General Israel/Palestine discussion thread

[USEagle13]

you mean the ottoman empire or the british empire? What "existing society" are you speaking of?

For bonus points tell me how you and the fool became part of aboriginal society.

ftw!!!! +1

 

[a_unique_person]

I comprehended it just fine, thenak you.


You mean the Ottoman Empire or the British Empire? What "existing society" are you speaking of?

For bonus points tell me how you and The Fool became part of Aboriginal society.

I didn't say I did. The creation of the Australia was an invasion, not immigration, with the absurd declaration of 'terra nullus', an empty land. The immigrants into Australia become a part of the country that resulted from the invasion. I can't believe I have to spell this out, it's not that hard to understand.

 

[a_unique_person]

ftw!!!! +1

Edited by kmortis: 

Removed personal comment

 

[a_unique_person]

neither is the latter. It's called assimilation.

And it does not matter what country these so called "Palestinians" are in they fail to do it.

Only country I know of that doesn't have major issues reguarding this group of ppl is Chile.

OK, so the Zionists were going to assimilate into the existing culture?

 

[WildCat]

I didn't say I did. The creation of the Australia was an invasion, not immigration, with the absurd declaration of 'terra nullus', an empty land. The immigrants into Australia become a part of the country that resulted from the invasion. I can't believe I have to spell this out, it's not that hard to understand.

So finally you admit Israelis immigrated rather than invaded.

Progress in baby steps...

Now why do you think Arabs were so outraged over Jewish immigration? What role, if any, do you think militant Nazi-like anti-semitism played?

 

[USEagle13]

Edited by kmortis: 

Removed previously moderated content and respose to same.

OK, so the Zionists were going to assimilate into the existing culture?

The existing culture was by no means anything dominate.

here is the defintition in case you forgot Assimilate

"Cultural assimilation is a socio-political response to demographic multi-ethnicity that supports or promotes the assimilation of ethnic minorities into the dominant culture"

Jews are by far the dominating culture in the Region known as Israel and all the prosperity they have created sure as heck is not because of Palestinian inginuity.

As a matter of fact they had given them sulf sustaining greenhouses in the past along with the land as a gift.

Did the the Palestianians use them properly or thank them!? Hell no they tore em down, looted em for parts, and starved themselves.

 

[WildCat]

OK, so the Zionists were going to assimilate into the existing culture?

No, they wanted to create a culture where Jews were safe from militant anti-semitism. If you noticed, there is still a thriving Arab culture within Israel. Good luck finding a thriving Jewish culture in any Islamic state.

 

[USEagle13]

No, they wanted to create a culture where Jews were safe from militant anti-semitism. If you noticed, there is still a thriving Arab culture within Israel. Good luck finding a thriving Jewish culture in any Islamic state.

Yeah it is bad enough Jerusalem is already divided into 3 parts. Luckily though they all get along fine except for the blood thirsty crazy military insurgents.

Get their militant counterparts out of there and everything is fine. Not all the Palestinians are militant.

But for the mere fact that ALL of the militants inside Israel seem to be Arabic, they are going to have no choice but to create safety zones for the Jewish ppl.

Militant Palestinians are creating the problems not the Jews. Look at Jordan or Lebanon and all the wars they have had with these militants that "claim" they are Palestinians.

WTH is all that about!?

 

[Mycroft]

So you are anti-immigration?

Anti-Jewish immigration. He's fine with the Arabs that were immigrating into the area.

 

[Mycroft]

I wasn't aware of the Nationalistic goals of China Town or little Italy. Maybe we will see the Home of the Chinese or maybe the Home of the Catholic being proclaimed in the US? You appear to be suggesting these US citizens are a fifth column?


I would suggest its an analogy fail.

Except that those people from more than 100 years ago didn't have the gift of foreknowledge you want to ascribe to them. "Establishing a homeland for the Jewish people" could have meant a lot of different things. Herzl first proposed an entity that wasn't even a nation-state as we know it, just a region where people of all ethnicities and religions could form communes and co-ops together. Other possibilities could have been a Jewish district within the Ottoman Empire or a combined Jewish/Arab state.

History could have taken a lot of different paths, but as always you want to deny Arab responsibility of the choices they have made.

 

[a_unique_person]

So finally you admit Israelis immigrated rather than invaded.

Progress in baby steps...

My point of view has not changed.

Now why do you think Arabs were so outraged over Jewish immigration? What role, if any, do you think militant Nazi-like anti-semitism played?

If you refer to my previous post, the immigrants to Australia were a part of an invasion, depending on whose point of view you took, the people who lived there, or the people arriving with the intention of making it their country. It has been made quite clear, this was a land with no people 'terra nullus' for a people with no land. The people who lived there did not exist. Immigrants who have the intention of creating a new country for themselves at the expense of those who already live there are invaders. These so called immigrants proceeded to set up their own army, terrorist groups and air force.

 

[Mycroft]

My point of view has not changed.


