Merged General Holocaust denial discussion thread

[Saggy]

Why did you dance around such a simple question Saggy?

There are a million and one simple questions with simple answers that I don't know. I don't know the numbers of prisoners in the camps beyond 10,000 - 100,000 and I'm not interested enough to google it up. I'm generally not interested in the details of the history. I was once, but no more. Now, what is interesting to me is how such a ridiculous hoax can be 'believed' by serious people. Even as a kid seeing the newsreels of the dead and dying camp prisoners, I experienced cognitive dissonance from the appearance of the emaciated prisoners, which was not consistent with being gassed. And, even as a kid I was suspicious of the 'gas chambers', my only exposure to the propaganda being Hollywood movies, and somehow the depictions of gas chamber executions, the one I remember vaguely showed the gas coming in through the shower heads, never produced a suspension of disbelief, even though my doubts were never explicitly expressed. Now, come to find out it was all a macabre hoax. That is interesting.

Now what interests me is the hoax, not the history.

 

[MG1962]

There are a million and one simple questions with simple answers that I don't know. I don't know the numbers of prisoners in the camps beyond 10,000 - 100,000 and I'm not interested enough to google it up.

So even though the size of a camp might be a factor in why people saw or didn't see the things you expect, you dont care

 

[Wroclaw]

I don't enjoy reading off google books, if you want to send me a pdf I will flick through it, but that is all I can promise.

I don't find deportations funny and heartwarming - I find hoaxsters funny but not heartwarming. No, I am not deportation denier and if the Jewish community was complaining about having their homes and goods confiscated and shoved into trains, then they would have my sympathy. But they are not complaining about that, are they? They are saying they had their babies tossed into burning pits and being packed into gas chambers. The Jews are not the only people to have had their property confiscated and expelled, the list is long and includes on it millions of Germans. It is also noteworthy that as soon as they got the whip-hand they began busily expelling, confiscating and ghettoising those they viewed as Untermensch on the particular area of real estate they had their eye on. Not, in my view, a particularly desirable piece of turf, but one to which its inhabitants seemed quite attached to. And whereas Jews seem to have passports that allow them to settle as they wish in Europe, in the Americas or in my own neck of the woods, the people whose land they stole remain ghettoised and not welcome anywhere.

The challenge was were there any accounts of Jews transiting through Sobibor, my response was simple: I am not aware of any then again the CDJC stated in 1960 that there were 60 000 Jewish survivors in Holland and the logical place to look for such statements would be from this pool and to enquire how they or their forebears had survived the war.

Surely no one here is so anti-semitic to suggest that these 60 000 have anything to hide?!!!

As far as avoiding deportation in Warsaw, my understanding from reading of contemporary accounts is that commonest strategy was simply acquiring Aryan papers, which negated the need to "hide" in the sense it is commonly understood. The situation in Poland was far more chaotic than that of the Netherlands where records being so much more detailed acquiring Aryan papers was much more difficult.

However, as Mr Caution is doubtless aware, even as early as 1944 it was understood that (as some anonymous Czech wag put it) the gas chambers seemed to have had holes in them.

Or as the Yiddish paper Der Tog put it (please excuse my rusty Yiddish translation)

\ Der Tog 17 Mai 1944 New York

Hitlers heirs in Poland

The shrieking part of the secret report, which was produced regarding Poland by the Polish exiled government, the most alarming part is a still, quiet paragraph:

"The return of the Jews to the jobs and workplaces is out of the question, even in quite small numbers. The non-Jewish population has taken the places of the Jews in the small and large cities and this represents for the most part in Poland a basic alteration whose character is a finality"
The underground observer admits that Hitlers mass persecution of the Jews has "reduced the Jewish question", reduced by some millions! but the return of the Jews could "enlarge" the Jewish question to 1 or 2 millions.
"the population find the mass return of the Jews not as a reproduction of earlier conditions, but rather as an invasion, against which they will use physical means to defend themselves"
The economic situation cries public antisemitism, as does the army antisemitism, which threatens that after the victory over Hitler, the first job of the Polish officers and NCOs would consist of shooting 3 Bolsheviks, 2 Ukrainians and 5 Jews...

