Merged General Israel/Palestine discussion thread - Part 2

[Ambrosia]

And there's been a lot of fun in the UK with Labour no confronting Anti-semitism.

What the "anti-zionism is not anti-semitism" argument doesn't take into account is that "Zionist" carries a LOT of baggage, considering that it has been a dog-whistle for racists and neo-nazis for decades.

It's all semantics.

Anti-zionism and anti-semitism are 2 different things, but context is everything and different people interpret those terms differently, some people conflate the two.

I'm still unsure why exactly Jews are so special that they get their own special word for 'racism', when that is all that it is.

There is also a special word for 'radical Jews' - "Zionists". I view Zionists as the Jewish equivalent of radical Muslims (see ISIS)

Racism is abhorrent and should not be tolerated in any form. Just as we should not tolerate racism, we shouldn't tolerate radicals, of any religion.

All that being said there is plenty that Israel can and should be criticised for.

The whole Ken Livingstone thing has been blown up out of proportion imo and lots of people are using the whole thing as a means to score political points. Corbyn is damned if he does and damned if he doesn't, Livingstone is an idiot who should engage brain before opening mouth (again)

 

[Jules Galen]

The Palestinians were dealt a very bad hand from the start. As Sunnis in the Ottoman Empire they were always of the favoured class so lacked the kind of solidarity that minorities - such as Lebanon's Shias or the Kurds in an Arab world - develop to survive. They were unready for adversity and got bulldozed before they could learn from the experience. They're used to it now, but it's far too late.

They gave up on that a long time ago, when they signed up to a two-state solution. With that they accepted defeat in the war over the Jewish State - their war-aim was to prevent it and they failed. Forget the Arabs : they're otherwise engaged. The problem for smart Israel is coming from dumb Israel, which makes a virtue of intolerance and is expanding at a remarkable pace. It's the constituency which Netenyahu depends on and will only encourage further.

Women being asked to move seats on El Al flights because an Orthodox zealot thinks it offensive to be sat next to one is just a straw in the wind. It's only going to get worse.

A noteable feature of the Middle East in the last ten years or so is the absence of Israel/Palestine in events. It's become entirely stand-alone. Nobody ever cared enough about the Palestinians to really commit - people sympathised, yes, but come on, not really their problem, of which they have enough already - and Israel's shrieks of "Iranian Nukes!" are getting way too old.

Israel won't negotiate, it wll simply carry on with the current process because it can see no other path. It can't surrender any part of it's Sacred National Territory by ceding it to Palestinian occupation, but it can't see a practical way to get rid of the Palestinians that wouldn't turn even Mycroft's stomach.

Thus the process becomes the only reality. The situation will never be normalised because it never could have been. Meanwhile weirdo Israeli Jews are breeding way faster than normal Israeli Jews, and have been doing so for two or three generations (remember, marry young).

Trust me, things are going to go pear-shaped before too long. Maybe not this year, maybe not next, but one day ...

I know there are pals who don't like the two-state solution...but too bad. I don't think Israel is going anywhere and I believe the Israelis who were born in Israel certainly have a right to an Israel just as Palestinians have a right to a Palestine. Whether the Palestinians like it or not, Israel has become a "Fact n the Ground" so-to-speak in the eyes of the world and their citizens and this has been so for at least 70 years. So every time I hear rhetoric about getting rid of Israel, I just roll my eyes. I mean, it could certainly happen one day, I just don't see it happening within my life time, or even 2 score years more than that.

And...why would anyone want too...get rid of Israel, I mean? As long as the Palestinians can have a viable state, then that should be enough for them, and the fantasy of getting rid of Israel should remain just that...the fantasy of an delusional and infantalized mind.

Unfortunately, there are those Pals out there who carry that dream....and they defeat themselves with every move they make because the same mentality that's responsible for that "Dream" is the same mentality that stops them from doing something rational to get a viable state. Watching them, it seems like they think that if Israel were gone, somehow all their problems would be solved. That just isn't so.

 

[Aridas]

Actually, I would classify it somewhere between "amused" and "LMAO"....

Gleeful

1. full of exultant joy; merry; delighted.

Seems to fit just fine. *shrug*

and I'll tell you why.

For years, the Palestinians have been trying to go heads-up with the IDF and have been getting their arses handed to them every single time. I once tried to tell a Palestinian that such fighting - meeting Israel on a battlefield - was hopeless and futile for the Palestinians. But...he disagreed - probably thought Alllah would give them victory sooner, or later. Man...it's hard to believe that some Palestinians are still this deluded, but it's true.

...It's honestly not hard at all to believe, given the actual behavior that many of them display? There's always the alternative option, of course, that one of the kids in the video Ziggurat linked suggested, though, which was that they'll keep making war until they all get martyred.

Either way, chances are still probably decent that Israel will face Hezbollah again in the future and we'd see whether your gleeful thoughts reflect reality or not. Given that I'm not actually rooting for either side, really, I have no real preference on an outcome beforehand, though I likely would depending on the specific circumstances involved. As far as it goes, my preference would simply be that it doesn't happen in the first place, though.

 

[NWO Sentryman]

It's all semantics.

Anti-zionism and anti-semitism are 2 different things, but context is everything and different people interpret those terms differently, some people conflate the two.

I'm still unsure why exactly Jews are so special that they get their own special word for 'racism', when that is all that it is.

There is also a special word for 'radical Jews' - "Zionists". I view Zionists as the Jewish equivalent of radical Muslims (see ISIS)

Racism is abhorrent and should not be tolerated in any form. Just as we should not tolerate racism, we shouldn't tolerate radicals, of any religion.

All that being said there is plenty that Israel can and should be criticised for.

The whole Ken Livingstone thing has been blown up out of proportion imo and lots of people are using the whole thing as a means to score political points. Corbyn is damned if he does and damned if he doesn't, Livingstone is an idiot who should engage brain before opening mouth (again)

1. is Rense "anti-semitic" or "Anti-zionist", as they claim to be, when they discuss "ZOG" or "Zionist Media Control"?

2. Fun Fact: Anti-semitism was coined by a 19th century bigot to make hating jews sound more "scientific". And we know how Jews ended up in the age of Eugenics

3. I really don't see how Israel is in any way comparable to Da'esh. And they're a damned sight better than Bashir "I use Nerve Gas on my own people" al assad or Saddam "my son gets his jollies from feeding people into woodchippers" hussein.

4. "We can't trust anybody to treat us well as a minority so we should form our own nation" is hardly the same as "Let's bring about the end times and I hope we obtain smallpox to that end"

5. Nobody is disputing that. However, when people use "Zionist" as a cover for racist and bigoted views, that tends to raise eyebrows

 

[Jules Galen]

Either way, chances are still probably decent that Israel will face Hezbollah again in the future and we'd see whether your gleeful thoughts reflect reality or not. Given that I'm not actually rooting for either side, really, I have no real preference on an outcome beforehand, though I likely would depending on the specific circumstances involved. As far as it goes, my preference would simply be that it doesn't happen in the first place, though.

Well...me too. However, Israel is hellbent on making it happen. Every chance they get, they bomb Hezbollah and scream "Terrorists"! It's getting old.

What I think that Israel can't stand -just can't tolerate - is the fact that they may one day have to sit down with Hezbollah and talk as fellow human beings. This somehow frightens them. But...until Israel realizes that they are not going to make Hezbollah go away by force - nor are they going to keep Hezbollah from growing in strength, then the same old deadly stupidity will keep on happening. And...who knows...maybe a full-scale war will break out in the interim.

 

[applecorped]

Those Jooos sure are smart.

 

[Ziggurat]

What I think that Israel can't stand -just can't tolerate - is the fact that they may one day have to sit down with Hezbollah and talk as fellow human beings.

Yeah, no. What exactly do you imagine Hezbollah would ever be satisfied with? Nothing, short of Israel's destruction. There is ultimately nothing to talk about.

 

[Jules Galen]

Yeah, no. What exactly do you imagine Hezbollah would ever be satisfied with? Nothing, short of Israel's destruction. There is ultimately nothing to talk about.

That's a bit fatalistic don't you think?

Hezbollah isn't going away, they are getting more popular, and they are getting militarily stronger every year despite how much Israel bombs them. So...why not start talking to these people while Israel is so much stronger? Talk does not cost anything, and it shows good will - and it could go a long way to diffusing the situation on their Northern Border.

 

[Ziggurat]

That's a bit fatalistic don't you think?

Fatalistic or not, I think it's true, and you have presented no reason to think otherwise.

Hezbollah isn't going away, they are getting more popular, and they are getting militarily stronger every year despite how much Israel bombs them. So...why not start talking to these people while Israel is so much stronger?

Talk to them about what? There is nothing to talk about. Hezbollah wants Israel destroyed. Israel doesn't want to be destroyed. These are fundamentally incompatible objectives, and talking cannot reconcile them.

Talk does not cost anything, and it shows good will

Hezbollah doesn't want Israel's good will.

 

[Jules Galen]

Fatalistic or not, I think it's true, and you have presented no reason to think otherwise.

Well...then talk to them and find a reason to believe otherwise....for the warring sure isn't helping Israel, is it?

I mean, today Nasrallah is a free man, while Ohlmert is in Prison and the military adminstration that waged the 2006 Lebanon War has been trashed. Does this look like Israeli Strength...insofar in that such inner turmoil is sustainable? As a result, even BiBi who was a raving lunatic about bombing Iran before he was elected Prime Minister has been reduced to begging the US to do it for him! BiBi is rightfully afraid of the political fallout that would happen from a war with Iran.

And every year Hezbollah grows stronger - now they are getting together a credible Surface-to-Air Defense System. I mean...c'mon, when does Israel see the light? Hezbollah has already neutralized their tanks and attack helicopters, and rendered close-air-support untenable....is Israel waiting for Hezbollah to neutralize the rest of their airpower, too?

And...did ya' notice how bad the press got for Israel during the 2006 War? I mean, a lot of what the world saw was video of Israel's flattening of Lebanese Villages - Peasant Stomping. This did not help Israel at all in the eyes of the world - these images of terrified peasants streaming northward to avoid the aerial bombardment that flattened their villages. (which Israel claimed these villages were Hezbollah Strongholds, but produced no Hezbollah to show that this was actually the case) So...Israel was then accused of using "Disproportionate Force". Jeez...Hezbollah even has the fricken' media under control!

So...really, why wait to talk? Why not start talking more and bombing less...for the bombing is only making things worse. Every time Israel bombs Hezbollah it just strengthens their resolve - and it does nothing tangible to weaken them militarily. And the Lebanese won't forget that Israel bombed Hezbollah while Hezbollah was protecting the Lebanese from ISIS. So all this Israeli Bombing of Hezbollah also makes them politically stronger within Lebanon.

 

[Ziggurat]

Well...then talk to them and find a reason to believe otherwise

Why should I look for a reason to believe something isn't true?

I mean, today Nasrallah is a free man, while Ohlmert is in Prison and the military adminstration that waged the 2006 Lebanon War has been trashed. Does this look like Israeli Strength

Are you now trying to make a might makes right argument?

And every year Hezbollah grows stronger

So why the hell would Hezbollah be interested in negotiating with Israel if they stand to benefit by not doing so?

Your position isn't even internally consistent.

And...did ya' notice how bad the press got for Israel during the 2006 War?

Indeed, I remember it. Including the faked Reuters photos.

So...really, why wait to talk?

Again: about what? You STILL can't answer that question.

 

[Jules Galen]

Why should I look for a reason to believe something isn't true?



Are you now trying to make a might makes right argument?

So why the hell would Hezbollah be interested in negotiating with Israel if they stand to benefit by not doing so?

Your position isn't even internally consistent.

Indeed, I remember it. Including the faked Reuters photos.

Again: about what? You STILL can't answer that question.

Jesus H Christ. If this is Israel sentiment, then Israel is as bad off as those Palestinian Jihadist whackos who preach the destruction of Israel at all costs.

I mean...you just told me that all talking is pointless. So...just nothing left to do but bomb, then? What....Everlasting War is now the norm?

That's the policy of a failed state.

 

[Ziggurat]

Jesus H Christ. If this is Israel sentiment, then Israel is as bad off as those Palestinian Jihadist whackos who preach the destruction of Israel at all costs.

I mean...you just told me that all talking is pointless.

I told you nothing of the sort. When there is something to talk about, talking can be quite productive. But you can't even tell me what there is to talk about. I've asked you multiple times now, and you refuse to answer. You say that they should talk, but you can't say what they should talk about. Do you not see the problem with that?

 

[Jules Galen]

I told you nothing of the sort. When there is something to talk about, talking can be quite productive. But you can't even tell me what there is to talk about. I've asked you multiple times now, and you refuse to answer. You say that they should talk, but you can't say what they should talk about. Do you not see the problem with that?

Well....how about negotiating the rules of Border Conduct with Hezbollah so that hostilities along the border can be minimized....that's always a good place to start? Also, give Hezbollah some assurances that they'll not be bombed just because they are installing defensive missile systems - which is anybody's right. Etc...Etc.. I'm sure there are a lot of people in Israel who know what they want to talk about.

There is always something to talk about if people really want to talk. This attitude of "There is nothing to talk" about is just BS!

Nevertheless, you're telling me that only war matters.

 

[Ziggurat]

Well....how about negotiating the rules of Border Conduct with Hezbollah so that hostilities along the border can be minimized....that's always a good place to start?

Hezbollah doesn't want to minimize hostilities. They want to engage in hostilities whenever it suits them.

