Cont: Global warming discussion V

[The Great Zaganza]

another "if we can do 100%, let's do nothing at all" fallacy

 

[The Great Zaganza]

pure 80/20 principle says that you start out with the worst offenders, and work your way down.
Otherwise it's like saying there is no point in investigating murders because people jaywalk

 

[Stout]

Obsess over China then. Their emissions are over three times that of the US.

ETA: Still no takers on the tax that @dann and his merry band of schmucks are claiming you owe?

 

[W.D.Clinger]

According to the numbers in this chart (hover your mouse to see them), the average wealth of a top-10% individual is about 200 times the average wealth of a bottom-50% individual.

That's for the world. According to this chart, which is limited to the US, the top 10% have 67% of the wealth, which means the other 90% have 33% of the wealth, which means the average wealth of a top-10% individual in the US is almost 20 times the average wealth of those who are not in the top 10%.

That doesn't answer my question though.

That's because you didn't read what I wrote. Note especially the first sentence of its second paragraph.

I did, but I dismissed it due to "which is limited to the US". This is a question about global inequality. Who cares about inequality within the US. Sometimes, not everything is about America.

What you are saying, @Stout, is that you tried to read what I wrote but failed to understand the English language in which it was written.

My first paragraph was about global inequality. The first sentence of the second paragraph emphasized the point by saying "That's for the world." The rest of that second paragraph went on to consider the situation in the United States.

Lol U mad bro?

I assume he was laughing at your failure to comprehend English. That's why I was laughing.

 

[Stout]

Oh I read it just fine. It doesn't even come close to answering the question of just how much wealth one needs to be in the top 10% of global wealth earners/holders. So...how much is it? I've said $93K using decade old data. Anyone want to dispute that?

Looks like we have a few ten percenters in this thread trying to wiggle out of the responsibility for paying the debt these Dutch scientists say they owe.

 

[dann]

Obsess over China then. Their emissions are over three times that of the US.
ETA: Still no takers on the tax that @dann and his merry band of schmucks are claiming you owe?

Are "their" emissions really "over three times that of the US"?
Fossil-fuel fans never get tired of telling that lie!
CO₂ emissions per capita (Our World in Data)

See, there's that European obsession with America again.
How's the EU doing? Got yourselves down to the requires CO2 emissions of 2.3 tones per capita per year yet?
Look over there! It's America!

How the EU is doing? Look at the Our World in Data graph above! And yet my answer to the question is still: Far from enough!
By the way, I've posted enough about Canada recently to make it obvious that this is not a "European obsession with America," unless you're thinking of the continent, which I doubt.

While China is busy implementing the green transition, the USA and Canada are busy helping the owners of fossil-fuel squeeze profit out of heating the planet by increasing CO₂ emissions.

 

[Stout]

Are "their" emissions really "over three times that of the US"?
Fossil-fuel fans never get tired of telling that lie!
CO₂ emissions per capita (Our World in Data)

Why yes, yes they are. That's why you need to alter the statement by introducing the per capita stats. So who's lying now? My original statement still stands China is the worlds largest emitter but if you really want to go with the per capita numbers, I could always reintroduce Palau. But but but..."they're so small" I hear you say. Yes they are, I say as I ask who's problem it is that China has 1.4 billion people.

Look, I get it. It's shameful and embarrassing knowing you're part of the 10% that are trashing the planet, that your lifestyle will lead to the suffering of untold millions but, dammit, I really want those leaded glass patio doors from Vietnam to replace the pedestrian ones that are currently in place.

Canada is currently trying for energy independence to to a rather irksome next door neighbour and Canadians are just as unconcerned about climate change as Americans are. Sure, there's lots of lip wagging going on but when push comes to shove Canadians are going to backburner that climate stuff. As evidenced by out extremely empty brand new AAA (all ages and abilities) system of bike lanes and flagging EV sales.

 

[dann]

Why yes, yes they are. That's why you need to alter the statement by introducing the per capita stats.

Why no, no they aren't. That's why you need to remove the per capita stats to make your lie work.

So who's lying now?

You are!

My original statement still stands China is the worlds largest emitter but if you really want to go with the per capita numbers, I could always reintroduce Palau. But but but..."they're so small" I hear you say. Yes they are, I say as I ask who's problem it is that China has 1.4 billion people.

Please do reintroduce Palau even though it's a ridiculous example.
As a service to you, I have added Palau to the graph, and unlike what you intended, it still doesn't help make the USA and Canada look good in comparison: CO₂ emissions per capita (Our World in Data)

Look, I get it. It's shameful and embarrassing knowing you're part of the 10% that are trashing the planet, that your lifestyle will lead to the suffering of untold millions but, dammit, I really want those leaded glass patio doors from Vietnam to replace the pedestrian ones that are currently in place.

