Merged General Holocaust denial discussion thread

[LemmyCaution]

Edited by Tricky: 

List edited pending proof of permission to publish addresses.

Oh dear. What is happening here? Don't tell us someone tried to post personal information without permission . . .

 

[ddt]

Pop quiz Saggy - How big was the camp?

Which camp? Stammlager, Birkenau or Monowitz?

 

[Pacal]

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore
Let me be truthful with you if I may. The Germans and the Poles would no more be party to face to face killing of millions of children than the Brits or Americans freaking would.

So wake the hell up.

So when you talk about the freaking Holocaust you're not freaking talking about Hitler and Himmler ravings and misinterpretations of a sentence or two they may have made.

You're talking about normal Germans and Poles who hugged their own children one day, were knee deep in a war the next, and after, if they survived, were again hugging their own children.

Ignorant of history arn't you. Someone has already mentioned Brownings Ordinary Men, which describes in great detail "ordinary men" who huged their wives and children and then murdered large numbers of helpless men women and children. And it wasn't just Jews they killed they also killed large numbers of Russians Poles, Sebs etc. Shall I describe the "anti-partisan" actions which were little better than mass murder expeditions in which a few dozen Germans were killed but hundreds and often thousands of "partisans" overwhelmingly actually civilians were killed. Or do you dispute the vast amount of Polish, Russian etc., testimony that documents these mass murders? Or do you dispute that in modern day Belorussia it is estimated that 1/4 - 1/3 of the population perished during the Second World war mainly through atrocity like this. Do you dispute the story of a certain French village, Oradour sur Glane, eradicated by a SS, unit in which hundreds of women and children were burned alive in a church in 1944? Or do you know what happenned in Warsaw during the Warsaw uprising of 1944 when German and German controlled units slaughtered thousands of men women and children in face to face slaughter no doubt having huged their spouses and children first. Just try your crap on Poles living in Poland where it is well known that during the war German units did murder large numbers of Polish men, women and children.

Sorry but your naive, people can hug their wives and children and then crush children's skulls against walls.

Of course during Stalin's time the functionaries of the state also murdered in the millions men, women and children, to say nothing of Mao's China.

As for the Americans haven't heard of Sand Creek or Wounded Knee I guess or the American conquest of the Phillipines. About the British I guess you haven't heard of San Sebastian.

In Rwanda people who hugged their spouses and children hacked their neighbours to death, men, women and children by the hundreds of thousands. Of course one could also mention the Japanese three alls campaigns in China, i.e., Loot All, Burn All, Kill All, during which millions of Chinese men, women and children were killed by men who no doubt had recently hugged their spouses and children.

Then there is Guatemala, East Timor, Indonesia, Serbia, Bosnia but it would be tiresome to continue. So why don't you "Wake the hell up!", people who hug their spouses and children can and do murder helpless men, women and children and it happens over and over again with great frequency.

 

[ddt]

Edited by Tricky: 

List edited pending proof of permission to publish addresses.

Oh dear. What is happening here?

I guess the mods don't like it when you publish random addresses and phone numbers, and it seems that Tricky suggests that Bunny first calls those people himself to ask them for permission to publish their contact info.

 

[MG1962]

Which camp? Stammlager, Birkenau or Monowitz?

I'd say which ever one Wiesel was in. But not Monowitz - I dont know how big that was

 

[ddt]

I'd say which ever one Wiesel was in.

If only Saggy would tell us.

But not Monowitz - I dont know how big that was

Quite big, it contained the Buna factory and the barracks for all the labourers employed there.

 

[LemmyCaution]

Well, at very least we will hear 50 heart-warming stories of people being hidden in secret annexes!

Think of all those secret annexes, all those Mieps! Why would we want to bury these joyful tidings?

A very interesting book on the divers ways in which Jews hid out on the Aryan side of Warsaw, before and after the liquidation of the ghetto, is Gunnar Paulsson's Secret City. You might spend some time with this book--it is well researched and very well written, and would no doubt make you less churlish--and it would widen your horizons and give you some information which might be compared to the situation in the Netherlands (in fact, the book contains some comparisons of Jews in hiding in Warsaw to Jews trying to evade the Nazis in the Netherlands--and I do fear your reading it would make you feel rather foolish about your challenge, so neatly deconstructed by ddt). I recommend this book unreservedly and look forward, admittedly with low expectation, to a time when, having read something like it, you are more interested in the lives of those who experienced Nazi rule than you are in your Anne Frank baiting game.

