Merged General Holocaust denial discussion thread

[Border Reiver]

If we hit him over the head with it enough, it may sink in.

 

[Wroclaw]

Wouldn't hold my breath on that one, either.

 

[Border Reiver]

We can still hit though?

 

[Wroclaw]

I don't see why not.

 

[Robrob]

Liar one

http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org/survivor/strawczynski .html


and liar two
Pesye Schloss

Amazing. Two testimonies shown, just days ago, to be fabrications and utter nonsense fabrications at that.


Now they are cited as if they weren't the same old liars like Simon and Elie.

Pesye Schloss? That would be the 16 year old girl who was led in a group of ten (five were relatives) to a trench in the woods, blindfolded, shot and left for dead in a trench filled with hundreds of courses. A bullet that passed through her mother was lodged in her arm.

While she lay in the trench, a guard stole her shoes. The guard noticed Pesye was still breathing so he shot at her again, hitting her in the leg. Pesye played dead, lying there with her family. Later when she regained consciousness, she joined up with three other survivors (only one of whom was unwounded).

And what "evidence" do the lunatics give of Pesye Schloss "lying"?

They can't believe after murdering hundreds of innocent people, an SS guard would steal shoes.

 

[LemmyCaution]

Yes, that Pesye Schloss. But there is a complicating factor, that being other accounts of the same extermination action that parallel and thus support Pesye's account.

 

[Clayton Moore]

Pesye Schloss? That would be the 16 year old girl who was led in a group of ten (five were relatives) to a trench in the woods, blindfolded, shot and left for dead in a trench filled with hundreds of courses. A bullet that passed through her mother was lodged in her arm.

While she lay in the trench, a guard stole her shoes. The guard noticed Pesye was still breathing so he shot at her again, hitting her in the leg. Pesye played dead, lying there with her family. Later when she regained consciousness, she joined up with three other survivors (only one of whom was unwounded).

And what "evidence" do the lunatics give of Pesye Schloss "lying"?

They can't believe after murdering hundreds of innocent people, an SS guard would steal shoes.

And the beat goes on. You read something and misrepresent a foot with a leg.

Pesye Schloss lies and you manipulate her lie to make it somehow more believable.

Kids don't get shot in the foot and play dead.
Nor do Kids get shot in the leg and play dead.

How can you possibly think your sleight of hand with words makes Pesye's lies believable?

Audacity is the war cry of the Holohoax. A paucity of integrity is the result.

 

[LemmyCaution]

Where did you get the notion that Pesye Schloss "played dead"? Did you "supply" that information? Now you need to cite in Pesye Schloss's testimony, or Kruk's comments, the part in which it is stated that Pesye Schloss "played dead." After you pull this off, you can explain how you know that Pesye Schloss's testimony contains lies.

 

[abaddon]

And the beat goes . You read something and misrepresent a foot with a leg.

Pesye Schloss lies and you manipulate her lie to make it somehow more believable.

Kids don't get shot in the foot and play dead.
Nor do Kids get shot in the leg and play dead.

How can you possibly think your sleight of hand with words makes Pesye's lies believable?

Audacity is the war cry of the Holohoax. A paucity of integrity is the result.

If you were lying on top of the murdered bodies of your shot relatives, what strategy would you adopt?

Would you;
A: try to appear as yet another body, in the morass of bodies

Or

B: rise up Swarzeneger style and kill your assailant


I will guess B would be your choice, but A would be your reality.