No, it's not at all shameful to be connected to the Danish electrical grid, which is currently (because it's summer!) doing fine thanks to solar and wind. What your "leaded glass patio doors from Vietnam" have to do with it is beyond me*.

Canada is currently trying for energy independence to to a rather irksome next door neighbour and Canadians are just as unconcerned about climate change as Americans are. Sure, there's lots of lip wagging going on but when push comes to shove Canadians are going to backburner that climate stuff. As evidenced by out extremely empty brand new AAA (all ages and abilities) system of bike lanes and flagging EV sales.

With Carney at the helm, it's no wonder that EV sales in Canada are flagging since he seems to be betting on making Canadian fossil-fuel companies rich by catering to its "rather irksome next door neighbour."


* Well, actually no, not really. It serves as your poor argument, the one you have had in common with Myriad since the beginning: People, ordinary people, not the Epstein class with their private jets and mega yachts, are selfish consumers who don't give a damn about CO2 emissions and the climate.
However, for the most part, ordinary people don't really have a choice unless the societies they live in give it to them, which is why my argument from the very beginning has been about giving them that choice and giving them arguments for that choice if their governments (like the ones in the USA and Canada) don't give it to them.
Myriad's radicalism was to claim that it was all a question of people's moral stance and willingness to accept sacrifices and embrace austerity, as if that would somehow balance out the CO₂ footprint of the oligarchs and their paid politicians.

HOW TO TRACK KASH PATEL’S JET (The Intercept, Nov 14, 2026)
FBI DIRECTOR KASH Patel enjoys access to a litany of professional perks, among them use of a Gulfstream G550 jet, a 15-passenger luxury aircraft owned by the Department of Justice that he has reportedly taken to visit his aspiring country musician girlfriend.

According to Google AI, "a Gulfstream G550 jet (...) typically emits roughly 2 to 3 metric tons of CO₂ per hour."

It takes a lot of cold showers to cancel that out.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

Obsess over China then. Their emissions are over three times that of the US.

ETA: Still no takers on the tax that @dann and his merry band of schmucks are claiming you owe?

china is doing more to reduce emissions - globally - than everyone else combined.
Do you have the slightest idea how much power solar cells from China produce all over the world?
It sells the equivalent of 200 nuclear power plant a year across the world in solar power.
And, of course, it's reducing dependence on oil as fast as possible.

In other words, it is doing exactly what you are asking it to do.

Now it's the US's term to do something.
Of course, Trump is making sure that the US getting actively worse when it comes to emissions.

 

[dann]

Well, Trump may be coming around!

Katie Mack on bsky, June 21, 2026
Algae are prolific producers of oxygen (and consumers of carbon dioxide), en masse producing a huge proportion of the oxygen we breathe, which means that the greening of the Reflecting Pool might be the most pro-climate thing Trump has ever done.

 

[Roger Ramjets]

With Carney at the helm, it's no wonder that EV sales in Canada are flagging since he seems to be betting on making Canadian fossil-fuel companies rich by catering to its "rather irksome next door neighbour."

Gas prices and new incentives sparking more EV sales

EV sales have climbed since January, when the Liberal government restored incentives, and just before the U.S. and Israel launched strikes on Iran, sparking a Middle East war that sent gas prices soaring... Taken together, EV sales in the first four months of 2026 were up 20.8 per cent compared to the same period in 2025... More Canadian car shoppers are also considering an EV. An annual J.D. Power survey of new-car shoppers found that 34 per cent of respondents were somewhat or very likely to buy an EV as their next vehicle — up from 28 per cent the year before.

 

[Roger Ramjets]

According to Google AI, "a Gulfstream G550 jet (...) typically emits roughly 2 to 3 metric tons of CO₂ per hour."

It takes a lot of cold showers to cancel that out.

Global CO2 emissions are over 100 million metric tons per day. Even if Kash Patel's jet was flying continuously for 24 hrs a day it wouldn't even be a rounding error in total global emissions. OTOH A few billion people switching to renewable energy sources would make a big difference.

Let Kash Patel ride on his jet, there's only one of him and the Director of the FBI needs to be mobile. Most of the over 2 million people taking airline flights in the US every day don't need to. But airline traffic overall is only a small part of total emissions. 50% of the US population takes less than one flight per year, while the average working-age American drives 15,000 miles per year.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

That is a very damaging attitude.
The problem, obviously, is not a small private jet, about small private jets in general.
They should be very much treated like who gets to have sirens/flashers on their car and priority in emergencies.
The emissions from fuel are massive, but so are the extra logistics and infrastructure and wrong incentives for innovation.

