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Merged General Holocaust denial discussion thread

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First of all, imprecise or vague thinking would cause imprecise or vague wording. Imprecise or vague wording doesn't cause imprecise or vague thinking. Second of all, by your precise definition of the holocaust, everybody here is a holocaust denier. Nobody says the holocaust is the systematic slaughter of six million Jews in Nazi gas chambers during WWII.

Look, you are dancing around the fact that you completely misused the word as I pointed out. The dictionary definition of holocaust is clear, the planned slaughter blah blah blah. You said Heddesheimer didn't lay out a plan for it. Of course he didn't, you're misusing the word.


Then what he is doing is documenting how individual Jews and Jewish organizations in powerful positions spread disinformation throughout the twentieth century. That's not a Jewish conspiracy.

That is precisely a Jewish conspiracy.

And the disinformation that was published didn't always say Jews were being slaughtered. Sometimes they were in danger of being slaughtered. It didn't specifically say gas chambers. It didn't always say it was state-sponsored. It wasn't always Germany. IIRC it was Russia and Poland until 1933.

Reading the press during the twentieth century would give you the impression that the Jews of Europe were on the verge of annihilation. Their sky was always falling. If you pay attention to the annual reports published by the ADL, their sky is still always falling. That's not a conspiracy.

That is precisely a conspiracy. The Jews are publishing false info in the Jewish controlled/owned press which includes the NYT.


Jews are disproportionally represented in positions of power. They have a disproportionate share of the wealth. Why is that? Judaism values learning and scholarship. Kids who grow up in families that value learning and scholarship do well in school. Kids who do well in school get into better colleges. They graduate and get higher paying jobs with greater responsibility and power. That's not a conspiracy.

What you have not described is not a conspiracy, but Jews hiring Jews, Jews financing Jews, Jews collaborating to control industries, etc., is all a conspiracy.


When I went to Philadelphia I visited Betsy Ross' house. I thought that the ceilings are awfully low but I didn't doubt that this was actually Betsy Ross' house. When I went to Auschwitz I saw a free standing chimney next to an air raid shelter and I believed it was a gas chamber because that's what I was told. I thought the place had a vague ersatz feel to it--kind of like Death Camp Land at Disneyworld--but I didn't think "this is a fake." I just thought something was not quite right. I saw some people there who were obviously Jewish. They were moved emotionally in a way that I was not. I seriously doubt they were laughing inside at how they tricked the stupid goyim as they shed their crocodile tears. There's no conspiracy whereby all the Jews in the world know that the holocaust is actually the holohoax. They believe it for the same reason non-Jews believe it: they're told it happened and they're not told some of the specific details that would make them question it.

But if they're participating in a hoax without knowing it is a hoax, you can't accuse them of nefarious intent. If they're willing participants in a conspiracy to promote a hoax, by definition they have to know it is a hoax. The people behind the scenes who promote criminalizing questioning the holocaust should be aware that they're doing something that shouldn't need to be done. Truth doesn't need legislation. They are legitimate targets of your anger. So are the morons who deny holocaust denial legislation. But those are individuals. I wonder how many Jews in America are even aware that denial is illegal in other countries.

The Jews created the hoax, they have the responsibility for ending it. Of course they will not, they benefit from it greatly. If they suspect it's a hoax they banish those thoughts. If you call it a hoax they will banish you if it's in their power. Every Jewish academic participates in the hoax.




We're arguing semantics but that isn't surprising. Nobody--especially the holocaust promoters--can give you a definition of the holocaust. To me, the holocaust is what happened to the Jews in Europe during WWII. Part of that is knowing what happened in the camps and why the conditions were what they were. I know how the facts on the ground were twisted into what I think you call the holohoax. I just don't see an organized Jewish conspiracy behind it all. I see victorious Allies wanting to justify their anger towards the Germans. Jews were involved but it wasn't all the Jews and it wasn't only the Jews.



You see the gas chamber at Auschwitz as all the evidence you need of the hoax. I agree that it's pretty pathetic but that's because I am aware it is a fake. When I saw it 1992, I wasn't aware it was a fake. When I saw Dachau in 1980 I didn't question the gas chambers. A vague explanation of how these places worked was enough for me. If somebody had tried to explain how they disposed of all the bodies I might have been more skeptical. That's probably why they don't go into those details. I know how the USHMM, the SWMOT, and all the other holocaust remembrance icons promote the holocaust through emotion based tripe without any factual details. I know that the Jewish community supports these efforts. I just don't see an intentional conspiracy behind it all.

The hoax gas chamber is not pathetic, it is criminal, it is degenerate, it is the most despicable hoax that has ever been perpetrated. Either the Nazis committed a monstrous and horrific crime in attempting to exterminate the Jews, or the Jews are telling monstrous and degenerate lies in saying that they did.


When I hear you say 'conspiracy' I think of something along the lines of an intelligent design behind the holocaust. I see the holocaust as evolutionary. If there was a conspiracy behind the holocaust or holohoax, when did they drop the steam chambers in favor of the gas chambers? Why did they give the steam chambers the IMT seal of approval to begin with? Why did they say a million and a half were murdered at Madjanek and then drop the death toll to somewhere around less than a hundred thousand or wherever it is today? Why did they say four and half million Allied nationals were murdered at Auschwitz during the Zyklon B trials and then drop the number to four million for about forty years before settling on one million or so. After the number was dropped to one million, why did they come up with the explanation that when it was four million, a quarter of the victims were Jewish but now that it's one million, all the victims were Jewish? And nobody ever believed it was four million anyway. Why were Jews turned into lampshades and bars of soap after the war but now nobody ever said they were? The holocaust has been in a state of constant flux from the beginning. I think if there was a conspiracy behind the holocaust it would have been thought out. We wouldn't see the holocaust industry playing whack-a-mole with the deniers like we do.

The holohoax evolved, that's clear. That doesn't mean it's an urban myth. It was a deliberate hoax conceived by Jews in the World Jewish and Jews in high positions in the US and Europe. It evolved with the circumstances and with opportunities presented. It was not passive, it was active, particularly in post war Europe and in the Nuremberg trials. And it continues to be active today with endless hoax news articles, the USHMM, etc.
 
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The unbiased scholar will not demand one specific type of evidence and, if it is unavailable, will dismiss the whole thing.
So does this mean you will stop hiding behind Saggy's "one witness at a time" standard?

Or do you admit that you lot are biased?

If you really believe these bold words, then you will stop your willful stupidity with regard to the events in Vilna we've been discussing and your reliance on one witness at a time. You will instead explain to us how you evaluate Kruk's Vilna journal (and the witnesses whose testimony he summarizes); the Polish journalist Sakowicz's diary of Ponar; the report filed by Karl Jaeger; Dworzecki's testimony; Rudashevski's diary; Balberyszki's memoir; and the other diaries, trial results, and witness testimony summarized in Arad and other secondary sources. That would mean that you will start participating like a full-fledged adult in at least one discussion of a part of the Holocaust.

Also, you will explain to us why you evaluate these disparate sources as you judge them and, if you reject them, why - what is your problem with the evidence in them. If you want to say that the various sources mesh because of forgery or manipulation, you will need to describe, using positive and good evidence, how you know that this forgery or manipulation occurred; who conducted this forgery or manipulation work and how it was carried out, with specifics; and when and where the forgeries or manipulations were made and disseminated.
 
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I note that Rathenau was during and before World War I a noted German Nationalist and Conservative Liberal. He was heavily involved in getting Germany geared up and producing war material during the First World War. After the war, during which he supported Pan-German aims, he moderated his views and tried to work out a strategy of working within the limits of Versailles for the time period, thus shortly before his assasination he negotiated the Treaty of Rapallo with the Soviet Union, so as to eventually get out from them. This did not please some fanatical rightwing anti-semites who murdered him. two of the assassins died in the ensuing manhunt and the surviving assassin was released for good behavior in 1927.

Which is what makes him a great object lesson for Clayton Moore. He was practically a national conservative.
 
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Irrelevant. The unbiased scholar will not demand one specific type of evidence and, if it is unavailable, will dismiss the whole thing.

But that's precisely what you're doing.

We don't have lots of documents written in Alpha Centauri but so what? We don't have any German documents referring to gas chambers or a plan to exterminate all the Jews.

Sure we do. We have at least two documents that I can think of off the top of my head specifically mentioning gas chambers at Auschwitz-Birkenau, and we've got the SS verdict against Max Täubner that specifically mentions the extermination of the Jews. Not to mention Himmler's October 1943 speech at Poznan. That's just what I was able to think of in less than a minute.

For both UFOs and the holocaust we have primarily eyewitness statements.

That's about half true. For UFOs and the Holocaust, we have eyewitness statements for the "victims." For the Holocaust, we also have perpetrator statements, which we don't have for UFOs. Thus, the analogy is false.

To analyze the veracity of these eyewitness statements we have to consider the motivation for providing them. How many disinterested third parties have come forward to testify about the holocaust? People who were uninvolved bystanders with nothing to lose or gain by testifying?

I suggest you see Shoah for starters or read any of the testimonies published by Fr. Patrick Desbois as he soldiers across the former Soviet Union talking to bystanders.

People who have seen UFOs have nothing to gain and a great deal to lose by telling the world what they saw. None of them are motivated by either revenge or a desire to escape punishment.

You're confusing two categories — I suspect deliberately. People who claim to have seen UFOs aren't bystanders. They're "victims" if we're maintaining a logical analogy. Bystanders would be, e.g., not Earthlings or Alpha Centaurians, but Romulans, let's say, who were able to testify that they saw ships from Alpha Centauri traveling to Earth.

Notably, there are none of those w/r/t UFOs either.

So it's true that the evidence for the holocaust and for UFOs is not comparable. UFO eyewitnesses are of a much higher caliber.

Not really. In most cases, they're simply deranged in some way or another, which cannot be said for the vast majority of witnesses to the Holocaust — particularly those, you know, pesky bystanders and perpetrators.

People who believe they have seen intelligent life from another planet have one more advantage: what they say they saw is actually possible. People who say three people can fit into one square foot of gas chamber space or who believe twenty eight people can be buried in one cubic meter of mass grave space are clearly deranged.

