• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Merged General Holocaust denial discussion thread

Status
Not open for further replies.
If a bruised and battered woman calls the cops and says her hubby beat her up (and after checking records you discover there have been 2 prior trips for domestic violence there)after the police arrive and ask the husband what happened and he replies "I never touched her she's lying" should he be arrested? or are you of the mindset that "oh well, the police didn't see him hit her and it's her word against his, better let him go!" Even though she is battered and bleeding?

Cuz that's your argument about the holocaust. Except that there's so much more evidence that it happened than the above husband beat his wife
 
Moss said:
I have no idea where cm gets the idea from that the Jews had any ability to counteract the German transports. What could they have done?
Click to expand...
Clayton is deeply ignorant and/or making things up. The evidence for the force used by German police and security forces in these operations is overwhelming and exists just about anywhere you want to look.

Since we've been watching Clayton blow smoke with regard to gas vans, let's take the case of Chelmno.

Nearly 70,000 Jews were taken by German forces from Lodz ghetto for gassing at Chemno. Of these, over 15,000 were transported to the deaths in early September 1942 in an action known as the "Gehsperre" (curfew) or Children and Old People's Action. Here are some details - you know, the kinds of things which Clayton is allergic to - on how the Germans conducted the roundups of the victims in Lodz ghetto:

"[T]he operation proceeded as follows--block after block was surrounded by the Jewish police and then each building surrounded by a host of police and Jewish firemen and entered by a representative of the authorities (the Gestapo). A shot was fired as the signal to assemble. . . . In the meantime, the Jewish police were searching the apartments and bringing out anyone who had been hiding or people who were ill. . . . Since this operation took place at an extremely rapid pace and wagons were constantly leaving from and arriving at the hospital, the clerical workers sent to the assembly points to make lists of the deportees were unable to list all the people brought there. . . . When the wagons were being loaded, there were incidents in which people, either because of a misunderstanding or intentionally, attempted to join the group that was remaining here; retribution was very swift in such cases (people were shot without warning), and took place right before the eyes of the assembled tenants of a building. That, however, did not prevent people from escaping from the wagons or while en route, or from being rescued from the hospital by means both legal and illegal. . . . To encourage the Jewish police and the firemen to conduct the operation conscientiously, promise that their closest relations would be spared had been made. . . . Escape attempts came to a bloody end. Anyone who attempted to save himself by fleeing and was spotted by the authorities had to pay for that attempt with his life. . . . At 38 Zgierska Street, an elederly woman from Sieradz did not understand if she had been ordered to go to the left or the right and, instead of going to a wagon, she walked over to a group of "remainers." This the authorities interpreted as an escape attempt. The woman was shot to death on the spot. At 3 Zgierska Street, Rozenblum, a 13-year-old boy, attempted to hid in a dustbin; he was seen and shot dead. There were many such victims but even more numerous were cases of people who were wounded when a crowd was fired upon. . . ." [Lodz Chronicle]

"Everybody is convinced that the Jews who are deported are taken to destruction. . . . 

People ran here and there, crazed by the desire to hide the beloved victims. But nobody knew who would direct the Aktion: the Jewish Police, the Gestapo in the ghetto, or a mobile unit of the SS. The President, in coordination with the German authorities (Biebow) decided in his area of responsibility to carry out the deportation [with his own forces]. It was the Jewish Police that had to tear the children from the mothers, to take the parents from their children. . . . It was to be expected that parents and relatives would try in this situation to make changes and corrections in registered ages. Errors and inaccuracies that had not been corrected up to now did exist. Something that gives you the right to live today may well decide your fate tomorrow. There was a tendency to raise the age of the children, because a child from the age of 10 up could go to work and so be entitled to a portion of soup. Other parents lowered the age, because a younger child had a prospect of getting milk. Yesterday the milk and the soup were the most important things, today there is literally a question of staying alive. The age of the old people also moved up and down for various reasons. . . . 

On Saturday the Gestapo already began on the operation [deportation], without paying any attention to the feverish work of registration that had been going on at No. 4 Church Square. Everyone had supposed that the Order Police [Jewish Police] would not stand the test. It could not itself carry out the work of the hangmen. . . ." [Oscar Singer]

"The hunger and constant fear of being caught drove many Jews to turn themselves in for deportation. They thought that it could not be worse than it was in the ghetto. Many were soothed since the deportations summonses indicated that, in contrast to the prior deportations, people were traveling for work." [Lodz Chronicle]