 

[Saggy]

Pop quiz Saggy - How big was the camp?

It doesn't make any difference. According to the hoax, the Nazis were killing 10,000 per day at the camp. The camp could be as big as NYC and Weisel would have known about it. Even Eleanor Roosevelt knew about it, see ...

http://www.xoxol.org/dem/blackbook01.html

The whole world knew about it, that is readers of the Jewish press, except, oddly enough, the Jews in Auschwitz .... see ....

http://www1.yadvashem.org/exhibitions/album_auschwitz/photos/268_134-137_1.jpg

even those just outside the gas chamber door.

So, again we demonstrate the perfect absurdity of the holohoax.

 

[TheRedWorm]

invincible ignorance.

 

[little grey rabbit]

What makes this an obvious lie, exactly? It's impossible to throw babies into the air? It's impossible to use babies as targets? It's impossible to create a gun that would fire bullets in rapid succession?

Those are the only options that I can see. Which of them is it?

McHrozni

I am unsure if McHronzi is aware of the sport of clay pigeon shooting. This involves using a spring loaded mechanism to hurl a clay disc in the air which is then shot at by a marksman.

In principle it should be possible to adopt this procedure to utilising Jewish babies (with the added benefit that the clay pigeons saved could have diverted back into the German armaments industries.) Nevertheless, I should caution that there are possible pitfalls.

Safety dictates that the person operating the spring loading mechanism stand behind the shooter, so that the clay discs are propelled forward. It would be doubtful if a purely hand-cranked machine would be able to propel Jewish babies at sufficient velocity to counteract the force of gravity and to be aloft long enough for the marksman. Of course, perhaps an entirely new mechanism could have been devised - but as you know the Germans were sticklers for documentation and no such machine has been recorded.

Alternatively a German could have thrown a Jewish baby vertically upwards, but this would entail a very real risk of himself being shot as by reflex action as the marksman followed the trajectory downwards. I am not sure how high you could realistically thrown even a new born baby and even a people as sadistic as we all know Germans to be, dislike have bullets whistling just above their heads.

I think the use of a machine gun would be problematic also. Since these were comparatively heavy weapons designed to be used with support and level.

So impossible, perhaps not, but fraught with technical difficulties. Perhaps McHronzi could begin his ambitions small and practise by throwing cats up in the air and see if he can hit them with a water pistol?

 

[TheRedWorm]

invincible ignorance and blatantly trolling, kind of the denier's strong suits.

 

[little grey rabbit]

A very interesting book on the divers ways in which Jews hid out on the Aryan side of Warsaw, before and after the liquidation of the ghetto, is Gunnar Paulsson's Secret City. You might spend some time with this book--it is well researched and very well written, and would no doubt make you less churlish--and it would widen your horizons and give you some information which might be compared to the situation in the Netherlands (in fact, the book contains some comparisons of Jews in hiding in Warsaw to Jews trying to evade the Nazis in the Netherlands--and I do fear your reading it would make you feel rather foolish about your challenge, so neatly deconstructed by ddt). I recommend this book unreservedly and look forward, admittedly with low expectation, to a time when, having read something like it, you are more interested in the lives of those who experienced Nazi rule than you are in your Anne Frank baiting game.

I would be delighted to read it if you or Mr Paulsson send me a pdf or ebook of it -the.little.grey.rabbit at gmail. I feel I have poured enough of my hard-earned money into the greedy maws of Industry mendicants, so I will not personally purchase a copy.

However the question was are there any Jewish people who transited through Sobibor and I was suggesting that the obvious place to start would be asking some of the 60 000 Jewish survivors (or their offspring) which the CDJC (Center for Contemporary Jewish Documentation) identified in 1960.

If all we get is 50 heartwarming stories of Aryans helping their Jewish neighbours, won't this still have been a wonderful and fulfilling exercise?

