Global warming discussion III

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That ....
Whoops, Red Baron Farms, you have fallen into r-j's rhetorical trap :D.
This is where he asks a rather inane question of every poster in this thread, e.g. what is AGW or what is global warming or what is his imaginary "Theory of Global Warming" as if Google or Wikipedia or basic education or even dictionaries did not exist.
If you give him an answer he will pepper you with simplistic questions that imply his ignorance about the subject or are his attempt to imply that you are ignorant about the subject.
Point him to a credible source of information about climate science such as Skeptical Science or RealClimate and he will accuse you of ignoring the scientific literature. But he can cite blogs and web sites whenever it suits him (see the recent posts) :eek:
 
Whoops, Red Baron Farms, you have fallen into r-j's rhetorical trap :D.
This is where he asks a rather inane question of every poster in this thread, e.g. what is AGW or what is global warming or what is his imaginary "Theory of Global Warming" as if Google or Wikipedia or basic education or even dictionaries did not exist.
If you give him an answer he will pepper you with simplistic questions that imply his ignorance about the subject or are his attempt to imply that you are ignorant about the subject.
Point him to a credible source of information about climate science such as Skeptical Science or RealClimate and he will accuse you of ignoring the scientific literature. But he can cite blogs and web sites whenever it suits him (see the recent posts) :eek:
You might be right. He might be trying to trap me. We will find out soon enough when he replies to my post. In either case I can deal with it when I find out where he is going with it. I took the answer directly to the best of my knowledge road to start with. Then we will see if he wants to quibble with any particulars. Plenty of other guys watching the thread with particulars backed by scientific literature, I am sure.
 
If you give him an answer he will pepper you with simplistic questions that imply his ignorance about the subject or are his attempt to imply that you are ignorant about the subject.

Which is odd, since his claims imply he is more of an expert on this topic than every climate scientist on the planet. Just like creationists who think they know more about DNA, fossils and evolutionary theory than biologists do, and that somehow the latter missed all the "obvious" evidence that darwinism is wrong.
 
The value is to my knowledge approx 2 degrees +/- increase in average surface atmospheric temps. ...
I didn't quote everything, since there is no need. What are your scientific sources for all the above? Serious question.
Just like the following.

Do you agree with Hansen when he says "confidence in the CO2 theory", that he is talking about the same theory mentioned as the greenhouse theory?

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Do you agree that the Carbon Dioxide theory is the same as what PLASS explains?

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Do you agree with the IPCC when they state

attachment.php


Do you agree with the extensive article on The Discovery of Global Warming?

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And that NOAA provides a clear definition of the theory here?

http://www.esrl.noaa.gov/gmd/infodata/lesson_plans/The Greenhouse Effect- Fact of Theory.pdf

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Because so far, not a single person in this thread has been able to respond to those questions.

I say that these scientific sources are correct. I agree with the consensus.
 

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He might be trying to trap me.
That's absurd. I have no interest in you personally in any way.

Nor do I care about anyone's unscientific opinions, beliefs or imaginary claims. Understanding what is happening, what influence mankind has, how and why things happen is my goal.

I already agree with the principle of reducing fossil fuels use, as well as stopping the mass deforestation, pollution of water and land, and the rampant changes to vast areas of our world. Even if there is no dangerous warming, I would still fight for clean air and water, sustainable agriculture, and I encourage people to plant trees.

And quit driving so damn much.
 
UAH data

Feb 1981.08
0.057
Feb 2011.08
-0.003

After 30 years of global warming, the 2011 GLOBAL February land temperatures are lower. Certainly "natural variability" will be the handwaving, and it won't matter at all.

So natural variability can, after 30 years of warming, cause the entire world to be over half a degree C colder.

UAH shows Land only Feb 2011 and 2012 were colder than 1981, which again, will mean nothing. Except of course it does mean something.
http://woodfortrees.org/plot/uah-land/from:1980.08/every:12

The ocean temps continue to climb (Feb)
http://woodfortrees.org/plot/hadsst3gl/from:1980.08/every:12

So yet another obvious problem for the theory. Land isn't rising faster than the oceans, which the theory predicts must happen, if it's greenhouse forced warming.

if even we take your cherry picking and trolling serious. it might be a small problem for the AGW theory, but it doesn't change the observed fact of AGW.
 
I'm not leading you or setting you up for a trap, r-j. I'm trying to a) understand what you are actually claiming when it comes to the scientists who disagree with you, as a layman, and b) perhaps help you realise where you mistake lies.

So:

Explain why all those experts are wrong and you're right.

Let's think about this for a moment: you want to convince the general public that you are right. They ask you, justifiably so, why they should believe you over the experts. Don't expect all of them to read up the data. What do you tell them ?
 
Well Real Climate, you were right. He is back to semantics and thinks he got me with a rhetorical trap.

RJ,
Why the semantics? I told you my definition of AGW. Now you want to ask me about others more narrowly defined opinions? Does a rose by any other name smell as sweet? Is the rose only the petals? Or does the rose include the stem and leaves and even the thorns?