"Rumkowski . . . attempted to trick [deportees] with 'concessions' and rewards. First, whole families could travel together . . . Second, those reporting voluntarily would receive a set of clothing, shoes, and underwear and be able to take along 15 kilos of baggage. They would be permitted to write letters, and, finally, they would be able to pick up their food allotments without waiting in line. . . . Rumkowski also saw to it that the candidates for Chelmno or Auschwitz should be able to sell their last few possessions to his purchase points at prices determined by expert appraisers. . . . In order to reinforce the illusion that they were going to work, Biebow directed the Central Purchasing Office to pay for the household goods sold in German marks 'so that the money can be used in the German cities where they are going' . . ." [Isaiah Trunk in his study of Lodz]

"Not only the ill were hauled away to unknown destination for unknown purposes. Children at the Institute of Preventive Medicine and all prisoners in the central lockup were also removed. . . . In the meantime, the Jewish police move from house to house and gather up the ill who miraculously slipped out of the hospitals yesterday. . . . 'Will it end with that?' -- Jews from neighboring towns who had recently reached the ghetto laughed bitterly at the naivete of that question. They have already experienced this. They know, but refrain from saying, that things began this way in all the neighboring towns. First they marked the victims, then they took the patients from the hospitals, afterwards they made off with children and the elderly. Only at the end did they reduce everyone else to dust and ashes -- by deportation, execution by gunfire, or dispersion to the seven seas, separating wives from husbands, husbands from wives, children from parents, and parents from children. They were murdered in bizarre ways, as if one form of death were not enough for the worn-out, tortured Jewish population. How well they knew the formula, these Jews from the outlying towns! The tragedy was staged the same way everywhere. . . ." [Josef Zelkowicz]

Roundups by force and intimidation also occurred in small towns in the Warthegau. To take but one example, described by Oskar Rosenfeld in his Notebook E: In Brzeziny, on 15 May 1942 Jewish policemen delivered mothers and their children to the Gestapo, who separated out the children (“beating with whips”) and threw them onto trucks for dispatch along with some infirm elderly Jews. The victims were sent by truck and car to Galkuwek where they were beaten bloody and “thrown into the railway car”; from there, historians have them shipped to Chelmno and gassed there. Two days later, according to Rosenfeld, “all Jews” of Brzeziny were assembled on the town’s market square; about 1,500 turned out and were separated into women, children, and men. These groups were moved by wagon to Galkuwek: “Here in Galkuwek they were all, in the same groups, chased onto the train with their baggage, the cars were sealed, the windows closed, German police served as guards.” By six the morning of 18 May the train left for Lodz; these provincial Jews arriving in Lodz were housed in barracks vacated by western European Jews who had been shipped out that same month to Chelmno and were joined subsequently by 3000 more Jews (“older men and women, disabled for work, and children over ten”) from Brzeziny. Twelve hundred of the Brzeziny Jews in Lodz were shipped almost immediately out; of these Rosenfeld reported that 360 were sent on “to somewhere for forced labor.”

In some places the members of the Judenrate of the Jewish communities targeted for liquidation were killed before actions began, leaving the Jews without their leaders. Two examples from early 1942 are the ghettos Zychlin and Kutno. In addition, as at Gostynin in the same period, Jews not capable of work were sometimes shot before roundups began, in public view of the Jews ordered to take transports.

The final liquidation of Lodz ghetto in 1944 was conducted again using a mixture of deception, division, threats, violence, and force:

- Lodz ghetto had 78,000 Jews in summer 1944, about 90 percent of whom were ill, nearly all were on the verge of starvation, most were broken down by their long ghetto confinement

- deportations robbing the ghetto of those individuals who might have organized resistance, we have the commitment of a ghetto population to survival through labor



- the Gestapo intervened more directly in the ghetto during 1944 than before, making the Jewish leadership, already the transmission belt for German direction, less and less a factor



- in the period before the evacuation

 the leader of the ghetto was arrested and held twice by the Gestapo

- there were numerous outsettlements ostensibly for labor in the months leading up to the dissolution of Lodz ghetto



- Germans directly organized and propagandized for the evacuation, mixing promises and threats in meetings with Lodz Jews, trying to get them to depart without need for direct violence; among the arguments used by the Germans were threats of bombing raids, promises of good jobs, warnings of reprisals from the Soviets, and direct statements that the Jews were to be ousted violently if they did not cooperate



- Jews, led by the tailors ressorts (workshops), resisted the deportation, many going into hiding



- the Gestapo and other German police units took over the hunt of Jews, conducting major cordoning-off actions, shooting recalcitrant Jews whom they've hunted down



- witnesses wrote about rifle shots, murders of Jews in the roundups, and noting that the units involved were German



- witness reports noted that food supplies into the ghetto were cut off to force resisting Jews to give up; there were simultaneous reports that the German authorities made food available to those who came to assembly points

- a trickle only of "voluntary" deportees, even under these conditions of debilitation and starvation, compulsion, and violence

We also have a great deal of evidence concerning how the transports themselves were conducted.