 

[LemmyCaution]

You only have to read the passage in Kruk's journal about the Ponar shootings that followed the Great Provocation to know that it is nowhere stated that Pesye Schloss adopted any strategy, the inference in Kruk's account being that the 12-year-old girl passed out after being shot: ". . . the soldier . . . took off her shoes and put a bullet in her foot. She thinks she lay in the grave for no longer than 15 or 20 minutes. When she woke up . . ." In addition to the testimony of 16-year-old Pesye Schloss, Kruk also recorded the testimony of 11-year-old Yudis Trojak and noted that a half dozen survivors of the action all stated that they were shot at in the ditch, where there "lay thousands of dead bodies." Also, "the peasants who brought the people to the hospital tell the same thing." One survivor, presumably Pesye Schloss, "mentions the names of those she saw shot." And, finally, independent of these survivor testimonies, taken in a hospital in Vilna, about 10 km from Ponar, the Polish journalist Sakowicz recorded corroborating details of the pit shootings at Ponar in his diary. Clayton Moore is just playing games here and making ignorant statements over and over, as though repetition of his lies will make them believable.

 

[Cyrix686]

Nothing interesting from Moore today, just errors and some vacuous slogan.

 

[Dogzilla]

Quoting uke2se, but this is addressed to Dogzilla. Yes, maths would be appreciated. Remember it is your claim that the burial and cremation of bodies at Treblinka was 'physically impossible' due to scale. But let's start by setting out some parameters. Remember, no fisking and no trolling. Only a coherent statement of your thesis and argument using the best data you can find is acceptable.

To make a proper calculation, you need quite a few variables. I will remind you about one issue with many variables, without which nothing you say about mass graves or anything else will mean very much.

The identity of the deportees to Treblinka and realistic estimates of the average weight of the victims

This is surely the most critical variable. Just under 30% of the Polish Jewish population was aged under 14 in the 1931 census, as the Polish Jewish population continued to grow (more births than deaths) this percentage would not have changed significantly by 1939.

However, once war starts then lots of factors start raising the percentage of women and children. 300,000 Jews fled from western Poland to eastern Poland, most to Vilnius or to Galicia, some to Bialystok. A disproportionate number of the refugees would have been adult men and some women, with fewer children. By early 1942 there were more women than men in the Warsaw ghetto (source: Samuel Kassow, Who Will Write Our History?).

250,000 of the Treblinka deportees came from the Warsaw ghetto, which had seen more than 40,000 starve to death. Many of the starvation victims were elderly i.e. adults, but a lot were actually men who had become exhausted from time in forced labour camps who were returned 'used up' to the ghetto, where they died. Mothers tried to feed their children before seeing to their own needs. There were also efforts to care for children in eg Janusz Korczak's orphanages. Children died, of course. But on balance the time in the ghetto would have slightly increased the proportion of children still further.

But the biggest increase would have been caused by the fact that able bodied men and women were spared for labour and remained in the ghetto (35,000 legally, close to another 25,000 illegally), while more able bodied men and women fled into the surrounding city (28,000) and 11,000 able bodied men were deported to labour camps via the 'Durchgangslager'. At least 5,000 were shot during the Great Deportation, most of whom were probably adults resisting in various fashions.

The same basic considerations apply to other big ghettos like Radom (40,000+), Czestochowa (40,000) and Kielce (21,000).

All four of these Stadtkreise (urban counties) were closed ghettos which had been sealed off in 1940-41. Their populations were thus a little on the thin side. Together these four cities total nearly half of the 1942 deportees to Treblinka. Kielce, Czestochowa and Radom also left behind large numbers of able bodied adults who had been spared for labour.

The same considerations would have applied to provincial ghettos. The general pattern was for adults to flee east in 1939, or to flee to the forests in 1942, or to be shot, or to be held back for forced labour.

Of course, it's up to you to find data which is reasonable and allows you to offer a realistic set of estimates. Such data can of course be found in the various regional studies on the Radom district, Lublin district, Bialystok district, Warsaw district and the studies of the Warsaw ghetto. I have listed more than a few over the page.

Average heights (and therefore weights) were lower in this era, and there is considerable evidence that Polish Jews were shorter than Germans, which would make perfect sense since Polish Jews were generally extremely poor and lived in an underdeveloped society which had undergone nearly a decade of economic recession. The urban Jewish population would have been as runty as WWI recruits to the Kitchener Army. But it's up to Dogzilla to provide what he thinks are reasonable sources for this, if he doesn't want to accept sources already given in links already provided.

