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Merged General Holocaust denial discussion thread

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Here's an interesting question for Clayton to ponder. I imagine he'll got lost nearly immediately, but what the hell? I'd like Clayton to pose any objections to the below narrative after each paragraph.

So there were these three camps in Poland that were set up under Aktion Reinhard, which was the operation by which the General Government (occupied by unannexed Poland) was to be made "Judenrein." Now bear in mind that there were three million Jews in Poland on the eve of World War II.

Now, one of the nice things about the Nazis (among precious few) was that they were fairly meticulous record keepers. Therefore, we know how many Jews were sent to these three camps: Belzec, Sobibor, and Treblinka. According to the telegram sent by Hermann Höfle, a deputy to Odilo Globocnik, who ran Aktion Reinhard, to Adolf Eichmann at the RSHA and Franz Heim at the SS bureau of statistics. In that telegram, Höfle informs these two men that the numbers sent to Belzec, Sobibor, and Treblinka, respectively, were 434,508, 101,370, and 713,555, totaling about 1.275 million, as of December 31, 1942. Oh, and we know those numbers are accurate because Richard Korherr, an SS statistician, also reported them.

Going too fast for you?

Now: Two of these three camps had revolts. The uprising in Treblinka in August 1943 resulted in 600 escapes, but only 40 of those escapees were registered as survivors at the end of the war. The uprising at Sobibor in October resulted in 300 escapees, of whom about 60 were registered as survivors at the end of the war.

Still with me?

Here's the money shot. Belzec had no revolt. Do you know how many registered survivors?

Two.

Why do you think that is?

Let me guess: The Joos planned it all, years ahead of time, such that all those damned lyin' Joos would know to never say they'd been at Belzec?
 
Clayton Moore said:
Gas vans? Are you freaking kidding?
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After the June 1941 German invasion of the Soviet Union and Einsatzgruppe (mobile killing unit) mass shootings of civilians, the Nazis experimented with gas vans for mass killing. Gas vans were hermetically sealed trucks with engine exhaust diverted to the interior compartment. Use of gas vans began after Einsatzgruppe members complained of battle fatigue and mental anguish caused by shooting large numbers of women and children. Gassing also proved to be less costly. Einsatzgruppen (mobile killing units) gassed hundreds of thousands of people, mostly Jews, Roma (Gypsies), and mentally ill people. In 1941, the SS concluded that the deportation of Jews to extermination camps (to be gassed) was the most efficient way of achieving the "Final Solution". That same year, the Nazis opened the Chelmno camp in Poland. Jews from the Lodz area of Poland and Roma were killed there in mobile gas vans. ​
 
The key to exposing all the lies and exaggerations is that they flow from the tongues of team Holocaust unfettered by the trials and tribulations of reality. Numbers are spit out like water off a ducks back. Never any difficulty in getting things done. Easy does it. Smooth as silk.

Glitch? What would have happened if the flow of Jewish people to the "death" camps was impeded by weather? Bottlenecks and glitches.

Staging?
 
Clayton Moore said:
The key to exposing all the lies and exaggerations is that they flow from the tongues of team Holocaust unfettered by the trials and tribulations of reality. Numbers are spit out like water off a ducks back. Never any difficulty in getting things done. Easy does it. Smooth as silk.

Glitch? What would have happened if the flow of Jewish people to the "death" camps was impeded by weather? Bottlenecks and glitches.

Staging?
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...you do know what Adolf Eichmann did during the war, right?

It's called "logistics", Clayton, and it's how the Germans were able to ship anything from one place to another as part of a preplanned coordinated effort.

Or do you think all their factories and warehouses and stores were also hoaxed by the Zionspiracy and never existed?
 
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Clayton Moore said:
The key to exposing all the lies and exaggerations is that they flow from the tongues of team Holocaust unfettered by the trials and tribulations of reality. Numbers are spit out like water off a ducks back. Never any difficulty in getting things done. Easy does it. Smooth as silk.

Glitch? What would have happened if the flow of Jewish people to the "death" camps was impeded by weather? Bottlenecks and glitches.

Staging?
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Sorry Clayton your argument based personal incredulous is worse than worthless. Just because you don't know how to do something, doesn't mean others cant.

Moving this number of people around in the time frame required is childs play even under the circumstances the German rail system had to deal with in the closing year of the war.

People eat sleep and breath logistics - accept some of us know what we can do and give up on the assine approach for a while
 
Clayton Moore said:
You made me snort. Thanks.
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Lets see your resume - I have been involved in moving 3.5 million people in 16 hours using a rail system designed and built in 1926. Moving 6 million people in three years could be done during coffee breaks.
 
ANTPogo said:
...you do know what Adolf Eichmann did during the war, right?
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Clayton Moore said:
Coordinated snow storms. Sorry I forgot.
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Clayton doesn't know who Adolf Eichmann is. Let us help him by quoting Eichmann's own words about his part in the holocaust....let's see if Clayton can guess what Eichmann did concerning logistics....