If you refer to my previous post, the immigrants to Australia were a part of an invasion, depending on whose point of view you took, the people who lived there, or the people arriving with the intention of making it their country. It has been made quite clear, this was a land with no people 'terra nullus' for a people with no land. The people who lived there did not exist. Immigrants who have the intention of creating a new country for themselves at the expense of those who already live there are invaders. These so called immigrants proceeded to set up their own army, terrorist groups and air force.

You lose me when you say "at the expense of". The truth is nothing bad has happened to Palestinian-Arabs that isn't the direct result of armed violence against Israel or their own Muslim brethren forcing them into the role of victim to keep the conflict going.

Just think how different history could have been if the Arabs had someone other than the Nazi (literally) Haj Amin al-Husseini to represent them.

 

[HoverBoarder]

David's "Kingdom" was a slight exaggeration and fantasy, as was most of the Old Testament. But that is really irrelevant, as are most of the ancient myths. They give us an insight into an ancient people, but you still have the problem of how to reconcile creation of a modern Israel where people were already living. The Zionists recognised that problem, and, despite much debate, never really came up with anything like a workable solution. That is the state we find ourselves in today.

OK, why does this even matter, and much more importantly, how does this in any way help the Palestinians or give solutions for the Israeli/Palestinian conflict?

If it doesn't have anything to do with solutions, than why are you so focused on it?

 

[HoverBoarder]

All threats should be taken seriously, wether verbal or physical. Once one makes an intention of a verbal threat the last thing is to actually do it.

If anyone wants to operate in any form of civilized culture then they must understand this concept. Failure to do so shows how naive, ignorant, and stupid the person making the threats really are (or anyone who dismisses the threats as rubbish).

Would you yell out to your neighbor you were going to kill him and his family including his kids and expect that neighbor to not make some form of lawful action against you?

Think about what you just said. Did Hitler mean what he said about the Jews? Did Bush or Obama mean what they said about war on terror?

Did you mean what you said about it's rhetorical viagra? If you did then you are insane mind.

He was being sarcastic, I am pretty sure he would agree with just about everything you said in you post (as do I).

 

[trustbutverify]

Correct.

Druid has expressed the opinion that many of the declarations of Hamas leaders are not to be taken seriously- they are only machismo outbursts expected of arab males.

 

[HoverBoarder]

So there are solutions to this problem, but Netanyahu does not seem at all interested in working towards that goal, and neither do many Palestinians. The Palestinians being recognized under the UN may end up being the best step that they could take. Eventually they will have to deal with Hamas's genocidal goals, but being declared a State might end up making them take responsibility for their actions.

As for bad ideas in this crisis, at the top of the list is the assertion by the former CIA official Robert Baer who said that "there is almost near certainty that Netanyahu is planning an attack (on Iran)…and it will probably be in September." While Baer did not site all of his sources, he did include the quote from the former Mossad chief Meir Dagan who said that warnings of an Israeli attack was “no bluff.”

Israel to attack Iran, says ex-CIA official

Israel Plans to Strike Iran in September


Now we have been through a series of near attack warnings from Israel on Iran, and all of them have been decried as REALLY REALLY bad ideas by most people around the world, but what surprised me was how many supportive comments there were for such an attack on Israeli news sources like Ynet and Jerselum Post.

Ynet news: Israel Plans to Strike Iran in September

As is the story with many parts of this crisis, the danger here is how the many people who are supportive of such an attack are behaving dangerously unrealistically. An attack would not weaken Iran, and it would needlessly kill A LOT of Innocent Israelis, Americans, Iraqis, Palestinians, and Iranians.

If Israel wants to actually reduce the threat from Iran, they need to weaken Iran's ability to use Israel as a scapegoat for their actions. The primary way to do that would be to reach a viable peace agreement with the Palestinians. Something that Netanyahu and the other radical Israeli Hawks have no intention of doing. Until Israel gets serious about its own security by addressing the long term problems of the status of their neighbors, they are only continuing to hurt themselves.

While Israel will not (hopefully) attack Iran, as such an action would be so diametrically opposed to their own interests and security, they are doing nothing to help themselves by beating the drum of war. The Israeli citizens need to demand that their government get serious about the steps needed for peace with the Palestinians and their neighbors (dropping the Jewish State requirement and making reasonable concessions on settlements) for their own security just as much as the Palestinian Citizens need to demand that their "governments" get serious about their long term security and freedom by taking the necessary steps needed for peace (getting Hamas and others to drop their aim of destroying Israel).

 

[HoverBoarder]

Correct.

Druid has expressed the opinion that many of the declarations of Hamas leaders are not to be taken seriously- they are only machismo outbursts expected of arab males.

BD wants to create a good guy-bad guy scenerio so that he can point his finger at an Israeli boogyman. We all adopt or create boogymen in our lives so that we can feel justified in our own world views, but some people are more willing than others in how far we will go in stretching the truth to create them.

As for BD's boogeyman,

There is nothing that is "freedom fighting" in Hamas's goals of genocidal revenge.

