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Merged General Holocaust denial discussion thread

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http://www.ushmm.org/research/center/publications/details.php?content=2006-03

Like I said, this is just the beginning of an effort to cushion the reaction to the revelation for brain dead believers that there were no gas chambers.
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A book published 6 years ago is the beginning?

For what are they waiting?

And who has made this "revelation"?

And why don't you even try to support the crap you post -- did they use bullets in WWII or not?
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As Noam might say "It makes no difference if the gas chambers never existed. The Holocaust did happen. Get over it."
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Might, in one of your wet dreams. Here in reality, he's never said anything even close to that.
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I don't think much of Noam, but I know he's not prone to double negatives.....


Brain dead believers eh? so i guess you and your 14 buddies are smarter than the rest of us? well, if that's the case, why don't you work on that cold fusion!
 
It's just a way to cushion the response when the bubble bursts.

So, if you dare question the "Holocaust narrative", the Zionspiracy will label you a denier and suppress your work and possibly even toss you in jail. And if you do question the "Holocaust narrative", it's just a way to prepare everyone for when the "bubble bursts".

Pretty convenient for your side, having it both ways like that.

A. You don't brutalize people in the proximity of those who are expected to provide meaningful work to support a war effort.

If only the Confederate States of America had you around back then to tell them these things. They might have done better in the Civil War.
 
So, if you dare question the "Holocaust narrative", the Zionspiracy will label you a denier and suppress your work and possibly even toss you in jail. And if you do question the "Holocaust narrative", it's just a way to prepare everyone for when the "bubble bursts".

Pretty convenient for your side, having it both ways like that.



If only the Confederate States of America had you around back then to tell them these things. They might have done better in the Civil War.

Not to derail, but I think that this is kind of a poor comparison. Not only were the number of slaves killed by the confederacy incomparable to the Germans treatment of the Jews. I don't think the south had the industrial capacity to win a war that lasted that long. They had the men and the generals to do it. But not the capacity to wage war....

But that's for another thread.... one that would be far less mind numbing than this one I reckon.... It's just so hard to listen to people say something as horribly dumb as that the Holocaust didn't happen...even if I'm just giving him the attention he so desperately craves
 
It's just so hard to listen to people say something as horribly dumb as that the Holocaust didn't happen...even if I'm just giving him the attention he so desperately craves

I think this nails it when it comes to Clayton. He'll say anything to get people to pay attention to him. Some people might call that pathetic, but it's true all the same.
 
See www.benferencz.org

http://www.ushmm.org/research/center/publications/details.php?content=2006-03


Like I said, this is just the beginning of an effort to cushion the reaction to the revelation for brain dead believers that there were no gas chambers. As Noam might say "It makes no difference if the gas chambers never existed. The Holocaust did happen. Get over it."
among the many problems with this statement is the fact that Gruner's book explicitly covers the mass murder, including Birkenau and the gas vans at Chelmno
 
Here is just one example of how, according to Clayton Moore, who has probably not read Gruner's book, judging from his ignorant comments on it, Gruner begins "an effort to cushion the reaction to the revelation for brain dead believers that there were no gas chambers":

- "the forced labor objectives [of some Warthegau authorities] clashed with the interests of persecutory policy. This conflict became especially acute when the anti-Jewish murder program began in the Warthegau. . . . Most of the victims were then killed with gas vans in Kulmhof (Chelmno)." p 190

- "At the beginning of 1943, the SS special commissioner [Schmelt] had at his disposal a total of over 50,570 male and female Jewish forced laborers. . . . Mid-1943 marked the beginning both of ghetto liquidations and of mass deportations of forced laborers in Upper Silesia. The over 800 artisans' workshops in the cities of eastern Upper Silesia were closed and the workers deported to Auschwitz. Thus, on June 25, 1943, a transport with 2,500 people from the Bendsburg ghetto reached the extermination camp. All the inmates on the train went to their deaths. In August, further transports from Sonowtiz and Bendsburg with over 30,000 people followed." p 227

It seems that in the crazy world of Clayton Moore the way an author backs away from a position and prepares his readers for his retreat is to attack head on and repeat, and present evidence for, the position he's supposedly abandoning.
 
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Gas vans! That about as absurd as the rumor that "Jews were killed by an incredible electric current passed through water"
Well, in contrast to your misstatements about him, Gruner doesn't think it's absurd. Nor do I, but let's stay on topic.
 
Gas vans! That about as absurd as the rumor that "Jews were killed by an incredible electric current passed through water"

Then it would seem that if Gruner is attempting to "cushion the response when the bubble bursts", he's not doing a very good job, is he?
 
