Merged General Holocaust denial discussion thread

[Corsair 115]

That said, there is only one question I'd like you to answer - what is the name of one credible Jewish witness to the holohoax? Then, if you'd like to respond and for the elucidation of the masses, what did this witness testify to and how do you know the testimony is accurate?

That said, there is only one question I'd like you to answer - what is the name of one credible witness to this fantastical worldwide Jewish conspiracy of yours which controls the media, academia, and everything else? Then, if you'd like to respond and for the education of the rest of us, what did this witness testify to and how do you know the testimony is accurate?

I'm still waiting, Saggy.

 

[LemmyCaution]

For everyone's edification, it might be fun if LemmyCaution, who doesn't read Russian, Polish or German, identifies all the titles he personally owns and has read from this list. Knowing Lemmy as I do, it will be quite a few. Indeed knowing him, he will probably add quite a few titles mentioned above to his Amazon wishlist and then curse me for alerting him to yet more interesting reading he can do.

It would also be interesting to see how many of the titles have been read by you, Saggy, as well as by Clayton Moore and Dogzilla. Then we can see whether you've actually read any titles that discuss witnesses, and work out how many were discussed. That number will, of course, be greater than one.

Ok, Nick, I will go along, stipulating first that I am one of the usual nitwits, not a scholar of this history, I work fulltime, run a fairly intense car racing season, and also have been reading "older" works on the Third Reich and the genocide, thus the low score; second that there are some books published since 2000 not on the list, some noteworthy few I've added to my own list below; third that I've counted foreign language titles the English translations of which I've read; and fourth that you have once again busted my book-buying budget with a serious number of these titles! (I was very gladdened to see the name of a classmate of mine from undergraduate years as an author of one of the books on your list, one, alas, I do not have in the basement library yet . . . )

From your list:
Allen, Michael Thad, The Business of Genocide. The SS, Slave Labor and the Concentration Camps. Chapel Hill, NC, 2002.
Aly, Götz, Hitlers Volksstaat. Raub, Rassenkrieg und nationaler Sozialismus. Frankfurt am Main, 2005

Angrick, Andrej and Witte, Peter, Die ‘Endlösung’ in Riga. Ausbeutung und Vernichtung 1941-1944. Wissenschaftliche Buchgesellschaft: Darmstadt, 2006

Arad, Yitzhak, The Holocaust in the Soviet Union. Lincoln: University of Nebraska Press, 2009

Bankier, David (ed), Probing the depths of German antisemitism: German society and the persecution of the Jews, 1933-1941. New York: Berghahn, 2000

Bauer, Yehuda, The Death of the Shtetl. New Haven: Yale University Press, 2009

Baxter, Ian, The SS of Treblinka, Stroud: The History Press, 2010.
Bender, Sara, The Jews of Bialystok during World War II and the Holocaust. London, 2008

Blatman, Daniel, The Death Marches: The Final Phase of Nazi Genocide. Cambridge, MA: Harvard University Press, 2011

Blood, Philip, Hitler’s Bandit Hunters. The SS and the Nazi Occupation of Europe. Dulles, VA, 2006

Bloxham, Donald, Genocide on Trial. War Crimes Trials and the Formation of Holocaust History and Memory. Oxford, 2001

Brandon, Ray and Lower, Wendy (eds) The Shoah in Ukraine, Indianapolis: Indiana University Press, 2008

Browning, Christopher R., Nazi Policy, Jewish Workers, German Killers. Cambridge, 2000

Browning, Christopher R., Remembering Survival: Inside a Nazi Slave-Labor Camp. New York: Norton, 2010

Cesarani, David, Eichmann. His Life and Crimes. London, 2004

Cole, Tim, Holocaust City. The Making of a Jewish Ghetto. London, 2003

Corni, Gustavo, Hitler’s Ghettos: Voices from a Beleaguered Society, 1939-1944. London: Bloomsbury, 2002

Dean, Martin, Robbing the Jews. The Confiscation of Jewish Property in the Holocaust, 1933-1945. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 2008

Desbois, Patrick, The Holocaust by Bullets, New York: Palgrave Macmillan, 2008

Diner, Dan, Beyond the Conceivable: Studies on Germany, Nazism, and the Holocaust (Berkeley, 2000)