The remainder of Jewry in Poland is surronded and besieged. Where should they then turn, are they to be sentenced to death by the gentry and grocers [bourgoesie?] of the Poles? The gentry and bourgoesie want to finish off, the remainder which Hitler leaves.

Please provide the original Yiddish. I don't trust your translation.

 

[Clayton Moore]

Ignorant of history arn't you. Someone has already mentioned Brownings Ordinary Men, which describes in great detail "ordinary men" who huged their wives and children and then murdered large numbers of helpless men women and children. And it wasn't just Jews they killed they also killed large numbers of Russians Poles, Sebs etc. Shall I describe the "anti-partisan" actions which were little better than mass murder expeditions in which a few dozen Germans were killed but hundreds and often thousands of "partisans" overwhelmingly actually civilians were killed. Or do you dispute the vast amount of Polish, Russian etc., testimony that documents these mass murders? Or do you dispute that in modern day Belorussia it is estimated that 1/4 - 1/3 of the population perished during the Second World war mainly through atrocity like this. Do you dispute the story of a certain French village, Oradour sur Glane, eradicated by a SS, unit in which hundreds of women and children were burned alive in a church in 1944? Or do you know what happenned in Warsaw during the Warsaw uprising of 1944 when German and German controlled units slaughtered thousands of men women and children in face to face slaughter no doubt having huged their spouses and children first. Just try your crap on Poles living in Poland where it is well known that during the war German units did murder large numbers of Polish men, women and children.

Browning?

Once again the facts contradict themselves proving their idiocy.


3 million Jews (mostly Polish), whom the Nazis had forced into ghettos between 1939 and 1941.

What were those Jewish people doing during 1939 to 1941?

What were they doing in 1942?

What were they doing in 1943?

What were they doing in 1944?

And Christopher Browning is supposed to be a legit Holocaust historian?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Browning

Browning has argued that the Final Solution was the result of the "cumulative radicalization" (to use Hans Mommsen's phrase) of the German state, especially when faced with the self-imposed "problem" of 3 million Jews (mostly Polish), whom the Nazis had forced into ghettos between 1939 and 1941.

 

[LemmyCaution]

. . . if the Jewish community was complaining about having their homes and goods confiscated and shoved into trains, then they would have my sympathy. But they are not complaining about that, are they?

In fact, Jews, including those who returned to Poland, for example, and those who went to Israel, have complained about this in the form of legal action to recover stolen property. These actions are not only regarding the stolen property of those murdered. The Nazi theft of Jewish property began in the Reich before the genocide--and also started in occupied countries before Barbarossa and before deportations to killing sites, ghettos, and labor camps commenced.

They are saying they had their babies tossed into burning pits and being packed into gas chambers.

I think you need more precision with your "theys."

The Jews are not the only people to have had their property confiscated and expelled, the list is long and includes on it millions of Germans.

Of course. But this thread is about the Holocaust and evidence, arguments, and viewpoints regarding the Holocaust, so it hardly seems out of line to mention actions like deportation of Jews from Europe, and the significance of these large scale population removals, which are part of this topic. Your flippancy about this speaks volumes.

It is also noteworthy that as soon as they got the whip-hand they began busily expelling, confiscating and ghettoising those they viewed as Untermensch on the particular area of real estate they had their eye on. Not, in my view, a particularly desirable piece of turf, but one to which its inhabitants seemed quite attached to. And whereas Jews seem to have passports that allow them to settle as they wish in Europe, in the Americas or in my own neck of the woods, the people whose land they stole remain ghettoised and not welcome anywhere.

How these positions of yours prove or disprove positions on the Holocaust, including deportation and evasion, is beyond me.

As far as avoiding deportation in Warsaw, my understanding from reading of contemporary accounts is that commonest strategy was simply acquiring Aryan papers, which negated the need to "hide" in the sense it is commonly understood.

Your understanding would certainly be enhanced by reading Paulsson in whatever form. Judging from your statement of what you understand. In the first place, as Paulsson shows, there was nothing simple whatsoever about securing viable false identity papers. In the second place, large numbers of Jews were in hiding, and Jewish and Polish sources from the time discuss the problem of living quarters, the risks faced by Poles helping Jews hide, and the various types of residences Jews used, from hiding in plain sight to the use of melinas, some with false, private entries and other means of camouflage and disguise. Jewish political parties, among others, maintained melinas for activists, but non-activists as well were in hiding in such places. Paulsson, in fact, distinguishes between Jews living "on the surface" and those underground. You are aware how Emmanuel Ringelblum died, aren't you?

But I will acknowledge that I have taken a tangential point to the question asked about Dutch survivors of Sobibor and seen it turn into a digression. So let's deal with the matter of Dutch Jews and return sometime later to Warsaw.

As to the PDF question, we have been through copyright law in the past, to your embarrassment: none is available with proper rights that I am aware of. Too bad, the book is excellent. But Yale and the author want their reward for having produced it.

 

[TSR]

3 million Jews (mostly Polish), whom the Nazis had forced into ghettos between 1939 and 1941.

What were those Jewish people doing during 1939 to 1941?

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Your own quote says they were being forced into ghettos, can't you read?

Of course, it does not say that they *stayed* there, since there were regular deportations -- usually to one of the camps.
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What were they doing in 1942?

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Being deported some more.
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What were they doing in 1943?

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Well, for example, in the Warsaw ghetto, they were staging an uprising. One the Nazi could not control -- they were forced back out of the ghetto time and again. The Jews, despite having little to no support outside of the ghetto managed to hold out for approximately four times as long as the Polish Army did when the Nazis invaded.
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What were they doing in 1944?

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Those who had not been sent elsewhere to die were already dead in the Warsaw ghetto
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And Christopher Browning is supposed to be a legit Holocaust historian?

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Certainly a better one than any denier I've run across...
.

 

[LemmyCaution]

.

Well, for example, in the Warsaw ghetto, they were staging an uprising. One the Nazi could not control -- they were forced back out of the ghetto time and again. The Jews, despite having little to no support outside of the ghetto managed to hold out for approximately four times as long as the Polish Army did when the Nazis invaded.
.

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Those who had not been sent elsewhere to die were already dead in the Warsaw ghetto
.

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Certainly a better one than any denier I've run across...
.

Indeed. Let's look a bit more into Warsaw, all of this being well known and readily available to anyone willing to crack a book or even google a bit.

In summer and fall of 1942, approximately 300,000 Jews were deported from Warsaw or shot during roundups, in a well-documented Nazi action.

The ghetto population, which had reached between something like 450,000 and 490,000 IIRC, had been reduced considerably by the time of the large-scale deportation, with about 80,000 dying of disease and starvation and 10s of 1000s sent to labor camps, like the one at Treblinka, during this time. Before the 1942 deportations, official rations being at starvation levels, Warsaw's Jews operated large and small scale smuggling efforts, bringing in food to the ghetto from "Aryan" Warsaw to feed Jewish families.

Following the 1942 deportation action, around 60,000 Jews (maximum) were still living in Warsaw--35,000 living in the shrunken ghetto, legally and working in the large shops established there and the rest "wild" Jews, living in the ghetto or, in increasing numbers, as Jews fled the ghetto and hid on the "Aryan" side, in other parts of the city illegally. The shops in the remaining ghetto, under command of Untersturmfuhrer-SS Karl Brandt, produced a variety of goods for German concerns and for the war economy. In addition to the Jews in the workshops, the Werterfassung, a unit composed of Jews who survived the deportation, was pulled together to salvage the property left behind by deported Jews.

In January 1943, before the uprising, nearly 20,000 ghetto Jews (sources disagree on the exact number) were shipped to labor camps, at Himmler's order ("Our aim is to replace this Jewish manpower with Poles while consolidating the many Jewish KL firms into a few large Jewish KL enterprises in the eastern Generalgouvernement. For whatever happens, the Jews will have to disappear from there, too, someday, in accordance with the Fuhrer's will"). Some of the ghetto's shop owners (Tobbens and Schultz to name two) advocated this action and, along with the Nazis, encouraged Jews to turn themselves over for deportation to the camps in the Lublin region (some of the shop owners had made agreements with Globocnik to operate shops in the Lublin camps).

Most Warsaw Jews, suspicious of a repeat of the 1942 "Treblinka" action, refused to cooperate and began digging in in the ghetto, some of them preparing for armed resistance, most hoping to hide when need be until the city was liberated. It was during this period that the famous bunkers and tunnels were constructed, and that activists in two underground resistance organizations armed themselves in earnest.

The Jews shipped to the labor camps did not survive long:

It is estimated that about 15,000 Jews were transported from the Warsaw shops to the Poniatow camp, and I believe about 6,000 to Trawniki. 
Following the ghetto uprising in spring 1943 and revolts at Treblinka (August) and Sobibor (October), Himmler decided to murder the workers in various camps in the Lublin region. His order for Operation Erntefest, as the action was named, opened with a statement of the "dangerous proportion" to which the Jewish problem in the area had grown as a result of the delaying tactics of the manufacturers and their sponsors. 

Here is how Isaiah Trunk describes the fate of the workers shipped from the Warsaw shops to Poniatow and Trawniki during 1943: ". . . all [those sent to Trawniki] were killed during the mass slaughter of November 3, 1943. Four days later, on November 7, the neighboring camp of Poniatow was liquidated. In all, including the shopworkers who fell prey to Toebbens' treacherous promise that they would have a chance to survive the war if they listened to him, over 25,000 Jews were killed in both camps during those two days." (Judenrat, p419) 


These are some of the things which Warsaw Jews were doing during the time which Clayton Moore inquired about.

 

[Pacal]

Please provide the original Yiddish. I don't trust your translation.

Nothing the Rabbit says should be trusted in the slightest. I note that his response to the list of Dutch Jews who were deported and died, and the call to list even one Dutch Jew who was deported to Sobibor who survived has been to change the subject. He finds a list of c. 60,000 supposed Jews in the Netherlands and then demands that others do the research on finding out how many were in the Netherlands during the war and how they survived. I note our little Bunny assumes that they are all Dutch Jewish survivors and their children. Bunny should of course be doing this research. So once our little Rabbit should find some who were on the list of dead who were in fact alive in 1946 or 1960.

But then Rabbit is nothing but a troll after all he wants to do is make people "hopping mad". I guess it is his substitute for something.

 

[abaddon]

But then Rabbit is nothing but a troll after all all he wants to do is make people "hopping mad". I guess it is his substitute for something.

That's interesting. Care to expound on that? The rabbit has already admitted it is simply winding folks up deliberately.

You allude to the idea of a psychological lack.

ETA: For clarity, I am not a bunny apologist, far from it. This was just a friendly enquiry.

 

[ddt]

I believe searches in public telephone directories in the Netherlands found over 39 000 entries of Jewish derived names! Considering many people these days don't bother with landlines, unlisted numbers and the usual practise of only one landline per house, this is indeed happy news.

This is where we should start to find our transitees of Sobibor!

You're referring to this study, I guess?
"De joden in Nederland anno 2000: demografisch profiel en hun binding aan het jodendom"

First of all, you're throwing in some irrelevant assumptions. In 2000, mobile phones weren't yet ubiquitous and even now, very few people have thrown out their landlines. Unlisted numbers are a very small percentage.

Secondly, page 9 of the book outlines the methodology of the study. Basically, they picked out names with a high coincidence among Jews - that is, those surnames for which at least 20% of the holders were Jewish - according to the subjective estimates of a panel of experts in names.

So, of those 39,000 people, actually only some 8,000 are really expected to be Jewish. Even that was optimistic, during the next phase of the research it turned out that an even lower percentage of the people selected for questionnaire and interview were actually Jewish.

Or can you do better, bunny? Can you tell me what percentage of the Dutch with the name "Jakobs" (= son of Jacob) are actually Jewish? Or with the name "Goudsmid" (= gold smith)? Except for the very few obvious names with a very strong correlation to Jewishness, like Levi and Cohen, "Jewish" names are generally just like "Dutch" names. Please enlighten us if you know better.

 

[ddt]

As I said, the figures are from the CDJC - estimates of Jewish losses published by the World Center of Contemporary Jewish Documentation at Paris (Le Figaro Litteraire, June 4, 1960)

I presume the numbers are the position in the immediate post-war - although I can't give you an exact date. Sometime after 1945 and before 1950.

I see. Vague assertions as to what the figures mean. The publication you cite is not a CDJC publication but an article in a weekly. That's all very confidence raising.

But if you think that that 60,000 number is more accurate than the 35,000 number I mentioned - that means, then, there are 25,000 more survivors. The Digital Monument contains some 105,000 names. Continuing with that line of reasoning, then 1 in 4 of those names would actually be survivors, not victims. So why didn't you take the challenge then, with a 93% probability to find a survivor among 10 random names?

Care to explain what I'm missing here?

 

[Clayton Moore]

.
Your own quote says they were being forced into ghettos, can't you read?

Of course, it does not say that they *stayed* there, since there were regular deportations -- usually to one of the camps.
.

.
Being deported some more.
.

.
Well, for example, in the Warsaw ghetto, they were staging an uprising. One the Nazi could not control -- they were forced back out of the ghetto time and again. The Jews, despite having little to no support outside of the ghetto managed to hold out for approximately four times as long as the Polish Army did when the Nazis invaded.
.

.
Those who had not been sent elsewhere to die were already dead in the Warsaw ghetto
.

.
Certainly a better one than any denier I've run across...
.

Were they queued up? How did they get food? The is the type missing mechanics that verifies the Holocaust myth. If they were actually there they had to be working.

 

[ddt]

There are a million and one simple questions with simple answers that I don't know. I don't know the numbers of prisoners in the camps beyond 10,000 - 100,000 and I'm not interested enough to google it up. I'm generally not interested in the details of the history. I was once, but no more. Now, what is interesting to me is how such a ridiculous hoax can be 'believed' by serious people.

I gave you a link to a website with 105,000 Dutch Jews (i.e., with Dutch residency) who didn't come back. We have the complete transport lists from Westerbork. Where did they go? What happened to them? Specifically, of the 19 transports destined for Sobibor, with 34,313 people, only 19 came back. If your numbers were correct, it would be a breeze for you to come up with a 20th name of a survivor.

Why don't you take our challenge, Saggy? Et tu, Clayton!

 

[uke2se]

Were they queued up? How did they get food? The is the type missing mechanics that verifies the Holocaust myth. If they were actually there they had to be working.

Seriously, read a book.

 

[Pacal]

Originally Posted by Pacal
But then Rabbit is nothing but a troll after all all he wants to do is make people "hopping mad". I guess it is his substitute for something.

That's interesting. Care to expound on that? The rabbit has already admitted it is simply winding folks up deliberately.

You allude to the idea of a psychological lack.

ETA: For clarity, I am not a bunny apologist, far from it. This was just a friendly enquiry.

I don't know bunny and has I said it is a guess. Frankly I have no idea what it could be a substitute for. However I could speculate...

 

[TSR]

Were they queued up?

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For tickets to the theater? For a turn at the toilet? For a tank of gas?
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How did they get food?

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You don't know?

Try consulting a real history book.

The "official" ration was around 200 cal / person (roughly one-quarter of the ration for an average Pole and one-tenth that for a German), supplemented by smuggling and scavenging.
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The is the type missing mechanics that verifies the Holocaust myth.

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The only thing your questions verify is your willful ignorance of the history you are so rabid to deny.
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If they were actually there they had to be working.

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No, in fact they were forbidden to work in most occupations, especially any that might mean exiting the ghetto.

Seriously: how many homeless people hold jobs? Especially when their cardboard box is surrounded by barbed wire and armed guards?
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[MG1962]

No, in fact they were forbidden to work in most occupations, especially any that might mean exiting the ghetto.

Seriously: how many homeless people hold jobs? Especially when their cardboard box is surrounded by barbed wire and armed guards?
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Okay let me get this straight, Clayton is now claiming the ghettos didn't exist either?

 

[TSR]

Okay let me get this straight, Clayton is now claiming the ghettos didn't exist either?

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No, just that they didn't house any Jews -- guess zie thinks "ghetto" is Sanskrit for "juda-sim-ism" or something.
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[MG1962]

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No, just that they didn't house any Jews -- guess zie thinks "ghetto" is Sanskrit for "juda-sim-ism" or something.
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Ahh okay - thats pretty bland on the troll scale. So I suppose all the people we see in films with the star of David sewed to their outfits is photo shopped or something

 

[ddt]

Ahh okay - thats pretty bland on the troll scale. So I suppose all the people we see in films with the star of David sewed to their outfits is photo shopped or something

We already knew that from genius Budly because the socks aren't right.