General Israel/Palestine discussion thread - Part 4

[trustbutverify]

Ignore the rhetoric for one moment, why is Israeli swapping criminals for hostages and many more criminals than they are getting back as returned hostages?

Hamas have learned that the Israelis will hand back criminals who have attacked Israelis, by taking Israelis hostage. That guarantees Hamas will take hostages.

What choice do they have? Hamas is an organized crime operation, and kidnapping is one of their swindles. The only way Israel can free their people is by paying the ransom. It's disgusting, but that's the way it is.

 

[trustbutverify]

Cuz Hamas wants to swap persons for persons. Why not 1 to 1? Ask Bibi, he's in charge.

Nonsense.

 

[Leumas]

Yes..

Good... I am glad you agree finally that this is not a war but rather Ethnic Cleansing and genocide in order to maintain the apartheid state of the European Zionist Jihadists' Settler Colonialist project planned for 127 years ago by Theodor Herzl onwards and aided and abetted by the Christian Zionists of Europe.

Thanks for finally admitting it....

 

[Roboramma]

What is your point?

I think it was pretty clear. There is no moral equivalence between Israel and Hamas here. Basically this:

The "tunnels" under the hospital were simply for expanded space for the hospital, built in the 1990s. Hamas using a hospital for military operations is terribly immoral and puts the lives of hundreds of innocent people at risk. Another war crime by war criminals.

You went from:

Knowing that Hamas did not dig the original tunnel system, is part of my increasing knowledge that Israel has been exaggerating Hamas use of human shields.

To:

Hamas demonise Israel and Israel demonise Hamas, as both sides try to gain support and justify their cause. That is typical behaviour of the vile men of violence, on both sides, who are responsible for the deaths of many innocents, on both sides, who just want to peacefully get on with their lives.

And there's just no justification for this moral equivalence in your second paragraph from the facts in the first. What does the question of who dug the tunnels have to do with the war crime inherent in the particular use that Hamas put them to?

 

[lionking]

Good... I am glad you agree finally that this is not a war but rather Ethnic Cleansing and genocide in order to maintain the apartheid state of the European Zionist Jihadists' Settler Colonialist project planned for 127 years ago by Theodor Herzl onwards and aided and abetted by the Christian Zionists of Europe.

Thanks for finally admitting it....

Okay, so that you will pay attention:

IT IS A WAR

What part of the operation, including the comprehensive defeat of Hamas, is not warlike?

Hamas got what it deserved.

 

[Cosmic Yak]

A more proportionate response to the initial Hamas attack would have been to snatch an equivalent number of Palestinians as hostages and then exchange 1 for 1. Giving the Palestinians criminals in return for hostages is a very poor deal, especially when it is far more than 1 to 1.

In what world is kidnapping innocent civilians a 'more proportionate response'? How does resorting to criminality make one better than criminals?
I wonder if you aren't just shilling for Hamas: is it your intention to make Israel more unpopular by encouraging it to do even worse things than it's already doing?

Hamas have learned that the Israelis will hand back criminals who have attacked Israelis, by taking Israelis hostage. That guarantees Hamas will take hostages.

And now you're victim blaming.

 

[Nessie]

And they have no regard for the cost of taking hostages. This is what started this war which Hamas will lose badly.

Agreed. The point I also make, which you like to misrepresent for reasons you are unable to explain, is that Israel is also going to come out of this badly. You strangely think that my comments on how Israel's actions have lost international support and caused future Palestinian resentment and likely future attacks are anti-Israel and pro-Hamas.

Hamas are men of violence, who love to cause chaos, get others killed, even Palestinians, driven by one of the major religions, that like all religions, is used as an excuse by such men to be violent.

Israel can defeat Hamas, but by doing so, they are building the next group of men who will resort to violence, and especially kidnapping, as it is so effective.

 

[Nessie]

What choice do they have? Hamas is an organized crime operation, and kidnapping is one of their swindles. The only way Israel can free their people is by paying the ransom. It's disgusting, but that's the way it is.