Here is just one example of how, according to Clayton Moore, who has probably not read Gruner's book, judging from his ignorant comments on it

Clayton hadn't even read Wiesel's book when he made ignorant comments on it. Why should he change his ways now?
 
Gas vans! That about as absurd as the rumor that "Jews were killed by an incredible electric current passed through water"

CM, incredulity is not an argument. If you have objections be specific instead of "it's absurd".
 
Perhaps we can attract some deniers who have actually read something, if only denier and neo-Nazi websites, about the Holocaust to this thread. Better yet would be some deniers who have read actual books and documents. With this in mind, the fact that RODOH was closed down this past week by the board's operator might mean new members here. (RODOH was shut off with the no more than the following explanations given by the operator: "Our terms of use require that the message boards are being used in a manner that is respectful to all people" and "The community was disabled over the fact that racism speech was found in many threads.")

Already suggestions have been made to RODOH deniers, some of whom, it must be said, have expressed that they feel the debate here lacking in merit, to consider joining JREF and the discussion in this thread. I've read misguided comments from them, for example, that as I came over to JREF and withdrew from debates at RODOH, my doing so was to enjoy weaker arguments. Given this attitude, the appeal to these deniers now without a discussion forum might be, if they sincerely believe this, to come here and prove their merit.

We do sorely need to have some deniers with at least some knowledge, slanted as it might be, of the history, basic documents and arguments, and the positions of denial. Further discussion in this thread, in fact, is nearly impossible without some people who can debate the Holocaust using evidence and arguments joining here.
 
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Continuing with Wolf Gruner's so-called "cushioning" thesis, Gruner describes the launching of Aktion Reinhard in spring 1942 as the "mass annihilation of Polish Jews" commencing at Belzec, the death camp that began operating on 17 March with victims deported there from Lublin.

On that very day, a German official in Lublin, Fritz Reuter, summarized an order from Hermann Hofle writing that "1. It would be useful, at the departure station, to separate the Jewish transports destined for the Lublin district [location of Belzec] into Jews fit for utilization and those unfit for utilization. . . . 2. Jews unfit for utilization go to Belzec. . . . ," while those fit for labor would be sent to work camp.

In the latter part of March also about 15,000 Jews were sent to Belzec from Lwow (Lemberg) for extermination, according to Gruner. Deportations carried out by the SS in Galicia, however, paused in April as Jews in the area were assigned to various work assignments.

In May, as Aktion Reinhard continued, Himmler temporarily exempted Jews aged 16 to 35 from deportation to the death camps ("Jews and Jewesses aged 16 to 32 who are capable of work are to be excluded from special measures until further notice. These Jews are to be put to work en bloc KZ or labour camp," Himmler instructed in a general order). These Jews were held back from the general murder program and assigned for the time being to armaments projects or other work in support of the German war effort.

(By June 10s of 1000s of Jews were being deported to Belzec and Sobibor for extermination.)

Gruner cites a statement of the GG labor commissioner, Max Frauendorfer, at a meeting held 22 June that these working Jews were "not actually exempted from SS operations but [would be left] to work for the duration of the war." In other words, some work-capable Jews were held back from the SS extermination action in order to work supporting the war effort and to be dealt with later, when their labor would no longer be so important. Such workers were supplied to war critical industries, road construction, etc., as well as to the military.

In summer, on 19 July, Himmler went further, ordering that all Jews not taken to the death camps be moved by year's end into either a series of SS controlled labor camps or concentrated in working ghettos (Warsaw, Krakow, Lublin, Radom). This order made clear that Jews in the area were either to be killed in an Aktion Reinhard camp or put to work for as long as they were needed in a forced labor situation. (Conditions of labor were themselves nearly lethal, claiming many lives, in all such camps and other operations during this period, as Gruner makes clear.)

It is these considerations that lead Gruner to conclude that Aktion Reinhard "extended not only to annihilation of the Jews and resale of their property but also - and this has remained unnoticed - to exploitation of Jews workers," p 258, until such time they became either incapable of work, through exploitation, or were no longer needed.

By fall 1942, as Warsaw's ghetto was being stripped of all but essential workers, authorities in the GG estimated that there were 1 million "commercial workers," according to Gruner, and of these about a third were still Jews, of whom 100,000 were skilled craftsmen. The killing program in the GG proceeded, then, by means of planning among the authorities that recognized economic needs and provided for them, even while annihilating 100s of 1000s of Jews. And these surviving Jews were not planned to live for long, as the fall 1943 Harvest Festival Operation, in which the SS murdered over 40,000 Jewish laborers in SS work-camps, would show.