The physical effects of starvation in the Warsaw ghetto including weight loss were studied by Jewish doctors, so there is also some data on weight loss after time had elapsed in the ghetto. Kassow summarises some of it, but there are separate published studies and reprints of the Warsaw ghetto doctors' studies. Again, Dogzilla might like to bear those in mind when coming up with his estimate.

These factors would have been exacerbated by the selection of the strongest, most able-bodied adult males as Sonderkommandos, who were replaced repeatedly in July-September 1942 during the Eberl phase, and replaced less extensively from Sepember onwards under Stangl. Sonderkommandos were generally shot and thrown into the 'Lazarett'. There were also many escapes in the early phase (although escapees tended to be recaptured and shot), and many who tried jumping from trains, again most likely adults. Able-bodied adult males were also hauled off from several transports in 1942 to the Treblinka I labour camp.

So whatever proportion you think is realistic for the number of adults deported to Treblinka (i.e. leaving Warsaw), has to be lowered due to all these factors. That means the bodies needing to be buried are going to be even more disproportionately those of women and children.

Considering the high proportion of childen as well as the overall effects of starvation and the already smaller physiques of Polish Jews (or indeed anyone) in this era compared to modern adults, the average weight of the deportees could have been as low as 35kg. And the linked calculation didn't factor in the last set of issues (high turnover of adult male Sonderkommandos, adult males selected for Treblinka I, train-jumpers) and probably underestimates the proportion of children.

Oh, and your favourite source, Arad? Chapter 8 discusses how bodies were pulled off trains on some occasions before they reached Treblinka. Chapter 12 describes the 'breakdown' under Eberl and how thousands of bodies were littering the forecourt area. Those bodies seem to have been buried outside the death camp area and/or cremated in an early clean-up effort.

So if we proceed using the Hoefle figure of 713,555 deported to Treblinka in 1942, how many of that number made it into the graves and how many were children? What therefore is the average weight of the corpses?

To round things off, I'd say 700,000 corpses with average weights of below 35kg is not an unrealistic rounded off estimate. It seems likely that we can cut whatever figure you had in your head in half.

If you disagree, show us the numbers. Your claim, your burden of proof. The rest of us can just take pot-shots from the sidelines.

Realistic estimates of the average height and weight of the victims is of course one of the variables. It's also the most subjective.

You give alot of reasons why the population of Treblinka victims will be skewed towards women and children. My understanding is that one third of the Treblinka victims were children. That is the assumption under which I'm working. All the various factors raising the percentage of women and children you mentioned--able bodied men and women being exploited for their labor and starved to death or getting shot during the Great Deportation or fleeing to the East in 1939 or into the forests in 1942--make for interesting trivia but they don't change the basics. When it was time to get on the trains to the death camps, one third of the people were children.

(As an aside, if you're suggesting that there were enough able bodied adults fleeing to the east in 1939 and into the forests in 1942 to reduce the average size of the entire Jewish population by any measurable degree, the answer to what you guys think is your got'cha question--if they weren't all murdered, where did they go?--is they fled to the east and into the forests.)

Anyway, the definition of "children" however is very important here. You mention the 1931 census of the Polish Jewish population showed just under 30 percent of the percentage of the population was under 14. If under fourteen is the definition of a child, then the population of "children" are going to be bigger on average than they would be if the definition of "children" is under nine. If starvation in the ghetto was as acute as you say, the birthrate would have been reduced. Starving people will pursue food rather than the other F. We would also expect to see an increase in infant mortality. This would reduce the population of really tiny children thereby increasing the average size of the children even further.

Nonetheless I think the population of "children" should encompass people from newborns to under fourteen, evenly distributed across all ages. That would give us an average "child" of seven years old.

As far as the overall stature of Polish Jews, nobody is going to try and say that mid twentieth century Eastern European Jews were similar in height and weight to a modern Israeli. Everybody was smaller back then and the Jews were even smaller than their non-Jewish neighbors. But arguing that the average size of Polish Jews is going to be even smaller because the "Polish Jews were generally extremely poor and lived in an underdeveloped society which had undergone nearly a decade of economic recession" isn't too convincing.

The main reason is the well documented plunder of the Jewish population' wealth. Germans had established a procedure of checking various body orifices of incoming Jews for hidden jewelry and for removing gold fillings and bridgework from Jews who were gassed. This was not something they did while exterminating the Roma or anybody else. Conducting a body cavity search and inspecting the mouth of every victim for precious metal and then removing it takes time. Let's say it took an average of thirty seconds to inspect and remove all valuables from the bodies of the Jews. 700,000 victims translates into 350,000 minutes total. 350,000 minutes is 5,833 hours. 5,833 hours is 243 days. If we assume the Germans inspected only the bodies of adults, we're still looking at 162 days worth of labor. The Germans aren't going to introduce a process requiring that much time into their already tight schedule unless this process is profitable. If the Germans discovered that they weren't finding any gold or diamonds on the incoming Jews, they would stop looking for it.

Obviously, there were enough Jews coming into the camp with enough hidden wealth to make this worthwhile. Extremely poor people living in underdeveloped societies aren't going to have mouths full of precious metals or diamonds stuffed up the wazoo. And the official economic plunder statistics don't count the wealth that was siphoned off by the SS and Ukrainian guards before it was counted. Besides the unofficial plunder by the guards and the official plunder that was reported to Berlin, there was evidently so much gold and diamonds and currency coming into the camp that when the camp was abandoned, the local peasants found it worth their while to blow the whole landscape up looking for the leftovers!

So we can't make the assumption that poverty caused the average weight of Polish Jews to be substantially lower than that of non-Jews. Another reason the theory of the emaciated Jew is suspect is that the fat on a human body is the only part that will burn without an external fuel source. If bodies were burning, it was the fat that was burning. We also know there were fat people coming into the camps because the eyewitnesses tell us they were instructed to place fat women face down on the griddle to help stoke the flames and to mix fat corpses with emaciated corpses. Obviously, some of the victims were not emaciated.

Also working against your theory of the malnourished ghetto Jew is that, according to the USHMM, we know that the daily calorie intake in the ghetto in 1941 was 1125 calories. That's about what Germans were getting in 1945 on a good day. It's not enough calories to sustain a healthy workforce for any length of time. But it didn't turn everybody in the Warsaw ghetto into the walking skeletons like those we see in the newsreels of Belsen. So if the mass graves at Treblinka couldn't hold seven hundred thousand Belsen people, seven hundred thousand Warsaw ghetto people would never fit.

One last thing: I think you asked me why I think the archeological excavations at the death camps are a joke. I forgot to address that.

As to the studies conducted by the Soviets/Poles right after the war, I believe it's entirely possible that nothing was actually done. The photographs that exist don't show what they purport to show and the descriptions of what they found are too vague to be meaningful. Besides that, in light of the Moscow show trials, Katyn, the Auschwitz four million, Hitler's body, etc., I don't see any reason to believe anything the Soviet/Poles say that isn't corroborated by Western researchers.

As to the modern excavations: Chelmno, I haven't seen the report so I can't comment on it. Soibibor, I haven't seen a final report. Did they even finish that thing? Belzec is best excavation so far but it didn't prove the existence of mass graves large enough to hold the number of bodies necessary. It didn't achieve that goal mainly because it didn't set out to do that. The stated goal was to find the locations of the mass graves so they would avoid disturbing them while burying them under a pile of rocks. What it did was find mass graves scattered higgly piggly all over the place and significant human remains. I was under the impression that the mass graves at all the death camps were relatively orderly and that the SS expended a great deal of energy trying to cover up the evidence of their crimes by burning the bodies. Clearly this is not the case at Belzec. If the evidence underground is that much at variance with the eyewitness testimony, how much confidence can we place on the eyewitness testimony?

 

[LemmyCaution]

Nothing interesting from Moore today. . .

Has there ever been?

It is, actually, somewhat interesting to watch him lie and distort, whilst refusing to answer direct questions that he cannot find answers for.

 

[LemmyCaution]

Also working against your theory of the malnourished ghetto Jew is that, according to the USHMM, we know that the daily calorie intake in the ghetto in 1941 was 1125 calories. That's about what Germans were getting in 1945 on a good day. It's not enough calories to sustain a healthy workforce for any length of time. But it didn't turn everybody in the Warsaw ghetto into the walking skeletons like those we see in the newsreels of Belsen.

Working in favor of Nick's point are Commissioner Auerswald's observations, relating widespread malnutrition in the ghetto to disease and "acute starvation"; studies showing the differential supply of food to groups within the ghetto, with those, the vast majority of the ghetto population, on the bottom of the hierarchy receiving less than 1000 calories a day; and the fact that starvation of ghetto inmates was widespread enough for ghetto Drs. Braude-Hellerowa, Fliederbaum, Apfelbau, Milejkowski, and others, with so many victims at hand, to undertake research during 1942 resulting in publication of The Disease of Starvation: Clinical Research into Starvation Performed in the Warsaw Ghetto.

 

[Clayton Moore]

Where did you get the notion that Pesye Schloss "played dead"? Did you "supply" that information? Now you need to cite in Pesye Schloss's testimony, or Kruk's comments, the part in which it is stated that Pesye Schloss "played dead." After you pull this off, you can explain how you know that Pesye Schloss's testimony contains lies.

Originally Posted by Robrob View Post

Pesye Schloss? That would be the 16 year old girl who was led in a group of ten (five were relatives) to a trench in the woods, blindfolded, shot and left for dead in a trench filled with hundreds of courses. A bullet that passed through her mother was lodged in her arm.

While she lay in the trench, a guard stole her shoes. The guard noticed Pesye was still breathing so he shot at her again, hitting her in the leg. Pesye played dead, lying there with her family. Later when she regained consciousness, she joined up with three other survivors (only one of whom was unwounded).

And what "evidence" do the lunatics give of Pesye Schloss "lying"?

Robrob said she played dead.

I said she couldn't play dead.

 

[Dogzilla]

Revise then, actually debunk the myth.

Of course to do so you actually have to do more than say, "Didn't happen."

Prove your case, show that the grave could not possibly hold what they hold - using math, and/or digging up the graves to determine that they don't exist. Figure out how to discredit a witness in a way that convinces people (free hint: your method of going - "I don't believe it, therefore the person is lying" won't convince a reasonably bright 6 year old).

My position is that the horror of the Holocaust is, if anything, understated by the historical method.

Carry on.

"digging up the graves"?!? You're new to the holocaust, aren't you? You can't investigate these camps by digging because that's desecration. Jewish law says no can do. Look at the Belzec "memorial" to see how far some people will go to prevent "digging up the graves."

You can look at the size of the camps and the number of bodies allegedly buried there and figure out in your head that the alleged capacity exceeds that of any other known mass grave that actually has been dug. But you wouldn't even need to dig. If what happened at these camps actually did happen, it would be visible on the surface. That's why we'll probably see all the death camps Belzeced in the next few years.

 

[LemmyCaution]

Originally Posted by Robrob View Post


Robrob said she played dead.

I said she couldn't play dead.

It will serve your arguments better to go to the sources and not rely on posts in a forum as substitutes. Now, please tell the members of this forum, as I asked you before, where in Kruk's account of Pesye Schloss's testimony it is said or even implied that she played dead. And explain where Pesye Schloss lied and how you know she lied. Stop playing games.

 

[Dogzilla]

Your willful blindness doesn't mean there's no evidence. You have consistently ignored facts and presented well debunked lies to support your fantasy.


Likewise Bigfoot proponents don't have to prove Bigfoot exists, etc... You are the one proposing a CT in contradiction to all the facts. You have to prove your point.