There are the options of never paying for hostages, which makes taking them pointless. Rescuing them. Both options are risky. There is also an option, never used, which is for Israel to arrest Palestinians as hostages and only swap them, 1 for 1.

 

[Nessie]

I think it was pretty clear. There is no moral equivalence between Israel and Hamas here. Basically this:


You went from:


To:



And there's just no justification for this moral equivalence in your second paragraph from the facts in the first. What does the question of who dug the tunnels have to do with the war crime inherent in the particular use that Hamas put them to?

Again, the issue is about inaccurate information and false claims, something that became very apparent right at the start, with all of the lying about beheaded babies.

You are dodging that issue, and are discussing another issue, a strawman.

 

[Nessie]

In what world is kidnapping innocent civilians a 'more proportionate response'? How does resorting to criminality make one better than criminals?
I wonder if you aren't just shilling for Hamas: is it your intention to make Israel more unpopular by encouraging it to do even worse things than it's already doing?

Like Israel with read what I, Nessie have to say!

I know that Israel taking an equivalent number of hostages and trading them is something never done before. But as a tactic, it is far less destructive than what they have done, which is pretty much destroy Gaza, kill many people and get a lot of Palestinian criminals released.

And now you're victim blaming.

It is an uncomfortable fact that complying with kidnapper demands causes more kidnappings.

 

[Planigale]

Israel knew about the tunnels under the hospital, because they dug them? Is that right? If so, what did they use them for?

It is standard SOP for Israeli hospitals to have this type of basement. Israel built the basement when they built the hospital. The basements are dual purpose; in Israel they are bomb shelters, in Gaza they are military command and control centres.

However it is clear that hospitals only lose their protection under international humanitarian law if they are actively in use as a military facillity. The IDF admits that (if they had ever been present) Hamas had abandoned the hospital prior to the arrival of the IDF. That means that the hosppital was a protected place under IHL when the tanks rolled in, and when staff were detained.

Certainly what was shown in no way fits with the sophisticated facillity the IDF claimed was present. Escape tunnels and a bomb shelter do not breach IHL.

Specific protection of medical establishments and units (including hospitals) is the general rule under IHL. Therefore, specific protection to which hospitals are entitled shall not cease unless they are used by a party to the conflict to commit, outside their humanitarian functions, an "act harmful to the enemy". In case of doubt as to whether medical units of establishments are used to commit an "act harmful to the enemy", they should be presumed not to be so used.
The expression "act harmful to the enemy" is not defined under IHL. This body of law merely singles out a few acts expressly recognized as not being harmful to the enemy, such as the carrying or using of individual light weapon in self-defense or defense of wounded and sick; armed guarding of a medical facility; or the presence in a medical facility of sick or wounded combatants no longer taking part in hostilities.

Notwithstanding the lack of an agreed definition, the rationale for a loss of protection is clear. Medical establishments and units enjoy protection because of their function of providing care for the wounded and sick. When they are used to interfere directly or indirectly in military operations, and thereby cause harm to the enemy, the rationale for their specific protection is removed. This would be the case for example if a hospital is used as a base from which to launch an attack; as an observation post to transmit information of military value; as a weapons depot; as a center for liaison with fighting troops; or as a shelter for able-bodied combatants.

Note the presence of light weapons for personal defence is specifically not an exception to the IHL protecting hospitals.

https://www.icrc.org/en/document/protection-hospitals-during-armed-conflicts-what-law-says

 

[Planigale]

Why are the Israeli's exchanging criminals for hostages? Why do they exchange so many criminals for each hostage?

https://twitter.com/segal_eran/status/1728336592807346616

Tweet by a Palestinian

""She was 16 when they snatched her from me, she’s 24 now. I couldn’t watch her fall asleep for 8 long years, tonight she’s sleeping in my arms. She’s still my little baby. Time stopped for me.” The mother of Marah, who was released today in the hostage swap. Free Palestine"

Reply by an Israeli

"Let me fix it for you:
She was not "snatched" from you. She was arrested after stabbing a Border police cop
And it is not a "hostage swap": The Israelis freed are children, women, and elderly who were brutally kidnapped from their homes only because they were Jews. The Palestinians released are convicted terrorists kept in jail because they tried to murder Jews"

A more proportionate response to the initial Hamas attack would have been to snatch an equivalent number of Palestinians as hostages and then exchange 1 for 1. Giving the Palestinians criminals in return for hostages is a very poor deal, especially when it is far more than 1 to 1.

