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General UK politics VII -Return of the Starmer

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Ian Osborne said:
That’s why the referendum was such a unique opportunity, and we blew it. :(
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Because what was put forward was: too complicated for people to understand / not the type of proportional representation people wanted/ not explained well enough for people to understand / grossly misrepresented by those opposed to it.*

*Perm one or all of those.

I am hugely in favour of PR and I looked at it and my first reaction was WTAF! I still voted for it as I thought (probably correctly) it was the only chance we had but lots I know who, in principle, were in favour of PR, either didn't vote or voted against.

IMHO should have been a simple question about whether we wanted to reform the voting system to be / include some form of PR or not and then having established that, consulted on / worked through a more detailed approach and given people a choice on the type of PR.
 
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It's a sad irony that Labour and the tories campaigned against the alternative vote, by claiming that FPTP produces strong and stable governments.

I suppose Cameron should have learned a lesson and made the EU referendum question as vague as it could possibly be.
 
Ethan Thane Athen said:
Because what was put forward was: too complicated for people to understand / not the type of proportional representation people wanted/ not explained well enough for people to understand / grossly misrepresented by those opposed to it.*

*Perm one or all of those.

I am hugely in favour of PR and I looked at it and my first reaction was WTAF! I still voted for it as I thought (probably correctly) it was the only chance we had but lots I know who, in principle, were in favour of PR, either didn't vote or voted against.

IMHO should have been a simple question about whether we wanted to reform the voting system to be / include some form of PR or not and then having established that, consulted on / worked through a more detailed approach and given people a choice on the type of PR.
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I vaguely remember reading at the time that the type of PR they proposed was one which would give results nearest to FPTP.

Mind you, I also remember John Cleese doing a TV ad for the LibDems (or whatever they were called at the time) in favour of it, and being quite sarcastic about the Tory approach that it was too complicated for 'ordinary' people to understand.

I still voted for it.
 
Much like his Brexit didn't survive contact with reality, his Reform candidates are not surviving such contact either.

None of it is his fault though.

Nigel Farage blames 'stupid' candidates as Reform UK stalls in polls

Reform UK leader Nigel Farage, who has faced criticism for suggesting the West provoked Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, pointed the finger of blame at his own candidates

"I think the other thing that's perhaps had a bigger impact is we've just had too many candidates who've said stupid things. I think that's perhaps the reason that we've dropped off a little bit."
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https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/nigel-farage-blames-stupid-candidates-33121035
 
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Honestly the coalition was the best argument against proportional representation you could ask for, and it didn't help that the Lib-Dems cheerfully reneged on things like student loans because they were so desperate to get a referendum. The period when the Tories were depending on the DUP to prop them up wasn't a brilliant argument for it either.
 
Garrison said:
Honestly the coalition was the best argument against proportional representation you could ask for, and it didn't help that the Lib-Dems cheerfully reneged on things like student loans because they were so desperate to get a referendum. The period when the Tories were depending on the DUP to prop them up wasn't a brilliant argument for it either.
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In the event that we get PR in the UK IMO there will be a significant period of time while the parties learn how to play nicely together.
 
The Don said:
In the event that we get PR in the UK IMO there will be a significant period of time while the parties learn how to play nicely together.
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More likely where the major parties decide how much they are willing to pander to whatever fringe group holds the balance of power. I fear PR would just pave the way for the likes of Reform, or some worse successor, to gain real power.
 
From the BBC rolling coverage:

Nigel Farage 'dismayed' at comments from Reform campaigners in Clacton
Reform UK have condemned campaigners for the party who were recorded making racist, homophobic and Islamophobic comments while campaigning to elect Nigel Farage as MP...
...Responding to the footage Farage said: "I am dismayed by the reported comments of a handful of people associated with my local campaign, particularly those who are volunteers.
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I assume he is dismayed they said the quiet part out loud.
 
Sam Coates: Did you tell Craig Williams the date of the election?

Rishi Sunak: I'm furious, it's just not right for me to say anything more.

So that would be "Yes" then.
 
Even worse than that, he claims he can't answer it as there's ongoing inquiry he doesn't want to impact.
 
What sort of idiot is "dismayed" that a party that bases its appeal on anti-immigration rhetoric attracts xenophobes?
 
Ethan Thane Athen said:
Because what was put forward was: too complicated for people to understand / not the type of proportional representation people wanted/ not explained well enough for people to understand / grossly misrepresented by those opposed to it.*

*Perm one or all of those.

I am hugely in favour of PR and I looked at it and my first reaction was WTAF! I still voted for it as I thought (probably correctly) it was the only chance we had but lots I know who, in principle, were in favour of PR, either didn't vote or voted against.

IMHO should have been a simple question about whether we wanted to reform the voting system to be / include some form of PR or not and then having established that, consulted on / worked through a more detailed approach and given people a choice on the type of PR.
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The alernative vote setup that was put up in the PR referendum is a horrible way to hold an election. All of the disadvantages of FPTP & STV with none of the advantages of either. It was picked because it was a losing proposition from day one and Cleggy let himself get so easily hoodwinked.
 
Gulliver Foyle said:
The alernative vote setup that was put up in the PR referendum is a horrible way to hold an election. All of the disadvantages of FPTP & STV with none of the advantages of either. It was picked because it was a losing proposition from day one and Cleggy let himself get so easily hoodwinked.
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I disagree.

It keeps the constituency link, and makes it easier to vote against a candidate. The least unpopular candidate wins as opposed to the candidate with the largest plurality.

It avoids the party list, where you need a party to be utterly demolished for the leadership to loose their seat.

All in all, as far as I can see, it's the system that gives voters the most power to remove any particular candidate regardless of their wider party.
 
jimbob said:
I disagree.

It keeps the constituency link, and makes it easier to vote against a candidate. The least unpopular candidate wins as opposed to the candidate with the largest plurality.

It avoids the party list, where you need a party to be utterly demolished for the leadership to loose their seat.

All in all, as far as I can see, it's the system that gives voters the most power to remove any particular candidate regardless of their wider party.
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If you want that go STV with multi seat constuencies. The alternative vote idea is only a tiny smidge more representative than FPTP, allowing a voter multiple preferences really needs multiple seats to work.
 
Reform say they are investigating the identity of the racist campaigners in the Channel 4 investigation.

They say they are actors paid to discredit the party.

It's all part of the dirty tricks being used against them.
 
Does Nigel think that Leslie Lilley, the Reform Candidate for Southend who wrote of migrants,

"I hope I'm near, these scumbags one day, I'll slaughter them then have their family taken out."

is also an actor planted to make them look bad?
 
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