It's not the most pressing problem, but it's a problem with an easy solution.

PS: the director of the FBI does not need to be mobile - he should be as far removed from ground operations as possible, and getting involved just shows poor leadership or hiring practices.

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Funny that "Project Hail Mary" was about global cooling.

 

[Stout]

Why no, no they aren't. That's why you need to remove the per capita stats to make your lie work.

Let the record reflect that the defendant is unwilling to acknowledge that China, as a country, it the world's largest emitter. Request to treat the witness as hostile.

No, it's not at all shameful to be connected to the Danish electrical grid, which is currently (because it's summer!) doing fine thanks to solar and wind. What your "leaded glass patio doors from Vietnam" have to do with it is beyond me*.

Furthermore, the defendant refuses to acknowledge that he is a member of the global 10%, the group currently being charged with trashing the planet due to their excessive carbon intensive lifestyles and mutters on about "the Danish electrical grid" in a desperate attempt to admit culpability.

You will also note that the defendant blathers on about the fossil fuel industry and the Epstein class and displays an inability to understand consumption based emissions in what can only be described as a desperate attempt to absolve himself of all guilt of belonging to a class that he himself introduced to the thread as being responsible for the current climate crisis.

The prosecution suggests the defendant be remanded to a psychiatric facility to determine his current fitness to stand trial and requests a temporary adjournment until that process is completed.

 

[dann]

Gas prices and new incentives sparking more EV sales

Tell it to Stout! He's the one who claimed that ...

Canadians are going to backburner that climate stuff. As evidenced by out extremely empty brand new AAA (all ages and abilities) system of bike lanes and flagging EV sales.

Besides, rising gas prices are probably Carney's incentive for wanting to extract more of it.

Global CO2 emissions are over 100 million metric tons per day. Even if Kash Patel's jet was flying continuously for 24 hrs a day it wouldn't even be a rounding error in total global emissions. OTOH A few billion people switching to renewable energy sources would make a big difference.
Let Kash Patel ride on his jet, there's only one of him and the Director of the FBI needs to be mobile. Most of the over 2 million people taking airline flights in the US every day don't need to. But airline traffic overall is only a small part of total emissions. 50% of the US population takes less than one flight per year, while the average working-age American drives 15,000 miles per year.

There may be only one Kash Patel, but there are more users of private jets in the USA than in the rest of the world combined. According to Google AI:

Among major, populated nations, the United States has the world’s largest fleet of private jets (over 15,000 aircraft), accounting for more than 60% of the entire global fleet.

And it really isn't true that Patel as "the Director of the FBI needs to be mobile." (Depending on the defintion of "need.")

Kash Patel's use of the FBI jet sparks outrage. Here's why he couldn't travel to the Olympics any other way (CNN, Feb 24, 2026)
Since becoming director a year ago, Patel's trips to Nashville and other locations to visit his girlfriend, a golfing destination with friends and to attend hockey games have prompted criticism from Democrats who have demanded the FBI provide information about the use of resources.

Besides, Kash Patel is just an example of a general trend I mentioned, which got Stout going:

World's Richest 10% Are Costing Earth Trillions, Study Finds (ScienceAlert, June 19, 2026)

 

[dann]

'Unhinged!’: Trump spends hundreds of millions on personal battle against U.S. wind farms (MS NOW on YouTube, June 21, 2026 – 5:22 min.)
The Trump administration is set to pay $765 million to end four wind projects, adding to the staggering total President Trump has spent to roll back green wind energy projects. Bloomberg Opinion Senior Executive Editor and MS NOW Political Analyst Tim O’Brien joins Alex Witt to break down this seemingly personal battle and more.

$765 million, that is how much the Trump administration is paying an energy developer not (!!!) to develop wind projects off the coast of New York, California and Maine as the president seeks to push fossil fuels.The Interior Department struck the deal with Invenergy to abandon its offshore wind farms and redirect to natural gas and geothermal projects.
It is the third such deal this year, meaning the government has spent $2 .5 billion in taxpayer money to get companies to undo offshore wind projects.