Israel has taken hostages since 7/10, nearly three thousand. Palestinians legally present in Israel had their work permits / residency withdrawn became illegal and were arrested under military authority. This is illegal under international law. There is no suggestions any of the three thousand detained committed any crimes. Those held under military detention have minimal legal rights, they are deprived of a right to court review and medical care. The conditions of detention are deliberately punitive. Under interrogation they can be threatened with physical harm and their famillies can be threatened. They can be physically stressed and for women this can include sexual touching, including deprivation of sleep sensory deprivation and stress positions to cause pain. If interrogators feel there is a time sensitive issue e.g. knowing something about the hostages detainees can be subject to moderate physical pressure including beatings, electric shocks to genitals, rape, removing finger nails. Confessions obtained under duress are then presented in military courts and used to convict Palestinian detainees.

International law is clear civilians should be sunject to civil authorities and not military authorities, and should be tried in civilian courts not military courts. So all these detainees are illegally detained under international law. It is hard to find a better explanation than them being taken as hostages.

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/n...an-detainees-amid-spike-in-arbitrary-arrests/

https://www.btselem.org/administrative_detention

https://euromedmonitor.org/en/artic...estinians-are-taking-place-in-Israeli-prisons

https://www.ohchr.org/sites/default...rsions/A_HRC_53_59_AdvanceUneditedVersion.pdf

 

[Roboramma]

Again, the issue is about inaccurate information and false claims, something that became very apparent right at the start, with all of the lying about beheaded babies.

You are dodging that issue, and are discussing another issue, a strawman.

What inaccurate information and false claims? Who built the tunnels has absolutely nothing to do with any meaningful question here. I don't know whether or not it was common knowledge that the tunnels were build as part of the hospital, but I also don't care, because the hospital having had tunnels already in place doesn't in any way excuse Hamas from running a military base there. I don't see why you think Israel having built a basement to a hospital is in any way bad.

 

[Planigale]

Why are the Israeli's exchanging criminals for hostages? Why do they exchange so many criminals for each hostage?

https://twitter.com/segal_eran/status/1728336592807346616

Tweet by a Palestinian

""She was 16 when they snatched her from me, she’s 24 now. I couldn’t watch her fall asleep for 8 long years, tonight she’s sleeping in my arms. She’s still my little baby. Time stopped for me.” The mother of Marah, who was released today in the hostage swap. Free Palestine"

Reply by an Israeli

"Let me fix it for you:
She was not "snatched" from you. She was arrested after stabbing a Border police cop
And it is not a "hostage swap": The Israelis freed are children, women, and elderly who were brutally kidnapped from their homes only because they were Jews. The Palestinians released are convicted terrorists kept in jail because they tried to murder Jews"

A more proportionate response to the initial Hamas attack would have been to snatch an equivalent number of Palestinians as hostages and then exchange 1 for 1. Giving the Palestinians criminals in return for hostages is a very poor deal, especially when it is far more than 1 to 1.

She (Marah Bakir) was accused and found guilty of attempting to stab an Israeli Border Policeman in 2015 when she was fifteeen. She continues to claim she is innocent. She was freed a few months early (planned release date April 2024). She is a victim of illegal detention and trial under international law. She was illegally (under international law) deported from the West Bank and imprisoned in Israel (making it very difficult to have family visits). In contravention to international law although she was a minor she was held in an aduilt prison; this is true for Palestinians as young as twelve.

One case, that of 16-year-old Marah Bakir, exemplifies the abuses girls endure at every stage of Israel’s arrest process, the groups say.