Hydrogen cyanide kills when inhaled. It's a poison. Why would the doors have to be "airtight" when there's overpressure? Other than in your fantasy of course?

Why would the doors of a gas chamber need to be airtight? That's gotta be a stundie. And what's this "overpressure" of which you speak?

"In January or February 1940, 250 Gypsy children from Brno in the Buchenwald concentration camp were used as guinea pigs for testing the Zyklon B gas. On September 3, 1941, around 600 Soviet prisoners of war and 250 sick Polish prisoners were gassed with Zyklon B at Auschwitz camp I; this was the first experiment with the gas at Auschwitz. The experiments lasted more than 20 hours.

According to Rudolf Höss, commandant of Auschwitz, bunker 1 held 800 people, and bunker 2 held 1,200. Once the chamber was full, the doors were screwed shut and solid pellets of Zyklon B were dropped into the chambers through vents in the side walls, releasing the cyanide gas. Those inside died within 20 minutes; the speed of death depended on how close the inmate was standing to a gas vent, according to Höss, who estimated that about one third of the victims died immediately. Johann Kremer, an SS doctor who oversaw the gassings, testified that: "Shouting and screaming of the victims could be heard through the opening and it was clear that they fought for their lives." When they were removed, if the chamber had been very congested, as they often were, the victims were found half-squatting, their skin colored pink with red and green spots, some foaming at the mouth or bleeding from the ears."
[qimg]www://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Majdanek_Komora_Gazowa.JPG[/qimg]
Do you think it mattered if a little gas leaked out that door?

Do you think it mattered if a little gas leaked out that door? A little gas that you just said killed a third of the people instantly? That's gotta be another stundie.

And what are these gas vents Hoess was talking about? The Zyklon B was dropped into wire mesh columns in the gas chambers that were retrofitted for extermination and thrown in through a window in the gas chambers that were designed for extermination from the ground up

 

[Robrob]

Robrob said she played dead.

I said she couldn't play dead.

Here, let's recap what you actually said:

And the beat goes on. You read something and misrepresent a foot with a leg.

In what language did Lithuanian Pesye give her testimony? It might interest you to know that in the Slavic language, "foot" and "leg" are the same word (нога).

Pesye Schloss lies and you manipulate her lie to make it somehow more believable.

You evidence being argument from incredulity, e.g. SS executioners wouldn't stoop to steal shoes off a corpse.

Kids don't get shot in the foot and play dead.

The ones that live do. Of course it's moot since she was unconscious.

Nor do Kids get shot in the leg and play dead.

Of course after seeing her whole family executed, being shot in the arm and in the leg, she had two options didn't she: move and die or play dead and live. If she did, she gambled and lived. There are probably many more who made the same gamble but were discovered and died anyway. Of course the point is moot as her testimony states, "when she woke up..."

How can you possibly think your sleight of hand with words makes Pesye's lies believable?

Says the loon who asserts as unassailable truth; SS murders would never deign to steal shoes off a corpse or a wounded child is incapable of playing dead? Likewise with your insistence it's "physically impossible" for soldiers to have thrown an infant in the air as machine gun target practice. You seem to have a different frame of physical reference than normal people.

Audacity is the war cry of the Holohoax. A paucity of integrity is the result.

Pot, kettle, black.

 

[Clayton Moore]

Why would the doors of a gas chamber need to be airtight? That's gotta be a stundie. And what's this "overpressure" of which you speak?




Do you think it mattered if a little gas leaked out that door? A little gas that you just said killed a third of the people instantly? That's gotta be another stundie.

And what are these gas vents Hoess was talking about? The Zyklon B was dropped into wire mesh columns in the gas chambers that were retrofitted for extermination and thrown in through a window in the gas chambers that were designed for extermination from the ground up

Makes you wonder how Zyklon B was handled/dealt with when used for fumigation?


Even if it wasn't odorless don't you have to inhale a gas to smell it?

How could the Sonderkommando know it was safe to enter the alleged gas chambers if the "poison gas" was odorless?