Dwork, Deborah and Van Pelt, Robert, Holocaust: A History. New York, 2002

Earl, Hilary, The Nuremberg SS-Einsatzgruppen Trial, 1945-1958: atrocity, law and history. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 2009

Ehrenreich, Eric, The Nazi Ancestral Proof: Genealogy, Racial Science, and the Final Solution. Bloomington: Indiana University Press, 2007

Engelking-Boni, Barbara and Leociak, Jacek, The Warsaw ghetto: a guide to the perished city. New Haven: Yale University Press, 2009

Epstein, Catherine, Model Nazi: Arthur Greiser and the Occupation of Western Poland. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 2010

Evans, Richard, The Coming of the Third Reich, London, 2003

Friedländer, Saul, The Years of Extermination: Nazi Germany and the Jews, 1939-1945. New York: HarperCollins, 2007

Fritz, Stephen G., Ostkrieg: Hitler’s War of Extermination in the East. University Press of Kentucky, 2011

Fritzsche, Peter, Life and death in the Third Reich. Cambridge, MA, 2008

Gellately, Robert and Nathan Stolzfus (eds), Social Outsiders in Nazi Germany. Princeton: Princeton University Press, 2001

Gellately, Robert, Backing Hitler: Consent and Coercion in Nazi Germany. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 2001

Gigliotti, Simone, The Train Journey: Transit, Captivity, and Witnessing in the Holocaust. Oxford: Berghahn, 2009

Gilbert, Martin, Kristallnacht: Prelude to Destruction. London: HarperCollins, 2006

Gross, Jan, Neighbors. Princeton: Princeton University Press, 2001

Hebert, Valerie, Hitler’s Generals on Trial: The Last War Crimes Tribunal at Nuremberg. Lawrence: University of Kansas Press, 2010

Herf, Jeffrey, The Jewish Enemy: Nazi Propaganda during World War II and the Holocaust. Cambridge, MA, 2006

Horwitz, Gordon, Ghettostadt: Lodz and the making of a Nazi city. Cambridge, MA: Harvard University Press, 2008

Jews in France during World War II / Renée Poznanski. Hanover, N.H. : University Press of New England in Association with the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum ; Waltham, Mass. : Brandeis University Press, 2001

Kassow, Samuel, Who Will Write Our History? Rediscovering a Hidden Archive from the Warsaw Ghetto. London, 2007

Kay, Alex, Exploitation, Resettlement, Mass Murder: Political and Economic Planning for German Occupation Policy in the Soviet Union, 1940-1941, Oxford: Berghahn, 2006.

Kola, Andrzej. Bełżec: the Nazi Camp for Jews in Light of Archaeological Sources: Excavations 1997-1999. Warsaw and Washington: The Council for the Protection of Memory of Combat and Martyrdom and the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum, 2000.

Koonz, Claudia, The Nazi Conscience. Cambridge, MA: Belknap Press of Harvard University, 2003

Krakowski, Shmuel, Chelmno: a small village in Europe: the first Nazi extermination camp. Jerusalem: Yad Vashem, 2009

Kruk, Herman, The last days of the Jerusalem of Lithuania. Chronicles from the Vilna Ghetto and the camps 1939-1944, Yale University Press, New Haven/London 2002

Kühne, Thomas, Belonging and Genocide: Hitler’s Community, 1918-1945. New Haven: Yale University Press, 2010

Kulka, Otto Dov and Jäckel, Eberhard (eds), Die Juden in den geheimen NS-Stimmungsberichten 1933-1945. Düsseldorf: Droste Verlag, 2004

Levin, Itamar, Walls Around: The Plunder of Warsaw Jewry During World War II and its Aftermath., New York: Greenwood, 2004.

