General Israel/Palestine discussion thread - Part 4

[JoeMorgue]

Yes Israel signed those agreements.

Signing an agreement is not giving permission to let it be used as a suicide pact.

No country is ever obligated to let itself be Literal Genied into having its hands tied while it is destroyed.

 

[Planigale]

Meanwhile in the West Bank 55 Palestinian children have been killed by the IDF since 07/10, out of a total of 209 palestinians killed by IDF and settlers since 07/10. So the highly trained IDF which avoids targetting civilians has managed to kill 25% children. Though this is better than in Gaza where 40% of those killed by the IDF are children. Nearly 1% of Gazan children have been killed by the IDF, 2% have been killed or seriously injured.. Palestinian terrorists during the mayhem and deliberate targetting of civilians only manged to kill 3% children. (Some of the children were undoubtedly killed by IDF in fighting the terrorists but moral and legal responsibility for the deaths lies with Hamas.)

The most recent death is a ten year old shot in the chest by the IDF.
https://www.dci-palestine.org/israeli_forces_shoot_dead_10_year_old_palestinian_boy_near_nablus

 

[JoeMorgue]

Because Israel doesn't hide behind children. Because Israel acts like an (ill behaved but still) army and not a terrorist group.

This is zero percent complicated.

"This side that hiding in the civilian population has more collateral damage." Yes this is quite the conundrum.

"Well then Israel should just do nothing and let itself be wiped off the map because it can't fight back without collateral damage" is a child's understanding of what a "good" solution is.

 

[webfusion]

Why are Palestinian parents sending their kids into the front lines of confronting IDF?

I looked at this statement --- "out of a total of 209 palestinians killed by IDF..." and wondered, how many of those killed were combatants? Can anyone here please reveal that information?

 

[JoeMorgue]

That information isn't available and that's the whole point.

Hamas/Palestine is demanding to be held to the standards of an actual separate uniformed army that is distinctly separate from the civilian population they are supposed to be protecting while not acting like one.

Not as many Jewish children are dying because Israel doesn't have children running out it's command bunkers because it doesn't put its command bunkers in hospitals.

Again this is exactly zero percent complicated.

 

[Nessie]

What inaccurate information and false claims? Who built the tunnels has absolutely nothing to do with any meaningful question here. I don't know whether or not it was common knowledge that the tunnels were build as part of the hospital, but I also don't care, because the hospital having had tunnels already in place doesn't in any way excuse Hamas from running a military base there. I don't see why you think Israel having built a basement to a hospital is in any way bad.

Inaccurate claims that Hamas beheaded babies and had dug the tunnels under the hospital.

I don't see why any Israeli, or supporter, feels the need to lie about what Hamas have done. They have done enough to be condemned as an evil terrorist organisation without the lies. The lies just result in mistrust of Israel.

 

[JoeMorgue]

hey have done enough to be condemned as an evil terrorist organisation without the lies.

APPARENTLY not since "LOL people they just murdered they babies they didn't behead them stop being so dramatic" is a point people keep thinking doesn't make them sound daft.

If Hamas has done enough to be condemned as an evil terrorist group it is the most loved evil terrorist group in a while.

 

[Nessie]

Israel has taken hostages since 7/10, nearly three thousand. Palestinians legally present in Israel had their work permits / residency withdrawn became illegal and were arrested under military authority. This is illegal under international law. There is no suggestions any of the three thousand detained committed any crimes. Those held under military detention have minimal legal rights, they are deprived of a right to court review and medical care. The conditions of detention are deliberately punitive. Under interrogation they can be threatened with physical harm and their famillies can be threatened. They can be physically stressed and for women this can include sexual touching, including deprivation of sleep sensory deprivation and stress positions to cause pain. If interrogators feel there is a time sensitive issue e.g. knowing something about the hostages detainees can be subject to moderate physical pressure including beatings, electric shocks to genitals, rape, removing finger nails. Confessions obtained under duress are then presented in military courts and used to convict Palestinian detainees.

International law is clear civilians should be sunject to civil authorities and not military authorities, and should be tried in civilian courts not military courts. So all these detainees are illegally detained under international law. It is hard to find a better explanation than them being taken as hostages.

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/n...an-detainees-amid-spike-in-arbitrary-arrests/

https://www.btselem.org/administrative_detention

https://euromedmonitor.org/en/artic...estinians-are-taking-place-in-Israeli-prisons

https://www.ohchr.org/sites/default...rsions/A_HRC_53_59_AdvanceUneditedVersion.pdf

If anything, that makes Hamas's use of hostage taking justified. It is done to get illegally detained Palestinians freedom.

 

[Nessie]

APPARENTLY not since "LOL people they just murdered they babies they didn't behead them stop being so dramatic" is a point people keep thinking doesn't make them sound daft.

If Hamas has done enough to be condemned as an evil terrorist group it is the most loved evil terrorist group in a while.

Hamas have gained support due to the destruction rained down on Gazan civilians by Israel. It used to puzzle many British people that the IRA/Sinn Fein had a lot of support in the USA. How can people support terrorists???

 

[Planigale]

Yes Israel signed those agreements.

Signing an agreement is not giving permission to let it be used as a suicide pact.

No country is ever obligated to let itself be Literal Genied into having its hands tied while it is destroyed.

I don't think that Israel is at risk of being destroyed.