Clearly, with his silly and baseless comments about Gruner's intent and arguments, Clayton Moore once again exposes his own ignorance and lack of reading - but also the way deniers operation, making up whatever suits them to try and sustain an impossible point of view.
 
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Continuing with Wolf Gruner's so-called "cushioning" thesis, Gruner describes the launching of Aktion Reinhard in spring 1942 as the "mass annihilation of Polish Jews" commencing at Belzec, the death camp that began operating on 17 March with victims deported there from Lublin.

On that very day, a German official in Lublin, Fritz Reuter, summarized an order from Hermann Hofle writing that "1. It would be useful, at the departure station, to separate the Jewish transports destined for the Lublin district [location of Belzec] into Jews fit for utilization and those unfit for utilization. . . . 2. Jews unfit for utilization go to Belzec. . . . ," while those fit for labor would be sent to work camp.

In the latter part of March also about 15,000 Jews were sent to Belzec from Lwow (Lemberg) for extermination, according to Gruner. Deportations carried out by the SS in Galicia, however, paused in April as Jews in the area were assigned to various work assignments.

In May, as Aktion Reinhard continued, Himmler temporarily exempted Jews aged 16 to 35 from deportation to the death camps ("Jews and Jewesses aged 16 to 32 who are capable of work are to be excluded from special measures until further notice. These Jews are to be put to work en bloc KZ or labour camp," Himmler instructed in a general order). These Jews were held back from the general murder program and assigned for the time being to armaments projects or other work in support of the German war effort.

(By June 10s of 1000s of Jews were being deported to Belzec and Sobibor for extermination.)

Gruner cites a statement of the GG labor commissioner, Max Frauendorfer, at a meeting held 22 June that these working Jews were "not actually exempted from SS operations but [would be left] to work for the duration of the war." In other words, some work-capable Jews were held back from the SS extermination action in order to work supporting the war effort and to be dealt with later, when their labor would no longer be so important. Such workers were supplied to war critical industries, road construction, etc., as well as to the military.

In summer, on 19 July, Himmler went further, ordering that all Jews not taken to the death camps be moved by year's end into either a series of SS controlled labor camps or concentrated in working ghettos (Warsaw, Krakow, Lublin, Radom). This order made clear that Jews in the area were either to be killed in an Aktion Reinhard camp or put to work for as long as they were needed in a forced labor situation. (Conditions of labor were themselves nearly lethal, claiming many lives, in all such camps and other operations during this period, as Gruner makes clear.)

It is these considerations that lead Gruner to conclude that Aktion Reinhard "extended not only to annihilation of the Jews and resale of their property but also - and this has remained unnoticed - to exploitation of Jews workers," p 258, until such time they became either incapable of work, through exploitation, or were no longer needed.

By fall 1942, as Warsaw's ghetto was being stripped of all but essential workers, authorities in the GG estimated that there were 1 million "commercial workers," according to Gruner, and of these about a third were still Jews, of whom 100,000 were skilled craftsmen. The killing program in the GG proceeded, then, by means of planning among the authorities that recognized economic needs and provided for them, even while annihilating 100s of 1000s of Jews. And these surviving Jews were not planned to live for long, as the fall 1943 Harvest Festival Operation, in which the SS murdered over 40,000 Jewish laborers in SS work-camps, would show.

What rubbish. Micromanaging millions of Jewish people and killing millions of Jewish people. The lies never stop.

How did they stage millions of Jewish people for execution without millions of Jewish people realizing millions of Jewish people had been executed/gassed before them? It's just stupid, stupid, stupid.
 
How did they stage millions of Jewish people for execution without millions of Jewish people realizing millions of Jewish people had been executed/gassed before them? It's just stupid, stupid, stupid.
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Yes, your denial is stupid, stupid stoooopid.

Who has claimed that no Jew realized what was going on?


Other than idiot deniers, I mean.


And I note that you have no rational answer as to why Elie's tatt or lack thereof means squat.

Care to address those 66 answers now?



Or are you still waiting to be spoon fed a single lie from the THHP site?
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Who has claimed that no Jew realized what was going on?

If they knew they would not have gone. Period. End of story.


And I note that you have no rational answer as to why Elie's tatt or lack thereof means squat.

So, no matter how many Holocaust VIPs are blatant liars, that's hunky dory with you and your historian heroes?

Or are you still waiting to be spoon fed a single lie from the THHP site?

I wouldn't know where to begin as the whole site is a lie. A lie to keep the Holocaust cash cow alive.


Care to address those 66 answers now?

Yes. They are all lies or ridiculous exaggerations.
 
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