Marah was shot 10 times before she was arrested in October 2015, accused, according to Addameer, of intending to stab an Israeli soldier near her school in occupied East Jerusalem.

Though Marah has insisted that she had no intention to carry out such an attack, she was sentenced in January to more than eight years in prison.

Israeli forces first brought Marah to a hospital, where her leg and wrist were shackled to the bed and she was watched by two male guards.

“One of the guards told her to die, and another guard took a ‘selfie’ with her against her will,” according to the statement.

When Marah was transferred to prison, Israeli authorities denied her adequate medical care.

Over five decades of military occupation in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, more than 10,000 Palestinian women have been detained by Israeli forces.

Like Palestinian boys and men, the girls and women are often arrested during violent night raids or at military checkpoints. They are frequently blindfolded, their hands tied and then they are taken to an interrogation center in a military jeep.

They usually are not told why they have been arrested, or given access to an attorney. Harsh interrogations, sometimes amounting to torture, can last for days.

https://www.trtworld.com/middle-eas...s-managed-to-free-from-israeli-jails-15967866

Israel has the dubious distinction of being the only country in the world that automatically and systematically prosecutes children in military courts that lack fundamental fair trial rights and protections. Israel prosecutes between 500 and 700 Palestinian children in military courts each year.

Since 2000, Israeli military authorities have detained, interrogated, prosecuted, and imprisoned approximately 13,000 Palestinian children, according to estimates by DCIP.

Ill-treatment in the Israeli military detention system remains “widespread, systematic, and institutionalized throughout the process,” according to the UN Children’s Fund (UNICEF) report Children in Israeli Military Detention Observations and Recommendations.

https://www.dci-palestine.org/military_detention

With regards to treatment of Palestinian child detainees.

Save the Children’s consultation showed that:

81% endured physical beatings and 89% suffered verbal abuse.
52% were threatened with harm to their families.
86% were subjected to strip searches, leaving them humiliated and ashamed.
88% did not receive adequate and timely healthcare, even when explicitly requested.
Almost half (47%) were denied contact with a lawyer.

https://www.savethechildren.org.uk/...ls----palestinian-children-suffer-inhumane-tr

ETA she was arrested in East Jerusalem not the West Bank. My error.

 

[Planigale]

See: Samir Kuntar

Israel has been known to agree with paying the asking price for return of cadavers.

We want to see the remains of Oren Shaul and Hadar Goldin. That matter first.
The HAMAS says 'all prisoners' and I would be willing to bet Israel counters with a number in the 5,000 range. (Plus all the Palestinian bodies IDF has collected while plowing along since 10-7 and including 10-7) and the Red Cross can get more deeply involved, thanks so much.

Red Cross was promised access. C'mon, let's demand they fulfill that mandate.
The ICRC should be good for something, this is their big chance to shine.

Your indignation would appear more sincere if you also argued that Israel should return the bodies of the 17 Palestinian children killed by the IDF they have 'confiscated'. That is just the children, there are many more adults bodies confiscated by Israel. Over 250 bodies are retained in secret by Israel.

Israeli forces have withheld the bodies of at least 20 Palestinian children since June 2016, according to documentation collected by DCIP. Three of the children’s bodies have since been released to their families, while 17 Palestinian children’s bodies remain withheld by Israeli authorities.

Israeli authorities’ practice of confiscating and withholding Palestinian bodies is a violation of international humanitarian law and international human rights law, which include absolute prohibitions on cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment, as well as stipulate that parties of an armed conflict must bury the deceased in an honorable way. For families, the practice amounts to collective punishment in violation of international humanitarian law.

https://www.dci-palestine.org/israeli_forces_shoot_kill_two_palestinian_boys_in_nablus_and_jerusalem

https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/mourning-missing-israels-cemeteries-numbers

 

[Planigale]

What inaccurate information and false claims? Who built the tunnels has absolutely nothing to do with any meaningful question here. I don't know whether or not it was common knowledge that the tunnels were build as part of the hospital, but I also don't care, because the hospital having had tunnels already in place doesn't in any way excuse Hamas from running a military base there. I don't see why you think Israel having built a basement to a hospital is in any way bad.