If that's the best you can do, i.e., to dispute what people say are the physical dimensions of the apparatus of killing years if not decades after the fact, then you're going to have to try harder.
 
I'm inclined simply to keep a score tally of how many time the Dumb Arguments are raised from here on out.

Auschwitz 4 million
Eisenhower/Churchill/de Gaulle
UFO abductions
witchcraft
‘no physical evidence’
‘no documents’
Elie Wiesel
Allies bombed railway lines
 
If you're not convinced by this thread that the Holocaust is mostly lies and fabrications you're likely a Zionist shill or a Zionist dupe.

If you are a lurker who has seen the light and realizes the Holocaust is a self serving lie send me a message.
 
You're just so much smarter than the rest of us, Clayton. Thanks for agreeing to appear here. I feel like I'm seeing the second coming of Christ.

{"Prepare ye the way of the Lord..."}
 
And while you're at it, Clayton, tell us whether this man:

[qimg]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/22/Bundesarchiv_Bild_183-L40010%2C_Walter_Rathenau.jpg[/qimg]

would have deserved to be deported, had he even survived to 1933.

Yes. All bald men who smoke cigarettes should be deported. Unless....is that a doobie he's smoking? If he's smoking weed, he can stay. What kind of a question is that?
 
I'm going to have to assume that you don't know who Walter Rathenau then, and why he is relevant to Clayton's statement about Jews and communism.
 
There is the other aspect, too, which is what does Clayton Moore think that German Jews deserved along with why. That is the question he refused to answer.
 
Of course he did. None of these people can answer a direct question. It would tip their hand.

Saggy at least is being more honest. But I'm still waiting for his definition of "Zionist." You'd think he could just C&P the Wiki entry. Maybe he's lazy to boot.
 
I'm inclined simply to keep a score tally of how many time the Dumb Arguments are raised from here on out.

Auschwitz 4 million
Eisenhower/Churchill/de Gaulle
UFO abductions
witchcraft
‘no physical evidence’
‘no documents’
Elie Wiesel
Allies bombed railway lines


Sad to say Nick, but Ken McVay has already thought of that idiotic ploy and has a web site devoted to answering 'dumb' arguments like no bodies, no weapon, no documents, no physical evidence, etc. You'll have to get in line behind him.
 
Perception is key here. I'm sure the 4 or so of us have a large following of member and non member lurkers. I'm positive many more have come and gone after being awakened to the Holocaust lies and fabrications with nary a post.

So you claim that there are a bunch of lurkers who are convinced by your arguments and, newly energized, are out proselytizing for the revisionist cause. Lurkers from other parts of the forum who are not convinced by your (and Saggy's arguments) periodically drop in here to say so. Why isn't that the case for your newly converted revisionist lurkers? (Well established posters from CODOH--like denierbud--who pop in here occasionally are obviously not new converts.)
 
You're just so much smarter than the rest of us, Clayton. Thanks for agreeing to appear here. I feel like I'm seeing the second coming of Christ.

{"Prepare ye the way of the Lord..."}

Dude. Always ready to inject an anti Christian ditty.
And yes, I am much, much smarter than the Holocaust shills.
 
There is the other aspect, too, which is what does Clayton Moore think that German Jews deserved along with why. That is the question he refused to answer.

You play with matches you get burnt. Why is it people think Jews accrued enormous wealth without screwing anyone?
 
So you claim that there are a bunch of lurkers who are convinced by your arguments and, newly energized, are out proselytizing for the revisionist cause. Lurkers from other parts of the forum who are not convinced by your (and Saggy's arguments) periodically drop in here to say so. Why isn't that the case for your newly converted revisionist lurkers? (Well established posters from CODOH--like denierbud--who pop in here occasionally are obviously not new converts.)

I am guess because they understand the implications that for such a Hoax to have taken such a firm grip, that individuals who speak out are likely to suffer repercussions.

I mean its not like it is even a particularly good hoax. Take this recent "slam dunk" trotted out by the industry

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/2011/12/mattognos-fatal-concession-killing-of.html

It revolves around a letter send by one of Gauleiters in the newly acquired territories of Poland saying that 100 000 Poles with TB are about to be exterminated.

Yet if you examine the original document it consists of a genuine first page which discusses the dangers posed by tuberculosis and the coming deportation of Jews from the Gau.
temp2ac.jpg


Then the 2nd page is such a lazy forgery they couldn't even be bothered forging the signature and just chopped the paper off under "Heil Hitler", provides the punch-line of with the use of the word "ausmerzen" or extermination.

temp1rb.jpg


This stuff is so bad, it debunks itself.
 
Dude. Always ready to inject an anti Christian ditty.
And yes, I am much, much smarter than the Holocaust shills.


"The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight."- Mark 1:3
 
Dude. Always ready to inject an anti Christian ditty.
And yes, I am much, much smarter than the Holocaust shills.


Not smart enough to recognize a common quotation from the Bible.

Also not smart enough do any actual research before making your silly claim that the Nazis would have used vacuum asphyxiation instead of lethal gas to exterminate their victims. And not honest enough to admit you were wrong about it.
 
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