Wilhelm Schulte described a transport from Lodz to Chlemno in 1942: "There were Jews in . . . six or seven [train] carriages. As I recall, a railway employee had locked the doors of those carriages. I cannot remember if there was a special police or SS squad to watch the Jews. . . . The train went to Kolo. The Jews had to leave the train there and get into carriages of a narrow gauge train. It proceeded under control of SS men and young policemen." At the mill in Zawadka, where Lodz Jews were held temporarily before their final journey to Chelmno, Schulte said that SS Hauptsturmfuhrer Hans Bothmann was present overseeing the operation carried out by a unit of German police. There were about 15 armed policemen for this particular operation, and no more than 300 Jewish victims. The policemen guarded the Jews "so that they did not run away" until trucks arrived to take the victims to Chelmno for gassing. Schulte also described other stages of the operation and how each time they were moved the Jews slated for execution were guarded by German police officers. Gestapo officers brought the Jews from Lodz to transit points, where they were handed over to police units who guarded them in holding sites and then moved them to the execution site in Chelmno. According to Schulte, the policemen working at Kolo and other transfer points were given leather whips to use against the Jews they guarded and transported.

Heinz May recorded some of the conduct of the police during the transports. In one case, he described how a Jewish child tripped while being marched under escort and a German policeman "grabbed the child by one leg and threw it on the vehicle [carrying those too sick to walk] like a piece of wood." Another time, according to May, German police forced with rifle butts sick Jews having difficulty marching to get up. A bystander had been helping these Jews and objected, whereupon, according to May, "One of the officials raised his pistol against the person who made the remark. I thought that he wanted to frighten him but a shot could be heard right then. The man collapsed. He tried to get up but fell down again and remained lying with his head on the tracks. Bright red blood and foaming blood came from his mouth. Terrified, the sick pulled themselves together and staggered to the column" of Jews being marched by the German police. "One man could not make it and fell down again. Another shot; he did not rise anymore either."

It is difficult to understand what Clayton is going on about, given the heaps of evidence from a variety of witnesses in various forms, recorded at the time and in the years following the actions - unless he is ignorant of how the operations were conducted. The questions and challenges Clayton raises certainly make him sound ignorant, because anyone with even the slightest knowledge of the how the Germans conducted roundups and transport operations is aware of how deception, terror, and force were used to compel the victims to obey the orders given them. Even so, the record is replete, as anyone who's read even a few accounts of the actions is aware, with examples of Jewish resistance, from hiding to resistance.
 
Last edited:
Moss said:
I have no idea where cm gets the idea from that the Jews had any ability to counteract the German transports. What could they have done?
Click to expand...

Apparently, they could have revolted. Because machine guns are no match for being, like, really really mad.
 
BaaBaa said:
Not enough merchandising possibilities- THIS one, though: cartoons, plush toys, sneaker endorsments...
[qimg]http://dl.dropbox.com/u/7434856/octopus.jpg[/qimg]
Click to expand...
Not to mention tie-in erotic anime.

*shudder*

LemmyCaution said:
Feel free to use this thread to make a point, if you have one. You may have noticed other members doing this.
Click to expand...
Oh snap!
 
Last edited:
000063 said:
Not to mention tie-in erotic anime.

*shudder*

Oh snap!
Click to expand...

You made me think of Bible Black and similar things. BAD 000063!

I for one greet our new Jewish Cthulhoid Overlords. May your reign be long and prosperous.
 
Mondial said:
"The alleged Hitlerite gas chambers and the alleged genocide of the Jews form one and the same historical lie, which has permitted a gigantic political and financial swindle whose main beneficiaries are the state of Israel and international Zionism and whose main victims are the German people - but not their leaders - and the Palestinian people in their entirety." - Robert Faurisson http://robertfaurisson.blogspot.com.au/2012/02/against-hollywoodism-revisionism.html See also www.holocaustdenier.com
Click to expand...

9. The Case of Adolf Eichmann
The fate of Adolf Eichmann reached truly monumental and sensational proportions with his so-called capture in Argentina by Israeli agents on May 12, 1960. The Israeli authorities decided to hold the world in suspense for an entire year before placing the former German official before a court under conditions in which any reference to a fair trial would be merely ludicrous.