"I was really a little cog in the machinery"

"I transported them to the butcher"

"Where I was implied in the physical annialation of the Jews, I admit my participation freely and without pressure"

"I carried out my orders. It would be pointless to blame me for the final solution of the Jewish problem as the official in charge of the railroads over which the Jews were transported"

Clayton will simply say "All lies" without reading anything as he is a holocaust denial cult member.

http://books.google.com.au/books?id...source=gbs_atb&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=true
 
LemmyCaution said:
There is more to it than this....
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Thankyou for the detailed response. I am sure that the Germans used very persuasive lies to encourage people to get on the trains that would take them to the camps. From a purely pragmatic viewpoint it makes sense to lie, as it would make it easier to get them on the train. I acn also imagine the soldiers could get a sick sense of satisfaction from knowing that most of the transportees would die.

CM stated that if the jews had known where they were going, they would have refused to go. My point was simply that even if they knew they were being sent to a concentration camp, most people would take the small chance they, or their children, might survive the camp rather than refuse and be shot on the spot.
 
Multivac said:
CM stated that if the jews had known where they were going, they would have refused to go. My point was simply that even if they knew they were being sent to a concentration camp, most people would take the small chance they, or their children, might survive the camp rather than refuse and be shot on the spot.
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I agree with you completely - and there are diaries of victims from that time that demonstrate time and again that people clung to the smallest shred of hope for survival. Which the Nazis played upon. My post was meant only to add in other factors that Clayton ignores.
 
Matthew Ellard said:
Clayton doesn't know who Adolf Eichmann is. Let us help him by quoting Eichmann's own words about his part in the holocaust....let's see if Clayton can guess what Eichmann did concerning logistics....

"I was really a little cog in the machinery"

"I transported them to the butcher" . . .
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To go back to gas vans, Eichmann testified a number of times about seeing these vans in operation. Here is an excerpt from his testimony during his trial:

ANSWER: I just know the following, that I only saw the following: a room, if I still recall correctly, perhaps five times as big as this one, or it may have been four times as big. There were Jews inside it, they had to get undressed and then a van, completely sealed, drew up to the ramp in front of the entrance. The naked Jews then had to get inside. Then the lorry was closed and it drove off.

QUESTION: How many people did the van hold?

ANSWER: I can't say exactly. I couldn't bring myself to look closely, even once. I didn't look inside the entire time. I couldn't, no, I couldn't take any more. The screaming and, and, I was too upset and so on. I also said that to [SS-Obergruppenfuehrer] Mueller when I submitted my report. He did not get much from my report. I then followed the van - I must have been with some of the people from there who knew the way. Then I saw the most horrifying thing I have ever seen in my entire life.

The van drove up to a long trench, the door was opened and bodies thrown out. They still seemed alive, their limbs were so supple. They were thrown in, I can still remember a civilian pulling out teeth with some pliers and then I just got the hell out of there. I got into the car, went off and did not say anything else... I'd had more than I could take. I only know that a doctor there in a white coat said to me that I should look through a peep-hole at them in the lorry. I refused to do that. I could not, I could not say anything, I had to get away.

I went to Berlin, reported to Gruppenfuehrer Mueller. I told him exactly what I've just said, there wasn't any more I could tell him... terrible...I'm telling you... the inferno, can't, that is, I can't take this, I said to him.
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Source:
Klee, E., W. Dressen, V. Riess. The Good Old Days. New York: The Free Press, 1988, p 221-222.
 
Clayton Moore said:
The key to exposing all the lies and exaggerations is that they flow from the tongues of team Holocaust unfettered by the trials and tribulations of reality. Numbers are spit out like water off a ducks back. Never any difficulty in getting things done. Easy does it. Smooth as silk.

Glitch? What would have happened if the flow of Jewish people to the "death" camps was impeded by weather? Bottlenecks and glitches.

Staging?
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Go-go Clayton handwave! Go-go Clayton incredulity! Go-go Clayton ad hominems!
 
Nick Terry said:
You have got to be kidding me. Since when do trains not run in the rain?
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Not in Claytonland, they freakin' don't. In Claytonland, rain causes iron rails to get soggy and crumble. In Claytonland, when it is cold, bullets shot from German guns freeze in mid-air and fall to the ground before reaching their targets. In Claytonland, unarmed people - beaten down by undernourishment and overwork, held captive at gunpoint - heroically resist and free every last person threatened with abuse or death, overpowering the armed guards with their bare hands. In Claytonland, it takes 100s of 1000s of these guards with guns to keep these vulnerable people captive. In Claytonland, it is simply impossible to confine some people in camps, use some people for labor, and execute other people. In Claytonland, it is also freakin' impossible to convert a regular delivery van into a vehicle in which victims can be packed and gassed to death.

Claytonland is very strange. You should visit it sometime. Going there is a very good way to escape from reality and enjoy kind of trippy fantasies and halluncinatory delusions. Really. Claytonland is quite the place.
 
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