Longerich, Peter, Holocaust. The Nazi Persecution and Murder of the Jews. Oxford, 2010

Longerich, Peter, The Unwritten Order: Hitler’s Role in the Final Solution. Stroud: Tempus, 2001

Lower, Wendy, Nazi Empire-Building and the Holocaust in the Ukraine. Chapel Hill: University of North Carolina Press, 2005

Marcuse, Harold, Legacies of Dachau. The Uses and Abuses of a Concentration Camp, 1933-2001. Cambridge University Press, Cambridge, 2001

Margolis, Rachel and Tobias, Jim G. (eds), Die geheimen Notizen des K. Sakowicz. Dokumente zur Judenvernichtung in Ponary. Nürnberg, 2003, in English as Sakowicz, Kazimierz, Ponary Diary, 1941-1943. A Bystander’s Account of a Mass Murder. New Haven: Yale University Press, 2005

Mazower, Mark, Hitler’s Empire: How the Nazis Ruled Europe (New York, 2008),

Michman, Dan, The Emergence of Jewish Ghettos During the Holocaust, Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 2011

Miron, Guy (ed), The Yad Vashem Encyclopedia of Ghettos During the Holocaust, Jerusalem: Yad Vashem, 2010, 2 volumes.

Mommsen, Hans (ed), The Third Reich Between Vision and Reality: New Perspectives on German History, 1918-1945. Oxford: Berg, 2001

Overy, Richard J., Interrogations: The Nazi Elite in Allied Hands, 1945. Harmondsworth, 2001

Paulsson, Gunnar S., Secret city : the hidden Jews of Warsaw, 1940-1945. New Haven : Yale University Press, c2002.

Pegelow, Thomas, The language of Nazi genocide: linguistic violence and the struggle of Germans of Jewish ancestry. Cambridge, 2009

Pelt, Robert Jan van, The Case for Auschwitz. Evidence from the Irving Trial. Bloomington, IN, 2002

Poprzeczny, Joseph, Odilo Globocnik, Hitler’s Man in the East. London: McFarland & Company, 2004

Porat, Dina, The Fall of a Sparrow: The Life and Times of Abba Kovner (Stanford, California: Stanford University Press, 2010)

Rieger, Berndt, Creator of Nazi Death Camps. The Life of Odilo Globocnik. London: Vallentine Mitchell, 2007

Snyder, Timothy, Bloodlands: Europe between Hitler and Stalin. London: The Bodley Head, 2010

Steinweis, Alan E., Studying the Jew: scholarly antisemitism in Nazi Germany. Cambridge, MA, 2006

Steinweis, Alan, Kristallnacht 1938, Cambridge, MA: Belknap Press, 2009.

Tooze, Adam, The Wages of Destruction. The Making and Breaking of the Nazi Economy. London, 2006

Trunk, Isaiah, Lodz Ghetto. A History. Bloomington, 2006

Westermann, Edward B., Hitler’s Police Battalions. Enforcing Racial War in the East. Kansas, 2005

Wildt, Michael, Generation des Unbedingten. Das Führungskorps des Reichssicherheitshauptamtes. Hamburg, 2002

Wittmann, Rebecca, Beyond Justice: The Auschwitz Trial. Cambridge, MA, 2005

Words to outlive us : eyewitness accounts from the Warsaw ghetto / edited by Michal Grynberg ; translated and with an introduction by Philip Boehm. London : Granta, 2003. xii, 493 p : ill,maps ; 24 cm. D810.J4 W92


Zimmerman, Joshua D. (ed.), Contested Memories: Poles and Jews during the Holocaust and Its Aftermath (New Brunswick, NJ, 2003)


My additions:
Balberyskski, Mendel, Stronger Than Iron: The Destruction of Vilna Jewry, 1941-1945: An Eyewitness Account. Gefen, 2010
Cesarani, David, Becoming Eichmann: Rethinking the Life, Crimes, and Trial of a “Desk Murderer.” Da Capo, 2004
Cymlich, Israel, and Oskar Strawczynski, Escaping Hell in Treblinka. Yad Vashem, 2007.
Hilberg, Raul, The Destruction of the European Jews, 3 volumes. 2003 edition.
Greif, Gideon, We Wept Without Tears: Testimonies of the Jewish Sonderkommando from Auschwitz. Yale, 2005.
Kershaw, Ian, The End: The Defiance and Desturction of Hitler’s Germnay, 1944-1955. Penguin, 2011.
Margolis, Rachel, A Partisan from Vilna. Academic Studies Press, 2010
Megargee, Geoffrey P., War of Annihilation: Combat and Genocide on the Eastern Front, 1941. Bowman & Littlefield, 2006
Schelvis, Jules, Sobibor: A History of a Nazi Death Camp. Berg in association with the USHMM, 2007 (English)
Schneiderman, S.L., ed., & Susan Lee Pentlin, The Diary of Mary Berg: Growing Up in the Warsaw Ghetto. OneWorld Oxford, 2007.
Schmidt, Ulf, Karl Brandt, The Nazi Doctor: Medicine and Power in the Third Reich. Hambledon Continuum, 2007.
Schumann, Dirk, Political Violence in the Weimar Republic, 1918-1933: The First for the Streets and Civil War, Berghahn, 2009.
Shneer, David, Through Soviet Jewish Eyes: Photography, War, and the Holocaust. Rutgers University Press, 2011.
Struk, Janina, Photographying the Holocaust: Interpretations of the Evidence. I.B. Tauris, 2004.
Sutton, Karen, The Massacre of the Jews of Lithuania. Gefen, 2008.
Thacker, Toby, Joseph Goebbels: Life and Death. Palgrave, 2009.
Van Voren, Robert, Undigested Past: The Holocaust in Lithuania. Editions Rodopi, 2011.
Venezia, Shlomo, Inside the Gas Chambers: Eight Months in the Sonderkommando of Auschwitz. Polity, in association with the USHMM, 2009 (French edition 2007)

 

[LemmyCaution]

Come on, Clayton. What lies did Pesye Schloss tell, and how do you know she lied? Man up. Stop hiding.

 

[Dogzilla]

Yeah, well, bang up job you guys did in "the 'Nam."

Nobody hates America's wars of aggression more than I do. And the debacle in Vietnam is a stain on America's honor that will never be erased. I don't even agree with alot of what CM says.

But for you to insult the men and women who fought in that war because they were drafted and didn't have the connections/rich parents to get them out of duty--or even those who willing went because they thought it was the right thing to do--is really low budget. It's the kind of offensive comment that makes me ask myself 'why couldn't it have been six million and one?'

 

[Dogzilla]

I just don't see why this website should be an outlet for their open hatred of Jews. As there seems to be nothing to discuss, and as they can't give an argument for their stupid beliefs, I think the rational thing to do is to lock the thread until they come up with an argument that hasn't already been debunked and isn't a logical fallacy, but an actual bonafied argument backed by a proper interpretation of evidence. Until such a time, this thread serves no purpose other than allow the Jew haters an outlet for their hatred and an (albeit minuscule) opportunity to infect others with their disgusting beliefs.

If you want to move the discussion forward, why don't you stop ignoring my parameters and tell me that you agree with them or not? They've all been pretty basic stuff so far. All I'm looking for right now is confirmation that what I say the historians say happened is what you say the historians say happened. Like 700,000 bodies, right? Or, a totenlager that's 200 x 250 meters, right?

We can skip to basic physics and biology if you prefer. When you dig a hole in the ground, the dirt that is displaced from the hole must go somewhere. True or false? People require food and water to survive even if a gun is pointed at their head. True or false?

We can get to the complicated ones if you like those better. Sixty to seventy percent of the human body is water. True or false? Fat is the only part of a human body that will burn without an external fuel source. True or false.

Let's try some of the absurd parameters. People cannot be melted and poured into a hole, right? Surely there's nothing stopping you from agreeing with me on that one, is there?

 

[TSR]

Let's try some of the absurd parameters.

.
No, let's try you make a point rooted in something other than your fantasy, cite whatever evidence you feel supports that point, and don't run away when it is shown that your point is, indeed, based on nothing but your need that it be so.

That's how discussions like this move forward, not by a lame and transparent attempt to set up an elaborate falsus in uno 'gotcha!'
.

 

[Gwynpaine]

ARTHUR BUTZ;correspondence

In the last few years I have corresponded with various public figures about various doctrina non grata. I intend to unload some of their replies Out There. Any reply to a perfect stranger may fairly be treated as a public act, especially if it does its author no discredit. Here is a brief exchange from 2007 with Arthur Butz. Regular contributors will see it as a distraction from their current concern. But not all readers, I hope, are regular contributors

Dear Arthur Butz

In your powerfully argued book Hoax you write:

-

--------------- Other documents are 003-L, a letter by SS General Katzmann, speaking of 434,329 resettled (ausgesiedelt) Jews of southern Poland as having been sonderbehandelt, and NO-246, a letter from Artur Greiser to Himmler dated May 1, 1942, asking permission to give Sonderbehandlung, specified as getting them "locked up" (abgeschlossen), to about 100,000 Jews in the Warthegau (part of annexed Poland). Greiser was sentenced to death by a Polish court on July 20, 1946, despite the intervention of the Pope on his behalf. There is also a letter by Lohse, which is discussed on page 243.[217] -------------------

This seems to be a mistake, which must have often been noted. If Browning as below is quoting correctly it is not Jews who are being locked up but the matter of special treatment that is being concluded.


BROWNING writes:

Nürnberg Document NO-246, Greiser to Himmler, 1.5.42. (Die von Ihnen im Einvernehmen mit dem Chef des Reichssicherheitshauptamtes SS-Obergruppenführer Heydrich genehmigte Aktion der Sonderbehandlung von rund 100,000 Juden in meinem Gaugebiet wird in den nächsten 2-3 Monaten abgeschlossen werden können.)

In this letter, Greiser went on to ask if the Sonderkommando employed for the Jewish action could then be used to free the Warthegau from the threat posed by Poles with "open tuberculosis." Himmler subsequently gave Greiser permissions to subject tubercular Poles deemed incurable to "special treatment." NO-249, Greiser to Himmler, 21.11.42. ----------------

You must have been asked about this before. Have you been able to re-edit this book? Do you have a non-incriminating explanation for this instance of Sonderbehandlung?
Yours faithfully
[Gwynpaine]



Dear Mr [Gwynpaine]
I haven't had time to look this up in Browning's book, or in the
Poliakov & Wulf book I cited. I must have made photocopies of the
relevant pages of the latter, but I can't find them.

This matter has not, in my recollection, been noted earlier.

Assuming Browning gives the right text, it appears that I made an
error. However, the passage is not "incriminating" in the revised
interpretation. All it says, in that case, is that the action will be
wrapped up in 2-3 months.

Best regards,
A.R. Butz -
[email 7 Nov 2007]



Dear Arthur Butz
Thank you for your reply. I shall not take any more of your time. The problem remains, however, what this three-month operation actually was to be, given that it was not ‘locking up’
Yours [ Gwyne Paine]

------------------------


( In Greiser’s letter, which Butz has misremembered , the permission being asked of Himmler was not to give Sonderbehandlung to Jews but to exterminate (auszmerzen) infectious TB patients. Assuming his May 1 letter to be genuine, it is remarkable that Greiser, who had often tangled with the Vatican, should ever have imagined that a of killing tens of thousands of Polish Catholics might have escaped the angry attention of the priestly hierarchy. It was not until November the 18th, nearly seven months after he first made his “urgent” suggestion, that his top health official sought to persuade him that murder would be bad public relations. Not until then were they ready to screen the population. Dr Karl Blome ‘s November 18th letter, urging Greiser to sequester the contagious TB patients in camps, apparently helped to earn Blome an acquittal at the Doctors’ Trial). I have not so far seen a copy of the June letter in which Himmler is said by Greiser (in the November letter N0-249) to have granted permission, nor have I yet seen a facsimile of the German original of this N0-249.)





Butz is a man of great ability. Having founded a sect, however, he would like to persuade himself that he had launched a movement. In the Sep 11 2011 issue Inconvenient History he has an article:


http://www.revblog.codoh.com/2011/09/two-cutting-edge-works-of-holocaust-revisionism/#more-1607


in which he bravely surveys the cutting edge Bewegung. Since his ablest follower has been harassed into silence by persecutors, Butz has to fall back on the not-so-recent work of Mattogno and Crowell when casting about for intelligent disciples. But Mattogno is not always intelligent, and Crowell has never been a disciple. Crowell in fact is a sheep in wolves’ clothing. The original doctrine of Butz and Faurisson was that the genocide and the gas chambers were “one and the same lie” (Faurisson). That view appeals easily to aggrieved German nationalists who conceive of “the Jews” as a ubiquitous power who largely brought their persecution on themselves. There were other revisionists, who doubted or disbelieved in the gas chamber program simply because it is too monstrous to be true - as well as making no practical or psychological sense. This latter belief was also the official view of the Allies at the end of 1942, and it remained so as long as they relied on the best intelligence available. Oversimplified, (life is short) the official Allied belief was: genocide, yes; gas chambers, nonsense. Crowell’s line, under his wolve’s clothing, is even less revisionistic: genocide, yes; gas chambers open to reasonable doubt.


Butz complains that Crowell has construed the Hoax as a myth and downplayed the Jewish character its origins. But the success of the deception is what needs to be accounted for, not its genesis. A sustained rumour is explained not by its point of origin but by the conditions which sustain it; an atrocity rumour could not develop into a myth unless it matched some basic facts of experience; and a prisoners’ myth could not solidify into an official myth unless it enjoyed unopposed backing of real powers and commanded real belief among their agents. Obviously a gigantic “hoax” can work only if very few truly know the lie. Having knowledge of a lie is something radically different from having a strong disposition to believe weak evidence. The truly knowledgeable people would have to be those involved in liberating the eastern camps while serving a power with an unrivalled capacity for falsifying history. A former prisoner- nomenklatura gentile such as Hermann Langbein would have to be in the know; a Zionist lawyer like Fritz Bauer need not. Possibly the early American Dachau trials might be characterised as what Butz chooses to call a “Jewish festival”, but they had little to do with gas chamber legend; the early British trials played a bigger role. The most significant figure in those British trials, and also in the Hoess confession itself, was not Vrba’s cousin Vera Atkins nee Rosenberg, whom Butz highlights, but the gentile Gerald Draper whom Faurisson reflexively suspected of being Jewish. Up to around the end of 1945, British officialdom was more influenced by Soviet propaganda than by the WRB report. To the (large) extent that IMT was driven by Realpolik, the dominant and shared motive of the imperial rivals in 1945 was to demonise the German collectivity , to which end they readily assimilated lurid propaganda atrocities with real ones. To the extent that IMT was driven by the high ideals of the time, the dominant motive was not to punish a Jewish genocide but to criminalize aggressive war.


Jews of all persuasions - Zionist, Stalinist, democratic, patriotic - being the foremost targets of the Third Reich, were of course the most disposed to believe the worst of a regime which, even when judged without wartime hysteria, was quite ghastly enough. But Gentile interrogators, even anti-Semitic ones, could readily believe the basic features of WRB report when they read it, because masses of survivors transferred to Belsen had already told a similar story; because masses of Jews had been slaughtered (as Jews) in some war zones; and because masses of deported Jews had vanished along with the Yiddish world that Hitler destroyed. In addition, those functionaries will advance most rapidly who sincerely believe what their masters would like to be believed. That is a basic feature of all systems of power. In the east of course they could only prosper if they followed the party line.




This is not to deny that Zionism has become a great and malignant influence, or was as capable as any other political force of fabricating evidence. It is not to deny there was a big Zionist input into the WRB report, into British field intelligence in postwar Germany, and into the IMT prosecution. But Zionism would be a paper tiger if it did not serve ends more powerful than its own.
---------------------

 

[Saggy]

Butz is a man of great ability. Having founded a sect, however, he would like to persuade himself that he had launched a movement.

Why indulge in such idiocy?

A sustained rumour is explained not by its point of origin but by the conditions which sustain it;

The holohoax was never a 'sustained rumor'. It didn't originate in the camps, it was dreamed up by New York Zionists and their counterparts in Europe. They had the New York Times at their disposal and they used it prodigiously, as is documented in Heddesheimer's book in the case of WW I and Butz's book for WW II. They were publishing article about the slaughter of the Jews in NY while the Jews in the camps were unaware of this idiocy. You can see for yourself, as Yad Vashem has been kind enough to document, for example, here ....

http://www1.yadvashem.org/exhibitions/album_auschwitz/index.html

This is not to deny that Zionism has become a great and malignant influence, or was as capable as any other political force of fabricating evidence. It is not to deny there was a big Zionist input into the WRB report, into British field intelligence in postwar Germany, and into the IMT prosecution. But Zionism would be a paper tiger if it did not serve ends more powerful than its own.
---------------------

Zionism as backed by the Rothchilds and world wide Jewry is powerful enough in its own right, and it also serves interests more powerful than its own. It's a marriage made in hell.

 

[A'isha]

Why indulge in such idiocy?

That's a good question, Saggy. Why do you indulge in such idiocy?

They were publishing article about the slaughter of the Jews in NY while the Jews in the camps were unaware of this idiocy.

Yes, if only the Nazis would have been kind enough to allow the Jews they rounded up and imprisoned in concentration and death camps in Central and Eastern Europe to get their regular deliveries of their subscriptions to the New York Times, the whole "holocaust" fiction would have come crashing down.

 

[Border Reiver]

Zionism as backed by the Rothchilds and world wide Jewry is powerful enough in its own right, and it also serves interests more powerful than its own. It's a marriage made in hell.

So powerful, yet completely unable to eliminate anti-semitism, persecution, pogroms, the holocaust, etc.

You'd almost think that such an organization was a hoax.

 

[Wroclaw]

But for you to insult the men and women who fought in that war because they were drafted and didn't have the connections/rich parents to get them out of duty--or even those who willing went because they thought it was the right thing to do--is really low budget. It's the kind of offensive comment that makes me ask myself 'why couldn't it have been six million and one?'

Really? You want to do this?

Maybe now you get some idea of how freaking offensive YOU people are. You piss on the graves of the dead. How honorable is that?

And by that last bit up there you tip your hand a bit much. You find what I say offensive, so you link my being offensive to my being Jewish.

Nice work.

 

[R.A.F.]

Maybe now you get some idea of how freaking offensive YOU people are. You piss on the graves of the dead. How honorable is that?

I would not use to word honorable to describe saggy. Irrational, yes...racist, yes...ignorant, yes...pompous ass, yes...

 

[Multivac]

The term Holocaust denial is just hater crap.

Aren't you denying that the holoaust happened? Surely this is holocaust denial.

Personally, I don't hate holocaust deniers. I just don't understand how they can deny the overwhelming archive of evidence about the holocaust.

 

[R.A.F.]

Zionism as backed by the Rothchilds and world wide Jewry is powerful enough in its own right, and it also serves interests more powerful than its own. It's a marriage made in hell.

If they are so powerful, then why are you allowed to continue "exposing" them?

Why haven't they payed you a "friendly" visit, and instructed you in the ways of the world...in other words, why haven't you been silenced??


Guess they really don't care who knows about their "diabolical plans"...it's as if they don't even exist.

 

[MaxMurx]

Just a question of procedure

I have a simple question: "Sonderbehandlung" like other words are said to have been coded message words, the orders for extermination only being transmitted orally and never in a written clear text form.
Assume that you are the last station in the chain of command and you would receive orally an order to exterminate millions of people, however what you are ordered sounds like: "Treat them the special way." How can you make sure that This order came from a competent position of the command chain and not from any other idiot with a pathological hate towards Jews or someone cheating you? And how can you protect yourself from the possibility that after you have done your work and exterminated Millions of human beings, the others say: "With "special treatment" we meant a special hair wash procedure, you idiot. You're the only one to blame and necessary to be prosecuted!". Transmission of encrypted orders by vocal means is not so easy as it looks like, in particular if for the code regular terms of the language are used which could also have their normal meaning. Or do I have a problem of understanding? Could you please explain the procedure of the orders being transmitted from Berlin to Poland?

 

[Saggy]

I just don't understand how they can deny the overwhelming archive of evidence about the holocaust.

The reason we can deny the overwhelming archive of evidence is that it is all crap.

So, Yad Vashem can supply the names of 50,000 victims/witnesses whatever of the holohoax.

However, respected (if not loved) holohoax scholar Nick Terry cannnot produce the name of ONE credible Jewish witness. Why not? Because all the witnesses either did not witness the hoax by their own accounts, or are obvious pathological liars. It's that simple.

Yad Vashem director Yehuda Bauer wrote that Filip Meuller is the only person to see the Jewish people die and live to tell about it. That is, there is in Bauer's estimation only ONE credible Jewish witness. Now, read Meuller's book to see what complete crap it is.

Nick Terry can do no better than Bauer.