There are legitimate reasons for Palestinians to want their own State, and more freedoms and rights, but those who are actually fighting for freedom in Palestine have goals that are completely opposite from the goals of Hamas.

 

[a_unique_person]

OK, why does this even matter, and much more importantly, how does this in any way help the Palestinians or give solutions for the Israeli/Palestinian conflict?

If it doesn't have anything to do with solutions, than why are you so focused on it?

I didn't bring up ancient Israel . I do think it is important to agree that this is not all about Palestinians being evil and persecuting Jews because it's one of their more popular forms of entertainment. There is a long and complex history behind this, not a simple narrative of "good guy meets bad guy. Because he is bad I have no moral obligations on my part to resolve this."

 

[WildCat]

As for bad ideas in this crisis, at the top of the list is the assertion by the former CIA official Robert Baer who said that "there is almost near certainty that Netanyahu is planning an attack (on Iran)…and it will probably be in September." While Baer did not site all of his sources, he did include the quote from the former Mossad chief Meir Dagan who said that warnings of an Israeli attack was “no bluff.”

What makes it a bad idea? Iran has been attacking Israel through proxies since the revolution. And now they're making nukes.

 

[USEagle13]

OK, why does this even matter, and much more importantly, how does this in any way help the Palestinians or give solutions for the Israeli/Palestinian conflict?

If it doesn't have anything to do with solutions, than why are you so focused on it?

It helps Israel with credability since Palestinians claim that prior to WW1-WW2era no Jews ever lived there and there never was a state of Israel.

Finding artifacts from King Solomon and King David's kingdomss throw this ill logic under the preverbial bus and give more relevance to the OT as an actual History book passed down from the ages.

Palestinians 0
Israel+1 FTW!

So there are solutions to this problem, but Netanyahu does not seem at all interested in working towards that goal, and neither do many Palestinians. The Palestinians being recognized under the UN may end up being the best step that they could take. Eventually they will have to deal with Hamas's genocidal goals, but being declared a State might end up making them take responsibility for their actions.).

Your wrong. Netanyahu is fine with them even being recognized as a state. Only problem is the conditions to which the Palestians want it under.

Did you not see him correcting Obama on the border issues like a father would a red headed step child?

Or his speech b4 congress that Obama was supposed to attend but instead he flew halfway across the world to act Irish?

As for bad ideas in this crisis, at the top of the list is the assertion by the former CIA official Robert Baer who said that "there is almost near certainty that Netanyahu is planning an attack (on Iran)…and it will probably be in September." While Baer did not site all of his sources, he did include the quote from the former Mossad chief Meir Dagan who said that warnings of an Israeli attack was “no bluff.”).

Good. At least some country has the balls to do it. It's funny that it's one of the smallest but it has the biggest nuts.

Now we have been through a series of near attack warnings from Israel on Iran, and all of them have been decried as REALLY REALLY bad ideas by most people around the world, but what surprised me was how many supportive comments there were for such an attack on Israeli news sources like Ynet and Jerselum Post. ).

Oh. You mean the same ppl that had really really bad ideas about solving economic issues think stoping Iran from commiting mass genocide in the future is a really really bad idea.

Why am I not surprised!?

As is the story with many parts of this crisis, the danger here is how the many people who are supportive of such an attack are behaving dangerously unrealistically. An attack would not weaken Iran, and it would needlessly kill A LOT of Innocent Israelis, Americans, Iraqis, Palestinians, and Iranians.).

Feel free to eloborate why.

If Israel wants to actually reduce the threat from Iran, they need to weaken Iran's ability to use Israel as a scapegoat for their actions. The primary way to do that would be to reach a viable peace agreement with the Palestinians. Something that Netanyahu and the other radical Israeli Hawks have no intention of doing. Until Israel gets serious about its own security by addressing the long term problems of the status of their neighbors, they are only continuing to hurt themselves.).

How would negotiations solve anything when Iran repeatedly state they want to wipe lil satan (Israel) and big satan (USA) off the face of the earth.

Evidently you don't take verbal threats seriously and you were lying in your above post when you said you agreed with me.

While Israel will not (hopefully) attack Iran, as such an action would be so diametrically opposed to their own interests and security, they are doing nothing to help themselves by beating the drum of war. The Israeli citizens need to demand that their government get serious about the steps needed for peace with the Palestinians and their neighbors (dropping the Jewish State requirement and making reasonable concessions on settlements) for their own security just as much as the Palestinian Citizens need to demand that their "governments" get serious about their long term security and freedom by taking the necessary steps needed for peace (getting Hamas and others to drop their aim of destroying Israel).

So they should wait for other countries to invade them 1st.

Not a good idea.

Sooo.....you know Egypt has M1A1 tanks now right? Along with alot of other US weaponry.

USA's new national anthem should be Britney's Spears' "Ooops I did it again song"

Play the 1st 2 min of it. Goes along perfectly with this situation. I have the lyric video linked too so you can read em and sing along if you want.