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General Israel/Palestine discussion thread - Part 4

There is a reason why the Israeli leadership is doing everything it can to prevent any investigation into Oct 7th .
 

The Silence That Meets the Rape of Palestinians
Male and female Palestinians describe brutal sexual abuse at the hands of Israel's prison guards, soldiers, settlers and interrogators.

Rape of Prisoners by guards is routine in Israeli prisons. It is supported by the Israeli government and Courts. Perpetrators are facing no consequences.
 
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I guess it is helpful to dispell any notion that Israeli contemporary society and politics isn't fundamentally supremacist and genocidal.
 
It’s odd to me that if you point out the evident supremacist psychopathy of Ben-Gvir or Smotrich, the answer will be that they are minor figures not representing any large constituency. If this is the case, the major parties should throw them out of government and prove that they won’t tolerate their bigotry.

Why is this not done?
 
Well, here is Ben-Gvir publicly posting video of himself taunting international prisoners as they get manhandled and saying he wants them in his prisons for longer.

International leaders are saying they are appalled by it and even Netanyahu is publicly rebuking him for this.

Does anyone really think Ben-Gvir would oppose the rape and torture of Palestinian prisoners as has been reported over and over again, including recently in the Kristof piece?

Again, if Ben-Gvir is so odious, why is he still in the government? Same applies to Smotrich.

Why are pro-Israeli posters here not demanding that people like that are thrown out?

 
Why are pro-Israeli posters here not demanding that people like that are thrown out?

Ooh! Pick me, pick me!

Along with the obvious reasons, I'd add that it takes focus away from the fact that Israel is committing clear acts of piracy.

But then, so does America...
 

She added: "Canada unequivocally condemns the grave mistreatment of Canadians in Israel. Those responsible for this egregious abuse must be held accountable."

A spokesperson for Germany's foreign ministry said its consular officials had met German activists on arrival in Istanbul on Thursday and reported that a number were injured.

Spanish Foreign Minister José Manuel Albares told reporters that four of the 44 Spanish activists had received medical treatment for injuries.

Organisers of the Global Sumud Flotilla also said on Friday: "At least 15 cases of sexual assaults, including rape. Shot with rubber bullets at close range. Tens of people's bones broken."
of course, mistreatment of prisoners by Israel is not only ignored, but actually celebrated, with the highest Ministers making videos of him participating in torture.
 
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It's ok, Israel says the claims are false, so mentioning them is probably antisemitic.

The irony just keeps getting thicker.
 
The Confederate Lost Cause historiography, for those unfamiliar, was the systematic rewriting of the Civil War's causes and meaning developed primarily in the post-Reconstruction South. It reframed secession as being about states' rights rather than slavery, portrayed Confederate leaders as noble defenders of a legitimate cause, transformed military defeat into a kind of moral victory, and created a mythology of the antebellum South as a gracious civilisation destroyed by Northern aggression. It was enormously successful as a cultural and political project - Confederate monuments, the rehabilitation of Lee and Jackson, Birth of a Nation, Gone with the Wind - and it shaped American understanding of the Civil War for generations in ways that required enormous subsequent effort to partially correct.

The structural parallels with Nakba historiography as deployed in contemporary Palestinian advocacy are real and worth examining honestly.

The 1948 war - the Israeli War of Independence or the Nakba depending on your framing - was the result of the Arab states rejecting the UN partition plan and launching a military campaign to prevent Jewish statehood. The Palestinian refugee crisis was produced by that war. Some Palestinians fled in anticipation of conflict. Some were expelled by Israeli forces. Some were caught in the crossfire of a genuinely chaotic military situation. The historical record on the specific mechanisms is mixed and contested and varies significantly by location and timeframe.

The Nakba narrative as it functions in contemporary advocacy does several things to that complex history that parallel the Lost Cause methodology. It removes the Arab states' agency in initiating the conflict. It transforms the refugee crisis from a consequence of a war that Arab leaders chose to fight into an act of deliberate ethnic cleansing that exists independently of the war's context. It creates a founding mythology of pure victimhood that forecloses examination of the decisions that produced the outcome. It develops a commemorative and cultural apparatus - Nakba Day, the key as symbol, the right of return as sacred obligation - that serves present political purposes rather than historical understanding. And it treats any examination of the complexity as inherently hostile - as denial, as racism, as Zionism - in the same way that Lost Cause defenders treated examination of slavery's role in secession as an attack on Southern honour.

The Lost Cause parallel doesn't mean Palestinian suffering in 1948 wasn't real. It was. People lost homes, villages, livelihoods, connections to land. That loss was genuine and the human dimension of it deserves acknowledgment.
But the Lost Cause parallel also doesn't mean the Confederacy's cause was just simply because Confederates suffered in the war they chose to fight. The suffering and the justice of the cause are separate questions that the mythology systematically conflates.

What the Nakba-as-Lost-Cause framing identifies is the way a genuine historical event involving real loss has been shaped into a political mythology that serves specific present purposes - particularly the delegitimisation of Israel's existence and the maintenance of the right of return claim - in ways that require systematic distortion of the historical record, removal of Arab agency from the narrative, and aggressive suppression of alternative framings through accusations of racism and denial.

Making that point, will produce exactly the response I've stated before. The accusation substituting for the argument. The framework immunising itself against examination.

But the parallel holds analytically and it's the kind of observation that only becomes sayable when you're willing to follow the evidence where it leads rather than stopping when it becomes uncomfortable.
 
That is ... nonsense.
The North didn't turn the US into an anti-South Apartheid State. And there was no slavery in Palestine Israel freed the people from - it just killed a lot of people and stole their property and land.

of course, you can reframe history all you like, it doesn't change the fact that, now, today, Israel is claiming 70-100% of Gaza and the West Bank as its territory, as Netanyahu has done.
It doesn't change the fact that Israel has committed a genocide and killed tens of thousands of kids.

What is your narrative on Settlers terrorizing and occupying the West Bank? Los Alamos?
 
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That is ... nonsense.
The North didn't turn the US into an anti-South Apartheid State. And there was no slavery in Palestine Israel freed the people from - it just killed a lot of people and stole their property and land.

of course, you can reframe history all you like, it doesn't change the fact that, now, today, Israel is claiming 70-100% of Gaza and the West Bank as its territory, as Netanyahu has done.
It doesn't change the fact that Israel has committed a genocide and killed tens of thousands of kids.

What is your narrative on Settlers terrorizing and occupying the West Bank? Los Alamos?
Read up on Dhimmi status.

Then remember the incredible stupidity of starting a murderous war against Jews just two years after Auschwitz was reached.

Anything from ppl like Chomsky (who has got what he needed to) or Walid and Rashid Kalidhi is about as credible as Piltdown Man.
 
Israeli Prime Minister David Ben-Gurion (centre), wearing a keffiyeh (Hebrew: kafya) around his neck, in the Negev during the War of Independence. To the right is Yigal Allon. Visible between them is the young Yitzhak Rabin. There are many photos of pre-state Jews wearing kafyot. It was not until Yasser Arafat popularised it in the 1970s that the keffiyeh became a specifically Palestinian symbol.

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Read up on Dhimmi status.

Then remember the incredible stupidity of starting a murderous war against Jews just two years after Auschwitz was reached.

Anything from ppl like Chomsky (who has got what he needed to) or Walid and Rashid Kalidhi is about as credible as Piltdown Man.
What do you mean "The Jews"?
Was it directed against the people taking land without consent of the local population, or against every member of a religion everywhere in the world?

I consider it straight up antisemitism to equate the State of Israel and its predecessor as a stand-in for all Jews worldwide.
The fact that only a small fraction of American Jews have moved to Israel tells you what they think about the idea.
 

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