 

[Dave Rogers]

I have a simple question: "Sonderbehandlung" like other words are said to have been coded message words, the orders for extermination only being transmitted orally and never in a written clear text form.
Assume that you are the last station in the chain of command and you would receive orally an order to exterminate millions of people, however what you are ordered sounds like: "Treat them the special way."

You've departed from your premise, which was that the code words were used in written messages but that clear and simple orders were relayed orally. What you were ordered would therefore look like "Treat them the special way" on the written orders, but there would also be a senior SS officer handing you the orders and saying to you "Remember, 'Treat them in the special way' means 'kill them all and dispose of all evidence of the bodies'."

I'm not a Holocaust scholar, but this seems very obvious to me.

How can you make sure that This order came from a competent position of the command chain and not from any other idiot with a pathological hate towards Jews or someone cheating you? And how can you protect yourself from the possibility that after you have done your work and exterminated Millions of human beings, the others say: "With "special treatment" we meant a special hair wash procedure, you idiot. You're the only one to blame and necessary to be prosecuted!".

You can't. That's the whole point; if nothing is in writing, the people ordering the exterminations can pretend they never ordered them if it suits them to do so.

Transmission of encrypted orders by vocal means is not so easy as it looks like, in particular if for the code regular terms of the language are used which could also have their normal meaning. Or do I have a problem of understanding?

No, you have a problem of consistency. If you start from the premise that the orders were disguised when written down but that the actual orders were transmitted orally, you can't jump from there straight to the presumption that the oral transmission was also disguised.

Could you please explain the procedure of the orders being transmitted from Berlin to Poland?

An SS officer on a train?

Dave

 

[Wroclaw]

Or do I have a problem of understanding?

I'm gonna go with this one.

 

[Dave Rogers]

Personally, I don't hate holocaust deniers.

Remind me, are "hate" and "despise" different?

Dave

 

[Nick Terry]

I have a simple question: "Sonderbehandlung" like other words are said to have been coded message words, the orders for extermination only being transmitted orally and never in a written clear text form.
Assume that you are the last station in the chain of command and you would receive orally an order to exterminate millions of people, however what you are ordered sounds like: "Treat them the special way." How can you make sure that This order came from a competent position of the command chain and not from any other idiot with a pathological hate towards Jews or someone cheating you? And how can you protect yourself from the possibility that after you have done your work and exterminated Millions of human beings, the others say: "With "special treatment" we meant a special hair wash procedure, you idiot. You're the only one to blame and necessary to be prosecuted!". Transmission of encrypted orders by vocal means is not so easy as it looks like, in particular if for the code regular terms of the language are used which could also have their normal meaning. Or do I have a problem of understanding? Could you please explain the procedure of the orders being transmitted from Berlin to Poland?

Sonderbehandlung was the standard euphemism for extrajudicial execution used by the SS from late 1939/early 1940 onwards. It simply meant execution. Enough documents survive which "decode" this without needing a non-documentary sources to prove that it meant, execution. The method was not specified, so it could mean hanging, shooting or gassing.

Eventually, the term migrated from the SS to the Wehrmacht and civil administration in occupied Russia, so Army units would write reports saying that such-and-such a Russian was a bad boy and a partisan, then end the text part saying 'he was sonderbehandelt', and then the concluding statistical table of arrests and fates would say 'Exekutionen', for executions.

About a thousand SS men and several thousand other people confirmed after the war that Sonderbehandlung meant killing, but their testimony isn't necessary to prove this. You only need other contemporary documents, eg the concentration camp list of file codes for different types of death, which includes Sonderbehandlung as one of them.

So when there's a document written on 29 January 1943 referring to Krematorium II at Auschwitz speaking of 'simultaneous cremation with special treatment' (gleichzeitiger Kremierung mit Sonderbehandlung) in reference to the power supply then it's pretty clear what was meant. Especially since the same day, the same crematorium was described in another document as possessing a 'Vergasungskeller' (gassing cellar).

As Sonderbehandlung meant simply 'execution' it was used more widely than simply to refer to executions in the process of extermination. Orders for extermination were indeed generally passed on orally, although some survive (eg Himmler ordering the destruction of the Pinsk ghetto in October 1942) and there are numerous documented retrospective references to extermination orders/intentions.