The answer of course to both my rose analogy and your questions about AGW are the same. It depends on the context. Generally they are the same thing and you know it already, but they do vary in context a bit. So they are not EXACTLY the same, but they are in general terms focusing on the same observed phenomenon. ie CO2 is a greenhouse gas

Personally I don't see a need to source my post right now. Not until we resolve your rhetorical games. Just a waste of energy until that is sorted, since I don't keep a file of lists of scientific studies for debating AGW like many others commenting on this thread. But I am 100% sure you would have seen them countless times already. I got most of my information off this thread and links to solid reputable sources that people posted here multiple times ad nauseum.
 
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No, the official NWS data shows this. It's obvious.

Not only do you not know that, you can't know what every climate scientist think.

Said who was wrong? You are being unclear with your questions.

Fallacy. Leading question.

Likely? Is that scientific? The NWS Chicago weather data is crystal clear with their data. Nobody has to be confused. The Berkeley pair made a very bad move, and they got caught.
There is no NWS data beyond instances of records. There is NCDC data. Please be specific what data you are using for your comments. You appear to be deliberately obtuse about your answers and it's not doing you any favours.
 
Global warming theory just isn't that complicated, nor is it hard to explain. An enhanced greenhouse effect causes the lower atmosphere to warm, due to an energy imbalance (less IR radiation being lost than solar energy being absorbed) until the emitted IR radiation once again equals the amount of absorbed sunlight. The theory is the Earth must increase its temperature until global energy balance is once again restored. This is the most basic global warming theory, as NOAA, NASA and many other scientific bodies explain.

There may be people who would argue against that, but they aren't posting here.

Calculations based on experiments and theory predict the amount of warming directly caused by the extra CO2 is, by itself, relatively weak. It has been calculated theoretically that, if there are no other changes in the climate system, a doubling of the atmospheric CO2 concentration would cause about 1 deg. F increase, in the global average We may be about 50% of the way toward a doubling of atmospheric CO2, due to fossil fuel burning, burning forests and turning them into parking lots, cities, pastures, cropland or highways and deserts.

The unknown, and very contentious predictions of what that small increase will cause, that is where the major conflicts seem to be.

The theory also predicts (and the models use theory to try and predict these changes) a certain kind of change, different than if the sun was causing warming, or if water vapor was increasing, or if ocean circulation was causing warming.

All of this is basic theory, and when measurements showed this kind of warming, what is predicted by theory, it was considered validation of the theory.

As Cohen et al 2014 states plainly, the theory does not predict winter cooling. There isn't currently any theoretical model that creates a scenario where boreal cold season cools, while the boreal warm season warms.

Why it's happening is of great interest to climate science.

Is it a natural cycle? Or is it due to greenhouse forcing, and an unexpected negative feedback? Is it due to early snow, due to the warming boreal summers?

Is it a change to the jet stream flow?

Why is the Pacific cooling? Will this pattern continue? These are scientific issues.

Ignoring, or worse, rejecting the consensus about global warming theory is the last thing I expected here.

But there is little doubt now, explained or not, that the drastic and long term cooling trend for the boreal cold season is happening, and that it does not fit with current global warming theory.

This does not, as some assume, mean that increased greenhouse forcing will not happen. It does mean that mother nature, as always, laughs at mankinds hubris.
 
UAH data

Feb 1981.08
0.057
Feb 2011.08
-0.003

After 30 years of global warming, the 2011 GLOBAL February land temperatures are lower. Certainly "natural variability" will be the handwaving, and it won't matter at all.

So natural variability can, after 30 years of warming, cause the entire world to be over half a degree C colder.

UAH shows Land only Feb 2011 and 2012 were colder than 1981, which again, will mean nothing. Except of course it does mean something.
http://woodfortrees.org/plot/uah-land/from:1980.08/every:12

The ocean temps continue to climb (Feb)
http://woodfortrees.org/plot/hadsst3gl/from:1980.08/every:12

So yet another obvious problem for the theory. Land isn't rising faster than the oceans, which the theory predicts must happen, if it's greenhouse forced warming.
Your quoted graphs don't show any cooling trend... Why choose UAH, which is a tropospheric measurement, not a surface measurement?

http://woodfortrees.org/plot/uah-land/from:1980.02/every:12/plot/uah-land/from:1980.02/trend
 
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That portion of the measured change in climate that is a result of human influence on the ecosystems of planet Earth. ie..
Do you realize you didn't answer the question?

Is it a theory?

If you say there is no theory, then say it. Many people have claimed there is no theory, but they don't provide any evidence to support that claim. Repetition with no evidence is meaningless.

I say there is a well known theory, and offer evidence why I say that.