Perhaps the denial of rights is the driver to violence; that recognising the rights of Palestinians to be treated as Humans is in the best interests of Israel. Why not return the bodies of dead children to their parents? Why not try Palestinian civilians in civilian courts with access to lawyers? Why not imprison children in youth facillity with access to education. Why not take action against Jewish terrorists.

 

[Planigale]

Why are Palestinian parents sending their kids into the front lines of confronting IDF?

I looked at this statement --- "out of a total of 209 palestinians killed by IDF..." and wondered, how many of those killed were combatants? Can anyone here please reveal that information?

What is a combatant? many of those killed were at home when struck by a drone or missile or on a raid. They weren't confronting the IDF. Assassination is a skill Shin Bet are proud of.

 

[webfusion]

Nessie, darling, Hamas beheaded some of their victims.
That is accurate information.

Colonel Golan Vach, head of the military search and rescue service, told AFP he saw the body of a mother protecting a baby while searching debris at the Beeri kibbutz three days after the attacks.
"When I pulled it over I saw a decapitated baby. I took it up with my hands and I carried it, and I put it in the body bag. I personally did it," he said.

If Hamas has done enough to be condemned as an evil terrorist group it is the most loved evil terrorist group in a while.

Proven daily on the streets of major cities worldwide.
"CeasefireNow" has been replaced instantly with "StopArms to Israel" and other maximalist demands. As soon as one demand is satisfied, another will pop up.

 

[Planigale]

Why are Palestinian parents sending their kids into the front lines of confronting IDF?

I looked at this statement --- "out of a total of 209 palestinians killed by IDF..." and wondered, how many of those killed were combatants? Can anyone here please reveal that information?

Are children throwing stones combatants?

 

[webfusion]

What is a combatant? Many of those killed were at home when struck by a drone or missile or on a raid. They weren't confronting the IDF. Assassination is a skill Shin Bet are proud of.

A 'combatant' is an individual who engages in efforts to injure, kill, or otherwise engage in attacking armed troops. Many young Palestinians do so. Even 10-14 year olds.

Again, I ask a basic question --"How many jihadist guys are dead (among the now-211 fatalities)?"

 

[JoeMorgue]

Are children throwing stones combatants?

Are people at a music festival?

Oh right that doesn't count because Hamas it the widdle guy and Israel is the evil big colonizer.

 

[JoeMorgue]

I don't think that Israel is at risk of being destroyed.

Then you are in denial to the point of not being worth talking to.

 

[Planigale]

Nessie, darling, Hamas beheaded some of their victims.
That is accurate information.

Colonel Golan Vach, head of the military search and rescue service, told AFP he saw the body of a mother protecting a baby while searching debris at the Beeri kibbutz three days after the attacks.
"When I pulled it over I saw a decapitated baby. I took it up with my hands and I carried it, and I put it in the body bag. I personally did it," he said.

If Hamas has done enough to be condemned as an evil terrorist group it is the most loved evil terrorist group in a while.

Proven daily on the streets of major cities worldwide.
"CeasefireNow" has been replaced instantly with "StopArms to Israel" and other maximalist demands. As soon as one demand is satisfied, another will pop up.

There are reports of decapitated bodies from Gaza, does that mean that IDF is cutting the heads off Gazans? Decapitation can be the result of death by high explosive. However the child was killed either deliberately or as collateral damage Hamas is morally and legally responsible.

 

[Ziggurat]

Are children throwing stones combatants?

Thrown rocks can kill. So... yeah, sometimes they are. And a 17 year old is technically a child, but practically speaking basically indistinguishable from an adult.

 

[webfusion]

There are reports of decapitated bodies from Gaza, does that mean that IDF is cutting the heads off Gazans? Decapitation can be the result of death by high explosive. However the child was killed either deliberately or as collateral damage Hamas is morally and legally responsible.

I was only noting that the IDF reporting having found decapitated bodies is not a 'debunked lie' ---
Nessie said that the claim was 'inaccurate' and I'm pointing out that Nessie herself is inaccurate.

Beyond that, I will comment that Israel is in a very precarious position, without land bridges to the outside world. The sea-lane transit of Israeli-linked shipping is now being threatened. The airlines are avoiding flying here. Tourism (which consists of a large percentage of our GNP) is disrupted. Investors and multi-national companies are having pressures applied to them to stop providing money to Israel.

Israel is indeed not right now on the brink of destruction, but it must be acknowledged that there are many coordinated factors (beyond pure military might) which are aiming for that end to be achieved.
The risk is real.

 

[Nessie]

I was only noting that the IDF reporting having found decapitated bodies is not a 'debunked lie' ---
Nessie said that the claim was 'inaccurate' and I'm pointing out that Nessie herself is inaccurate.

Beyond that, I will comment that Israel is in a very precarious position, without land bridges to the outside world. The sea-lane transit of Israeli-linked shipping is now being threatened. The airlines are avoiding flying here. Tourism (which consists of a large percentage of our GNP) is disrupted. Investors and multi-national companies are having pressures applied to them to stop providing money to Israel.

Israel is indeed not right now on the brink of destruction, but it must be acknowledged that there are many coordinated factors (beyond pure military might) which are aiming for that end to be achieved.
The risk is real.

You have produced an unverified claim by one person, of a decapitation, that has been pointed out, could be caused by an explosion, rather than beheaded with a sharp instrument. Considering the inaccuracies of claims during the fighting, I would want more than that.

I am male and think your earlier "darling" comment, when you decided I was female, is very childish and misogynistic.