Any evidence for this? IDF intelligence seems dubious, the sophisticated command centre they claimed was present wasn't. There was certainly no nissile manufacturing or firing facillities. There is no evidence for command and control other than a single telephone.

 

[lionking]

]

Israel has taken hostages since 7/10, nearly three thousand. Palestinians legally present in Israel had their work permits / residency withdrawn became illegal and were arrested under military authority. This is illegal under international law. There is no suggestions any of the three thousand detained committed any crimes. Those held under military detention have minimal legal rights, they are deprived of a right to court review and medical care. The conditions of detention are deliberately punitive. Under interrogation they can be threatened with physical harm and their famillies can be threatened. They can be physically stressed and for women this can include sexual touching, including deprivation of sleep sensory deprivation and stress positions to cause pain. If interrogators feel there is a time sensitive issue e.g. knowing something about the hostages detainees can be subject to moderate physical pressure including beatings, electric shocks to genitals, rape, removing finger nails. Confessions obtained under duress are then presented in military courts and used to convict Palestinian detainees.

International law is clear civilians should be sunject to civil authorities and not military authorities, and should be tried in civilian courts not military courts. So all these detainees are illegally detained under international law. It is hard to find a better explanation than them being taken as hostages.

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/n...an-detainees-amid-spike-in-arbitrary-arrests/

https://www.btselem.org/administrative_detention

https://euromedmonitor.org/en/artic...estinians-are-taking-place-in-Israeli-prisons

https://www.ohchr.org/sites/default...rsions/A_HRC_53_59_AdvanceUneditedVersion.pdf

Firstly, show me this international law. Secondly, show me any nation that holds that “international law” has precedence over national law.

 

[Planigale]

]

Firstly, show me this international law. Secondly, show me any nation that holds that “international law” has precedence over national law.

First

Universal Declaration of Human Rights (UDHR)[1] and the United Nations (UN) International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (ICCPR)

For a detailed explanation see here.
https://www.ohchr.org/sites/default...rsions/A_HRC_53_59_AdvanceUneditedVersion.pdf

For a less detailed explanation see here.
https://www.lrwc.org/right-to-trial...ermine-the-rights-of-civilians-working-paper/

An ECHR ruling
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...usg=AOvVaw3m3mio25mS4lyzNhQiRkFg&opi=89978449



Second; all those countries in Europe subject to ECJ and ECHR.

https://www.ejiltalk.org/the-supremacy-of-international-law-part-one/

 

[lionking]

First

Universal Declaration of Human Rights (UDHR)[1] and the United Nations (UN) International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (ICCPR)

For a detailed explanation see here.
https://www.ohchr.org/sites/default...rsions/A_HRC_53_59_AdvanceUneditedVersion.pdf

For a less detailed explanation see here.
https://www.lrwc.org/right-to-trial...ermine-the-rights-of-civilians-working-paper/

An ECHR ruling
file:///C:/Users/cottoma874/Downloads/Judgment%20Mustafa%20v.%20Bulgaria%20-%20a%20civilian%20tried%20by%20military%20courts%20for%20an%20ordinary%20criminal%20offence.pdf



Second; all those countries in Europe subject to ECJ and ECHR.

https://www.ejiltalk.org/the-supremacy-of-international-law-part-one/

Just as I thought. Not laws at all, just declarations of the majority antisemitic UN.

 

[Planigale]

Just as I thought. Not laws at all, just declarations of the majority antisemitic UN.

Yet Israel is a signatory of the Universal Delaration of Human Rights and International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights. So Israel agreed to abide by these, along with International Convention on the Rights of the Child and Geneva Conventions. More to the point Palestine also is so, Palestinians within the West Bank and Gaza are entitled to these rights.

Are you arguing that Israelis aren't entitled to these rights?