It's quite ironic that a page that is about "how to talk to a skeptic" explains it clearly.
In the case of anthropogenic global warming, there is a theory (first conceived over 100 years ago) based on well-established laws of physics. It is consistent with mountains of observation and data, both contemporary and historical. It is supported by sophisticated, refined global climate models that can successfully reproduce the climate’s behavior over the last century.
http://grist.org/climate-energy/there-is-no-proof-that-co2-is-causing-global-warming/

What do you say? And why?
 
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[qimg]http://i.imgur.com/sKDArIo.png[/qimg]

They are not "my" graphs. It's just information.
No, your quoted graphs were here:

UAH data

Feb 1981.08
0.057
Feb 2011.08
-0.003

After 30 years of global warming, the 2011 GLOBAL February land temperatures are lower. Certainly "natural variability" will be the handwaving, and it won't matter at all.

So natural variability can, after 30 years of warming, cause the entire world to be over half a degree C colder.

UAH shows Land only Feb 2011 and 2012 were colder than 1981, which again, will mean nothing. Except of course it does mean something.
http://woodfortrees.org/plot/uah-land/from:1980.08/every:12

The ocean temps continue to climb (Feb)
http://woodfortrees.org/plot/hadsst3gl/from:1980.08/every:12

So yet another obvious problem for the theory. Land isn't rising faster than the oceans, which the theory predicts must happen, if it's greenhouse forced warming.

[qimg]http://i.imgur.com/sKDArIo.png[/qimg]

They are not "my" graphs. It's just information.
Why August as your start point and not February, I thought you were concerned about Boreal winters...?

What is the background on your other posted image. What you have posted is an image from imgur.com. Where has it come from, what data was used to produce it? Just because it has a NOAA watermark in the image doesn't necessarily make it legitimate.
 
It's just information.
That you are lying about, r-j, by
  1. Cherry picking the start date of 1995 to get the trend that you want.
  2. Ignoring the data before 1995 on that graph :eek:!
r-j cherry picks the starting date to get the trend he wants :eye-poppi!
r-j (19 September 2014): Please justify what seems to be an arbitrary selection of 1995 as the starting date of the trend line when there is pre-1995 data in the graph.

The data with a non-lying trend line (data and trend line starting in 1988): http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/cag/time-s...ase=10&firsttrendyear=1998&lasttrendyear=2014
And what the global data actually is: Climate at a Glance: Data Information
 
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R-J, if you are expecting a nice neat theory that can be expressed in a couple of paragraphs then forget it. It's not going to happen.
Do I need to point out the obvious? It already happened. But, that isn't even what bothers me about your post.
The basics are that:

2. Humans emit nearly 10 billion tonnes of CO2 per annum.
No, that is wrong. That you made the same mistake twice, and nobody noticed, it's just so wrong.

r-j, do you agree with the following points?

2. Humans emit nearly 10 billion tonnes of CO2 per annum.
No, and nobody else who knows the first thing about global warming would agree with that either.

I'll let one of the resident experts explain why you are wrong. The rest of it wasn't bad, but that figure is completely wrong.
 
..
2. Humans emit nearly 10 billion tonnes of CO2 per annum.
Sorry, Mikemcc, but for once r-j's pedantic nitpicking without citing any of the sources that he insists with other posters sources so that he can ignore most of the post is right :D
In 2013, global CO2 emissions due to fossil fuel use (and cement production) were 36 gigatonnes (GtCO2); this is 61% higher than 1990 (the Kyoto Protocol reference year) and 2.3% higher than 2012

What you have stated looks like the nearly 10 billion tonnes of C per annum (see that same web page).
 
What do you say? And why?
I say you are playing word games and you should know it. You posted a couple old citations (one was 1955 and it was originally conceived 100 years ago) where they referenced CO2 theory. Knowing full well CO2 theory doesn't differentiate whether the CO2 is naturally occurring or anthropogenic. Simply that CO2 is a greenhouse gas, it fluctuates, and global climate fluctuates. But no where near the refinement of modern climate science. In the last 100 years science has advanced substantially. As I said and answered truthfully, AGW is that portion of climate change that is a result of human influence on the ecosystems of planet Earth. ie.. Primarily the increase of CO2 in the atmosphere. The physical evidence of this is explained here: [1]
 
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Explain why all those experts are wrong and you're right.


And, really, there are only two possibilities for such wrongness: (1) they are all honestly mistaken, or (2) they are all deliberately being wrong.

If it's #1, then how is such honest wrongness so widespread amongst so many climate scientists around the world? How do so many peer-reviewed scientific studies continue this wrongness? Why has this wrongness gained traction in the scientific community over the last thirty years rather than lose traction?

If it's #2, then to what purpose is this worldwide wrongness being perpetrated? When did this organized deliberate wrongness begin? How did it gain ever more converts over the last thirty years such that they too would contribute to the deliberate wrongness? How is this global wrongness coordinated and administered such that the participants know what wrongness to get published?

Neither #1 nor #2 seem particularly plausible to me, but perhaps r-j can select which option he thinks is the case and offer such plausible explanation.
 
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