The alleged memoirs of Eichmann were uncritically published in Life, November 28, December 5, 1960, without any attention having been paid to the fact that more than one scandal had been caused by spurious memoirs during recent years. One need only imagine how Gerhard Ritter, the president of the German Historical Society, felt in 1953 when it was proved that Hitlers Tischgespraeche (Hitler's Secret Conversations, N.Y., 1953), which he had edited for publication in 1952, was utterly fraudulent. Nevertheless, in 1960, a record allegedly derived from Eichmann's comments in 1955 to a highly dubious associate were to be accepted as definitive memoirs. They were designed to prove, of course, that "the unregenerate Nazi" Eichmann was every inch the fiend that be has been depicted. A disarming attempt to make them seem authentic was furnished by the touch that Eichmann did not say what his cohort, Hoettl, claimed at Nuremberg that he had said about the alleged killing of millions of Jews (Time, June 6, 1960, reported Eichmann had said five million Jews; Newsweek, June 6, 1960, claimed he had said six million).

The number of unlikely touches in the Life account make the performance look about as clumsy as the typical Communist-forged memoirs. For instance, Weissberg noted that Eichmann had made his proposal on Jewish emigration to Brand, with the specific authorization of Himmler, on April 25, 1944, at the Hotel Majestic in Budapest. The Life account has Himmler authorizing the exchange of Jewish emigrants for war material in 1944 "when Reichsführer Himmler took over as commander of the reserve army." But Himmler did not receive his active military command over the Volkssturm until August 1944, after the July 20, 1944 assassination attempt against Hitler.
Click to expand...

http://www.ihr.org/books/hoggan/09.html

Another of the Team Holocaust lies exposed.
 
Yet the fact the Eichmann confessed in court to the crimes he was charged with yet took the defence of "following orders" doesn't persuade you one bit? Did he make that up?
 
LogicFail said:
Yet the fact the Eichmann confessed in court to the crimes he was charged with yet took the defence of "following orders" doesn't persuade you one bit? Did he make that up?
Click to expand...

Everyone in Germany took orders but one person.

Once again the lies are ignored.

Maybe a reread will help.

The fate of Adolf Eichmann reached truly monumental and sensational proportions with his so-called capture in Argentina by Israeli agents on May 12, 1960. The Israeli authorities decided to hold the world in suspense for an entire year before placing the former German official before a court under conditions in which any reference to a fair trial would be merely ludicrous.

The alleged memoirs of Eichmann were uncritically published in Life, November 28, December 5, 1960, without any attention having been paid to the fact that more than one scandal had been caused by spurious memoirs during recent years. One need only imagine how Gerhard Ritter, the president of the German Historical Society, felt in 1953 when it was proved that Hitlers Tischgespraeche (Hitler's Secret Conversations, N.Y., 1953), which he had edited for publication in 1952, was utterly fraudulent. Nevertheless, in 1960, a record allegedly derived from Eichmann's comments in 1955 to a highly dubious associate were to be accepted as definitive memoirs. They were designed to prove, of course, that "the unregenerate Nazi" Eichmann was every inch the fiend that be has been depicted. A disarming attempt to make them seem authentic was furnished by the touch that Eichmann did not say what his cohort, Hoettl, claimed at Nuremberg that he had said about the alleged killing of millions of Jews (Time, June 6, 1960, reported Eichmann had said five million Jews; Newsweek, June 6, 1960, claimed he had said six million).

The number of unlikely touches in the Life account make the performance look about as clumsy as the typical Communist-forged memoirs. For instance, Weissberg noted that Eichmann had made his proposal on Jewish emigration to Brand, with the specific authorization of Himmler, on April 25, 1944, at the Hotel Majestic in Budapest. The Life account has Himmler authorizing the exchange of Jewish emigrants for war material in 1944 "when Reichsführer Himmler took over as commander of the reserve army." But Himmler did not receive his active military command over the Volkssturm until August 1944, after the July 20, 1944 assassination attempt against Hitler.
Click to expand...
http://www.ihr.org/books/hoggan/09.html
 
LOL, Eichmann's trial was delayed a year so he could present an adequate defense. It was extremely fair!! If they wanted to give him an unfair trial they would've just shot him in Argentina or tried him a few weeks after he arrived in Israel.

You just argued against yourself (and for the first time convincingly)

The exchange attempts of prisoners for materials did occur , it was orchestrated by some businessmen and some members of the govt. Yet this is not evidence that the holocaust didn't occur. In fact one could say it has NOTHING TO DO WITH IT.

The Japanese did prisoner exchanges with the allies on a number of occasions, that doesn't mean the Bataan Death march is a myth.......
 
You know it's amazing. German soldiers and officials admit to the the events of the Holocaust, many pre-defeat and Clayton defends them. Even though their actions resulted in the deaths of thousands of US and Allied servicemen Clayton defends them.
 