Also, give Hezbollah some assurances that they'll not be bombed just because they are installing defensive missile systems - which is anybody's right.

Hezbollah's missile installations are primarily not even capable of defensive use. And no, it's NOT their right: Hezbollah is not a sovereign government, and they are in violation of UN Security Council resolutions. The fact that neither the UN nor the Lebanese government have the will to enforce the disarmament of Hezbollah doesn't mean that Hezbollah has the right to missiles, it merely means that they're getting away with it.

Nevertheless, you're telling me that only war matters.

No, I'm telling you that's all Hezbollah is interested in.

 

[Jules Galen]

Hezbollah doesn't want to minimize hostilities. They want to engage in hostilities whenever it suits them.

Hezbollah's missile installations are primarily not even capable of defensive use. And no, it's NOT their right: Hezbollah is not a sovereign government, and they are in violation of UN Security Council resolutions. The fact that neither the UN nor the Lebanese government have the will to enforce the disarmament of Hezbollah doesn't mean that Hezbollah has the right to missiles, it merely means that they're getting away with it.
No, I'm telling you that's all Hezbollah is interested in.

So what? Hezbollah is a fact. And is the UN and Lebanon hasn't displayed the will to disarm Hezbollah, then neither has Israel.

So, Hezbollah is a fact that is not going away.

Anyways...you're starting to sound like one of those Palestinian Jihadi Fools who refuses to accept the reality that Israel is a Fact regardless of whatever Rights to the Land he thinks he has been bestowed by some mystic SkyDaddy. And, if you believe that the Land was somehow a Jewish Right given by the SkyDaddy...then you are certainly deluded.

 

[Border Reiver]

So what? Hezbollah is a fact. And is the UN and Lebanon hasn't displayed the will to disarm Hezbollah, then neither has Israel.



So, Hezbollah is a fact that is not going away.



Anyways...you're starting to sound like one of those Palestinian Jihadi Fools who refuses to accept the reality that Israel is a Fact regardless of whatever Rights to the Land he thinks he has been bestowed by some mystic SkyDaddy. And, if you believe that the Land was somehow a Jewish Right given by the SkyDaddy...then you are certainly deluded.

Jules, you are ignoring that for talks to be successful both parties have to be willing to talk. Israel has shown that it has been willing to talk with Palestinian factions (those ones prepared to acknowledge that Israel can continue to exist) and Arab states, but several Palestinian factions such as Hamas and Hezbollah refuse to acknowledge that Israel has a right to exist - which rather limits the conversation.

Israel (to Hezbollah) - So, we'd like to talk about what it would take to get you to stop attacking our civilians.

Hezbollah (to Israel) - All of you Jews and the traitor Arabs living with you can die.

Israel - Any chance of compromise?

Hezbollah - Death to Israel!

Israel - Well, this has been productive...

 

[Ziggurat]

So what?

So your claim was wrong, obviously.

Hezbollah is a fact.

I never said it wasn't.

And is the UN and Lebanon hasn't displayed the will to disarm Hezbollah, then neither has Israel.

True. The difference is, it's not Israel's responsibility.

Anyways...you're starting to sound like one of those Palestinian Jihadi Fools who refuses to accept the reality that Israel is a Fact regardless of whatever Rights to the Land he thinks he has been bestowed by some mystic SkyDaddy.

You're projecting. I'm not the one descending into incoherent spittle-flecked rants. And still failing to answer the basic question: what would they talk about?

And, if you believe that the Land was somehow a Jewish Right given by the SkyDaddy...then you are certainly deluded.

Straw man.

 

[webfusion]

Correcting the record ---

QUOTE -- "The Jewish State was never conceived as anything other than a state for Jews and nobody else."


From the Declaration of Independence -
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/Dec_of_Indep.html

"THE STATE OF ISRAEL will be open for Jewish immigration and for the Ingathering of the Exiles; it will foster the development of the country for the benefit of all its inhabitants; it will be based on freedom, justice and peace as envisaged by the prophets of Israel; it will ensure complete equality of social and political rights to all its inhabitants irrespective of religion, race or sex; it will guarantee freedom of religion, conscience, language, education and culture; it will safeguard the Holy Places of all religions; and it will be faithful to the principles of the Charter of the United Nations."

THAT's what Israel is about, to this very day.

 

[Giz]

There is also a special word for 'radical Jews' - "Zionists". I view Zionists as the Jewish equivalent of radical Muslims (see ISIS)

Right. Because believing that Jews should have a small homeland of their own is equivalent to beheadings/dreams of global conquest ģ world wide terror attacks/demolishing ancient artifacts etc. Sounds like you are part of the problem in the UK.