Trump administration to pay $765 million to scrap four more offshore wind leases (Reuters, June 17, 2026)
Trump Administration to Pay $765 Million to Cancel 4 More Wind Projects (NYT, June 17, 2026)
Trump administration paying another company to give up wind leases, invest in gas and geothermal (The Hill, June 17, 2026)

And this is how the Trump administration presents the art of this particular deal:

Interior Announces New Energy Agreement to Strengthen American Energy Security and Lower Costs (U.S. Department of the Interior, June 17, 2026)
Today, the Department of the Interior announced a settlement agreement with affiliates of Invenergy, North America’s largest privately held developer, owner, and operator of independent power infrastructure, aimed at strengthening American security and lowering costs, advancing goals central to President Donald Trump’s Energy Dominance Agenda.
As part of the settlement agreement, Invenergy will voluntarily terminate its affiliates’ four offshore wind leases located in the New York Bight, Central Coast of California and the Gulf of Maine totaling $765 million, and redirect that amount towards other domestic energy sources with the demonstrated capability to deliver reliable, affordable power, including the development of natural gas-fired power plants in Indiana, Wisconsin, Iowa, Kansas, and Missouri and geothermal power generation projects in the Western U.S.
These landmark settlement agreements provide partial reimbursement for offshore wind leases that required significant taxpayer support. By ending these leases and encouraging investment in reliable, cost-effective conventional energy sources, the settlement agreements promote mutually beneficial projects designed to deliver strong returns for American taxpayers.

Ministries in Nineteen Eighty-Four: Ministry of Truth (Wikipedia)
As well as administering "truth", the ministry spreads a new language amongst the populace called Newspeak, in which, for example, "truth" is understood to mean statements like 2 + 2 = 5 when the situation warrants. In keeping with the concept of doublethink, the ministry is thus aptly named in that it creates/manufactures "truth" in the Newspeak sense of the word. The book describes the doctoring of historical records to show a government-approved version of events.

 

[Roger Ramjets]

That is a very damaging attitude.
The problem, obviously, is not a small private jet, about small private jets in general.

Actually no, the problem isn't private jets in general.

Private jet emissions vs car: which is better for the environment?

Car (1 person) ~200 g of CO₂ per passenger-km
Turboprop (8–9 seats used) ~170–190
Light jet (4–6 seats used) ~380–580

So a car emits about half the CO₂ as a light jet, therefore private jets are the problem!

Not quite. According to Fly Craft there are ~15,000 private jets in the US. Compare that to the 280 million privately owned motor vehicles in the US, most of which are driven every day.

Transportation Sector Emissions Trends

The largest sources of transportation greenhouse gas emissions in 2022 were light-duty trucks, which include sport utility vehicles, pickup trucks, and minivans (37%); medium and heavy-duty trucks (23%); passenger cars (20%); commercial aircraft (7%); other aircraft (2%); pipelines (4%); ships and boats (3%); and rail (2%).

The problem is mostly SUVs, pickup trucks and minivans, medium to heavy trucks, and 'passenger cars', which together account for 80% of transport emissions. Private aircraft are much less of a problem.

Every bit of CO2 reduction helps of course, but people who focus on private jets are off base. Why do they do it?

PS: the director of the FBI does not need to be mobile - he should be as far removed from ground operations as possible, and getting involved just shows poor leadership or hiring practices.

Executives' Use of Aircraft for Nonmission Purposes

All AGs and FBI Directors are "required use" travelers who are required by executive branch policy to use government aircraft for all their travel, including travel for personal reasons, because of security and communications needs... the AG and FBI Director collectively took 74 percent (490 out of 659) of all of their flights for business purposes, such as conferences, meetings, and field office visits...

We are supposed to be skeptics here, meaning we don't just assume things are true because they match our preconceptions. Those are the very things we should be questioning, with solid research and an unbiased mind.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

I'm not against using private planes when it makes the most sense - not the way Patel does it or lets his girlfriend use it.
But it shouldn't just be for convivence - as I said, when you would use an emergency vehicle, you might use a plane.

In an age of teleconferencing, there are very few instances when you really have to physically travel quickly.

 

[Stout]

Besides, Kash Patel is just an example of a general trend I mentioned, which got Stout going:

Still standing by that report? Excellent, that means you agree with what I've been saying all along, that's it's the middle class lifestyle that causing the current climate crisis. It took a while, but even my most stalwart objectors eventually come around and acknowledge that I was right all along. Even climate scientists are starting to agree that the whole avert 1.5C by 2030 was a pipe dream and politicians are starting to realize that adaptation and resilience are the way forward.

Extinction Rebellion has packed it in after finally figuring out that their stupid stunts made the general public just want to get out of their cars to curbstomp them rather than save the planet. I haven't heard of Friday's for Future in years and...

Canadians are downgrading their concerns for climate if favour of more mundane issues like the cost of living under this new "carbon tax" that the closing of the Straits of Hormuz has brought about.

Speaking of private jets, who could forget this. Fun bit starts at 2 minutes in.