. . . Weissberg noted that Eichmann had made his proposal on Jewish emigration to Brand, with the specific authorization of Himmler, on April 25, 1944, at the Hotel Majestic in Budapest. The Life account has Himmler authorizing the exchange of Jewish emigrants for war material in 1944 "when Reichsführer Himmler took over as commander of the reserve army." But Himmler did not receive his active military command over the Volkssturm until August 1944, after the July 20, 1944 assassination attempt against Hitler.
Click to expand...
Hoggan is mendacious.

In the first place, the Life piece has Eichmann saying that the year in which the assassination attempt occurred, in which Himmler got his commission as commander of the Reserve Army, and in which the negotiations concerning the Hungarian Jews took place was 1944, not that Himmler got his reserve army commission before the negotiations commenced: "It was 1944, the year of the assassination attempt on Hitler, when Reichsfuhrer Himmler took over as commander of the Reserve Army, that he authorized me to propose an exchange: one million Jews for 10,000 winterized trucks with trailers." That is the full sentence in the Life article.

In the second place, the Reserve Army and the Volkssturm were not one in the same. Himmler received his commission from Hitler to command the Reserve Army on 20 July, succeeding Fromm, Stauffenberg's superior, placing the Reichsfuhrer in charge of 2 million men; it was not until 2 months later, in September, that Himmler would form a home guard, the Volkssturm, as a new component of his command.

This makes the silliness of Clayton's Hoggan quotation doubly idiotic: The article didn't say what is claimed, and the formation of the Volkssturm is different to the command of the Reserve Army - so Hoggan's confused attempt to correct the Life piece on this score proves nothing. Typically, Hoggan adopts a pseudo-scholarly, pedantic, scolding tone - but has his facts mixed up. Clayton quotes from this confused mishmash without a clue.
 
Last edited:
Weckert's "article" concludes merrily without having discussed the gassing program at Chelmno and after handwaving away the evidence for use of gassing vans in the "euthanasia program" with this "convincing" argument in the phony scholar mode so typical of denier pseudo-scholarship: "It is beyond the scope of this work to discuss these claims here, and it shall suffice to say that they are no more credible than the others we have examined." Where Weckert does try dealing with Chelmno, she trips up mightily: http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/2008/12/weckert-on-chelmno.html
 
Clayton Moore said:
I'm speaking that the Holocaust was a big whooping lie. If a million Jewish children, women, and men had been killed in gas chambers in Poland the other 2 million Jewish children, women, and men who were supposedly gassed to death would have never gone to the Polish camps no matter what the threat.

The Holocaust believers are saying that the European Jewish people were stupid. We know that was never true, don't we?
Click to expand...
Edited by kmortis: 
Removed personal comment
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Perhaps one of the two revisionist historians left on this thread - one asking if gas vans are a "freaking" joke, the other declaring them bogus - would care to comment on the most important witnesses to operations at Chelmno, including the gas vans, and, in his own words, give his views on what these witnesses reported. Doing so would enable discussion beyond exchanging salutations and snap judgments like "bogus" and "freaking."
 
Clayton Moore said:
What rubbish. Micromanaging millions of Jewish people and killing millions of Jewish people. The lies never stop.

How did they stage millions of Jewish people for execution without millions of Jewish people realizing millions of Jewish people had been executed/gassed before them? It's just stupid, stupid, stupid.
Click to expand...

Your heros the SS and SD plus their auxiliaries were very well organized and very methodical endowed with Heaps of resources including expertise in the use of Deception, Terror and Fear on an unarmed civilian population (ethnic minority). No different to what e.g. Stalin and Brother Number One (Pol Pot) both achieved with unstinting success. DECEPTION !, FEAR !, TERROR.! Simple really

But back to a question I asked you earlier which you successfully sidestepped and evaded.

Lets run for a moment that these millions were in fact merely resettled. For example the claim by your Holohoax Industry that Treblinka was in fact designed for this kind of purpose. A Transit center before resettlement ,some where out there.

1 Where were precisely these resettlement centers.?
2. What were they like.? Who administered them. ( the SS, Reich Security office, Wermacht etc.) .?
3. Have any of those agencies left documentation, photos and film etc including eyewitness accounts by both inmates and Guards, administrators etc.?. If not,why not.?. You'd think they would be only to pleased to show the world how kindly they treated the Jews in occupied territories.?
4. Did the advancing Russian armies report about them.?
5. Given their benevolent nature did the Germans ever invite the IRC to inspect and report about them. If not,why not.?
6. Are their extant inmate and Guard accounts of what went on in these "resettlement "centers?

This time a chance by you to specifically address the points raised.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom