, write and question everything.
i think it is interesting that you seem to think that i have missed something.
Well apart from it not being all about you it's at least related to you in that you are a Theist (you believe in a god). You said this earlier but now seem to be denying it.
 
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Evolution. I accept that evolution is right, but there are a couple things in evolution i don't get. Possibly just ignorance on my behalf, but I've tried to find answers via research, and haven't found anything that popped out. I don't understand the jump from asexual reproduction to sexual reproduction. asexual reproduction is a far more efficient means of reproduction, evolutionary jump to sexual reproduction would be a step backwards.
.

Because two parents produce stronger children, more able to survive their environment because both their parents were well adapted to it enough to pass their genes on

Asexual reproduction just produces children.
 
Because two parents produce stronger children, more able to survive their environment because both their parents were well adapted to it enough to pass their genes on

Asexual reproduction just produces children.

Don't you mean clones?
 
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Evolution. I accept that evolution is right, but there are a couple things in evolution i don't get. Possibly just ignorance on my behalf, but I've tried to find answers via research, and haven't found anything that popped out. I don't understand the jump from asexual reproduction to sexual reproduction. asexual reproduction is a far more efficient means of reproduction, evolutionary jump to sexual reproduction would be a step backwards.

yeah i have seen that. what i don't get is the first generation, so this asexual creature splits into 2 sexual creatures, wouldn't they both be the same sex. evolution doesn't take place on a large scale, so 1 or 2 out of millions change to sexual, i just don't get how it caught on so well,,, almost everything has sex now

The 2 statements that I have hilited are a bit contradictory. Perhaps ''almost everything has sex now'' is an exageration, but a large number of multicellular species do, indicating that there must be some advantage in it.

It is believed that sexual reproduction increases fitness by creating genetic variation (allowing progeny to face better environmentally difficult times), by repairing damaged DNA during meiosis (damaged DNA strand uses the undamaged homologue as a template), and by masking potentially dangerous mutations ( the normal gene from the other parent would allow a normal phenotype in the offspring).

Dynasty asks about the first sexually reproducing organisms. I am not a biologist, I don't completely understand the mechanism involved. Any corrections on the following paragraphs will be welcomed.

According to one hypothesis, eukaryotes (animals, plants, protozoa, etc.) arose from the combination of a bacteriophage virus, a bacterium, and an archaeon (superficially similar to bacteria, but in reality a completely separate domain).The phage and archeaean genomes become the nucleus, the archaea's cytoplasm becomes the eukaryote's functional cytoplasm, and bacteria become the mitochondria.

The phage has fusion proteins that allow fusion with a neighboring cell that includes a closely related, but not identical phage. As I understand, the 2 nuclei mix together, and this results in a diploid, eukaryote- like, cell that would replicate by mitosis to form a mass. Perhaps we can consider that mass as somatic cells. At some point in one particular cell, the genetic material that originally came from one of the parent cells would be positioned next to its homologue from the other parent, allowing crossing-over. Then, one set of the genome (haploid) would go to one end of the cell, the complementary set would go to the other pole. When this cell divides, the result would be 2 daughter cells, each with a copy of the DNA of just one of the original phages, but including the changes that took place while crossing-over. This haploid cell could be considered a ''gamete''. If it is separated from the mass of the rest of the cells, it could find another ''gamete'' to fuse with and start the mechanism over again.

There is the alternate theory of ''neomuran revolution''. That, I understand even less.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_of_sexual_reproduction
 
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,,, almost everything has sex now
Actually, that's not true. The overwhelming amount of biota on earth right now is still single celled. They don't have sex.

As an aside, can you see if you can fix the Shift key on your keyboard. It doesn't work now.
 
If your god belief is merely a hunch and you're living your life according to that hunch then you're gambling your lifetime away on a hunch. I would say time is more valuable than money.


I always have a problem with this...how does time and (I assume) experience have any real value from an atheistic point of view?


I grant that the following isn't an entirely accurate analogy but I think it helps get the point across:

1 X 0=0

as does

5,987,678 X 0=0


As far as I am aware, oblivion is nothingness or zero. If the end result is the EXACT same irregardless of the amount of different things experienced then how can one "waste" time (be it in a church or otherwise)?


P.S. I am not saying that being an atheist automatically means you have to view your life as meaningless. I just want to know how things like time can be viewed as having value from your perspective :)
 
SWEET!

Big bang, so everything came from nothing, ok, i can accept that but there should be equal parts matter and antimatter. But theres not, otherwise there'd just be energy left. then subatomic particles turned to atoms, then some atoms combine to more complex atoms blah blah blah (i know there's a lot more involved, just abbreviating) which explains basic elements. I don't get how anything biological came to be. But i can accept that it did just because of the quantity of matter.

Who said something came from nothing? I think it would be more accurate to say that something new came from something which already existed. There had to be something to "explode" in the big bang. What that was? Dunno, maybe an ultradense conglomeration of energy and mass....
 
Its the absoluteness of things, for apparently no reason at all. Its the everything from nothing. its the way the puzzles fit together so well that make me think that there is a creator.


You find two rocks about a mile apart....later you happen to bring them together and find that they FIT perfectly.

Do you assume that someone made the two separate rocks such that they would fit together? Or do you conclude that maybe they were at some stage one rock that broke apart and due to some process they ended up so widely separated?

You investigate further and find that in fact there was a flood only recently that resulted in a torrent. So the rock might have struck something broke up and one piece traveled further along the torrent due to being lighter or not encountering other obstacles etc. etc.

Isn't the natural solution so much more in keeping with the Occam's Razor principle than assuming that some person created two rocks in such a ways so as to fit together and placed them widely apart?


Things in nature seem to fit so uncannily not because they were made to fit....they fit because they fit..... if they did not fit then they would not be the way they are and there would be no discussion. If you look at the sky and see a rabbit in the fluffy clouds it does not mean that someone made a bunny out of condensed water vapor. It means that YOU are assigning meaning to a shape that happens to be the way it is and YOU are trying to make SENSE out of it.

If there are certain things we don't understand today does not mean that there isn't a natural reason for them. Assuming the God of the Gaps to explain things you do not understand is a COPOUT.

Also assuming a God of Hindsight (yes it is me who coined the phrase (c) 2011) is even a bigger copout. To say that now we know how something works naturally but in reality god did it all along that way to give us an indication of his hand in it is an ATROCIOUS LIBEL against nature and reason.

A while back when we did not know what caused diseases we assumed God/Devil did them. Now that we know what causes them we still pray to God to cure them when we do not know how to cure them. But the ones we know how to cure we do not pray to god…but still assume god created the creatures that cause the diseases.

When we did not know how the cosmos works we assumed it was god and his angels that wound the clockworks. Now we know we don’t assume that god keeps the clock wound but we still assume he made the clock.

By the way….. a sexual reproduction was the modus operandi in the oceans where it was easy to spread genetic material into the currents and guarantee wide distribution. Sexual reproduction became necessary on land where spraying sperm and eggs along the currents would not be possible. But you may notice that POLLEN for trees is a viable asexual means that STILL works.

By the way….evolution from asexual to sexual was NOT a sudden thing….there are TODAY organisms that are BOTH asexual and sexual. So that shows how the TRANSITION between the two occurred gradually and bisexual :p creatures are a missing link of sorts (not quite).

By the way…the Big Bang does NOT assert that matter and the universe started from nothing….that is just the THEISTS WISHING it to have said so. Most cosmologists today would NOT say that the big bang is the start of the UNIVERSE as opposed to the universe….. like I said to you before….it all depends on how wide your SCOPE OF DEFINITION for the word universe goes.

Maybe OUR CORNER of the UNIVERSE (i.e. universe) started with a big bang…. But the UNIVERSE (we need a better word…maybe HYPER-UNIVERSE???) did not start with a big bang. In the Hyper-Universe there are millions of Big Bangs that have happened or are in the process of happening or will happen to create millions of universes. Maybe Big Bangs are actually Big Oscillations etc. etc.

It is a little ironic that the Big Bang theory was started by a CATHOLIC PRIEST and that now it is such a DARLING of theists to use against science and to intimate that god is the SINGULARITY before the big bang. What a convenient SCAM.

Ah…another point….in evolution there are no BACKWARDS or FORWARDS….there is Genetic Mutation and Environmental SELECTION.

Let me see if I can simplify evolution……

DNA replicates….. this replication can sometimes go wrong (i.e. the copy is not faithful :p) …. This error can either result in failure of the fetus or no effect at all, or a slight change in the fetus but still surviving to term.

Now this new baby is SLIGHTLY different from the ORIGINAL PLAN…. This slight difference can either be deleterious as far as the environment as the baby grows up in or it can be advantageous. If it is disadvantageous then the baby will have none or very few babies of its own. If the change is advantageous then the baby will have more babies of its own that resemble it who are able to survive better due to inheriting the NEW TRAIT.

Over millions of years the ENVIRONMENTAL SELECTION will ensure that the organism better suited to survive in it will have a reproductive advantage and thus more copies of it will occupy the environment.

There is NO BETTER OR WORSE….there is NO FORWARD OR BACKWARD…..we humans are NOT the APEX of evolution….we are ONE BRANCH along the HUMUNGOUS tree with all but uncountable branches.
 
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i am a theist.i view the bible as a collection of writings about a particular line of believers, largely allegorical and mythological..
it has nothing whatever to do with my beliefs.
i believe the earth to be billions of years old.
i believe that the big bang was the initiating event in the creation of our universe.
i believe in evolution.
how do this fit with your post?

sorry......did i say that i had a god?
..............did i say she did anything?

Yes you did say you had a god, that's what theist means. See hilited.
 
I always have a problem with this...how does time and (I assume) experience have any real value from an atheistic point of view?


I grant that the following isn't an entirely accurate analogy but I think it helps get the point across:

1 X 0=0

as does

5,987,678 X 0=0


As far as I am aware, oblivion is nothingness or zero. If the end result is the EXACT same irregardless of the amount of different things experienced then how can one "waste" time (be it in a church or otherwise)?


P.S. I am not saying that being an atheist automatically means you have to view your life as meaningless. I just want to know how things like time can be viewed as having value from your perspective :)

Simple:

Life is what you make it.
 
There are puh-lenty of theists who don't rely on the Bible for their beliefs, so taking away that element is no challenge for at least, a fair amount of them. And even the ones who use the Bible as a strong argument, wouldn't be affected. They would simply say something like "Aahh but of course. You want to take away the only reliable evidence I have? That's like taking away my gun in a duel and expecting me to win".
 
Nope. It is not.
Why do you feel the need to use the word god? If it's presumptuous to assume we are not part of something greater then it is arrogant to assume that we are? Why can't we live with what there is and what theoretical physicists tell us can be? Why can't we have possibilities of what could be without sticking god into our ignorance?

i guess some of us breezed past the Science program.
Which program?

What do you like to watch and learn?
My main interest in books is the Mind. Last week I read The Accidental Mind. This week I'm re-reading the Blank slate. I've read The Elegant Universe and Brief Moment in Time. I've watched every episode of Wonders of the Universe with Brian Cox and Morgan Freeman's Through The Wormhole. If it's science I watch it, NOVA, TLC, Discovery, Science Channel. I subscribe to YouTube science programs that feature NASA and other science programming.

We know the smallest part of a much bigger picture.
"The Universe is not only queerer than we suppose it is queerer than we can suppose". --J.B.S. Haldane

On the other hand:

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." --Arthur C. Clarke

So, WE are gods by your logic.
 
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God is that which no greater can be thought.
Fatuous.

It makes sense that hour universe is just like a single idea in the mind of a multiverse.
No, it DOES NOT make sense. That is your wish fulfillment kicking in. It's argument from ignorance and that is anything but sense.

You should enjoy this: 50 academics talk about god. It's a half hour of nothing but reason and lucid statements of the obvious.

BTW: If you want to fill humanities gaps of knowledge with god then that's your prerogative. I know of no reason to do that though.
 
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There are puh-lenty of theists who don't rely on the Bible for their beliefs, so taking away that element is no challenge for at least, a fair amount of them. And even the ones who use the Bible as a strong argument, wouldn't be affected. They would simply say something like "Aahh but of course. You want to take away the only reliable evidence I have? That's like taking away my gun in a duel and expecting me to win".
Oh, you are right, but then I would counter that my copy of The Hobbit is evidence of Dragons, Elves and a ring that can make me invisible.
 
Theists say people have existed for around 6000 years. For over 4000 of those years they would have had to have been aware of their God without the “benefit” of what is written in The Bible.

So here's my challenge to Theists . . .

Present your belief that a God exists without referring to The Bible in any way.

What is the purpose of this thread?

I could understand a thread started by a believer trying to convert the godless hordes but I do not understand a nonbeliever calling out and then trying to convert believers.

What is it to you why they believe?
If their belief system works for them then great.

I don't see a whole lot of non stamp collectors laying down challenges to stamp collectors.
What would be the point?

Has life really gotten this slow and boring?
There really isn't anything else better to fill your time?
 
What is the purpose of this thread?

I could understand a thread started by a believer trying to convert the godless hordes but I do not understand a nonbeliever calling out and then trying to convert believers.

What is it to you why they believe?
If their belief system works for them then great.

I don't see a whole lot of non stamp collectors laying down challenges to stamp collectors.
What would be the point?

Has life really gotten this slow and boring?
There really isn't anything else better to fill your time?

On page 1 ynot clarifies himself quite sufficiently.
 
What is the purpose of this thread?
Let's see. It's a forum of religion and philosophy. I didn't start the thread but if I had a guess it would be to initiate a discussion about reasons for belief without using the bible.

I could understand a thread started by a believer trying to convert the godless hordes but I do not understand a nonbeliever calling out and then trying to convert believers.
Why? Ever hear of something called the dialectic?

What is it to you why they believe?
Again, not my thread but I'm a former believer and that is likely so in part because someone challenged me to live an examined life and not simply accept the dogma I was indoctrinated with.

If their belief system works for them then great.
We live in a society. The well being of that society and any social and moral progress is dependent on decreasing ignorance and challenging conventions and mores.

I don't see a whole lot of non stamp collectors laying down challenges to stamp collectors.
I don't see a whole lot of stamp collectors having national days of prayer, getting on school boards and adding unscientific ideas to the curriculum, suppressing proven comprehensive sex education, giving money to organizations prohibited by the constitution, etc..

What would be the point?
To add to the national dialog, to be civically minded, to contribute to the dialectic in hopes of moving the zeitgeist.

Has life really gotten this slow and boring?
Which raises a very important question, why are YOU here?

There really isn't anything else better to fill your time?
I could go to a religious forum and ask people why the hell they are discussing religion? Dude, let me clue you into a little known secret, JREF is a skeptics forum. Okay, perhaps this will help:

jrefbanner.jpg


Please note the red circled text, note it doesn't say "to protect precious beliefs".

Those who find that skepticism and critical thinking offensive ARE IN THE WRONG DAMN FORUM!

But hey, I understand, you took a wrong turn, you might want to try www.mylittlepony.com (I concede that the last two sentences are smarmy and not in keeping with "friendly" which is also in the statement of purpose in the banner. Perhaps wrong of me but I so tire of people being shocked to find shop keepers at the shop).

Best of luck (the equivalent of a diet coke with a Big Mac and fries).
 
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