Here are another 25 Cohens to help out:


Cohen B
xxxx
xxxxx

Cohen B
xxxxxx
xxxxxxx

Cohen B
xxxxxx
xxxxxx

Cohen Bruce
xxxxxxx
xxxxxxx

Cohen BV Felix
xxxxxxx
xxxxxxx

Cohen BV J W
xxxxxx
xxxxxx

Cohen C C
xxxxxxx
xxxxxx

Cohen C C L
xxxxx
xxxxxx

Cohen C E
xxxxxxx
xxxxxxx

Cohen C G M T
xxxxxx
xxxxxx

Cohen C
xxxxx
xxxxxxx

Cohen C J L D
xxxxxx
xxxxxx

Cohen C J
xxxxxxx
xxxxxx

Cohen C P
xxxxxx
xxxxxxx

Cohen C
xxxxx
xxxxxx

Cohen C
xxxxxx
xxxxxx

Cohen Steven Arthur
xxxxxxx
xxxxxxx

Cohen D
xxxxxx
xxxxxx

Cohen D
xxxxxx
xxxxxx

Cohen D
xxxxxx
xxxxxx

Cohen D E A
xxxxxx
xxxxxx

Cohen D E A
xxxxxx
xxxxxx

Cohen D H
xxxxx
xxxx

Cohen D
xxxxx
xxxxx


I always get a warm, fuzzy, happy feeling when I see all these large numbers of Jewish survivors.

I say let the healing begin.

 

[little grey rabbit]

I believe searches in public telephone directories in the Netherlands found over 39 000 entries of Jewish derived names! Considering many people these days don't bother with landlines, unlisted numbers and the usual practise of only one landline per house, this is indeed happy news.

This is where we should start to find our transitees of Sobibor!

 

[MG1962]

It doesn't make any difference. According to the hoax, the Nazis were killing 10,000 per day at the camp. The camp could be as big as NYC and Weisel would have known about it. Even Eleanor Roosevelt knew about it, see ...

Why did you dance around such a simple question Saggy?

 

[MG1962]

If only Saggy would tell us.


Quite big, it contained the Buna factory and the barracks for all the labourers employed there.

Judging from the photos I just looked at it is clearly a substantial installation. Did Krupp build his facilty on the grounds of the camp or was his factory classed as a sub camp?

 

[LemmyCaution]

I would be delighted to read it if you or Mr Paulsson send me a pdf or ebook of it -the.little.grey.rabbit at gmail. I feel I have poured enough of my hard-earned money into the greedy maws of Industry mendicants, so I will not personally purchase a copy.

However the question was are there any Jewish people who transited through Sobibor and I was suggesting that the obvious place to start would be asking some of the 60 000 Jewish survivors (or their offspring) which the CDJC (Center for Contemporary Jewish Documentation) identified in 1960.

If all we get is 50 heartwarming stories of Aryans helping their Jewish neighbours, won't this still have been a wonderful and fulfilling exercise? . . .

I always get a warm, fuzzy, happy feeling when I see all these large numbers of Jewish survivors.

I say let the healing begin.

And I was responding by recommending Paulsson not to your sub-moronic phone book challenge but to this:

Well, at very least we will hear 50 heart-warming stories of people being hidden in secret annexes!

Think of all those secret annexes, all those Mieps!

Simply my way of saying that the strategy of evasion, employed by some Jews, is interesting and not at all a feel-good story with helping hands and self sacrifice all around, as in your baiting lampoon of the situation of those hiding and those involved with them.

Your wise-ass comments--made whether from ignorance, mendacity, or viciousness--put you in a very bad light. Paulsson shows what evasion and survival entailed in Warsaw, with some comparative remarks on the Netherlands, and who was drawn into the circle of evaders, and how the underground society in Warsaw worked and what were its travails; so, it was not your mind-numbing new demographics but the necessity for and dynamics of evasion and hiding I was referring to. Your flippant comments on such matters are really quite foolish as well as vicious when compared to what a broad spectrum of people lived and the dilemmas and difficulties they faced, painstakingly documented and argued in Paulsson's book.

Do you think the deportation of 10s and 100s of 1000s of people from their homes is funny and heart-warming? Or are you, along with being a krema denier and a Great Provocation denier, a deportation denier?

But more power to you: every time you do this, you further discredit yourself.

As for your sense of entitlement, find an online link yourself, or shell out the money to Yale University Press, notorious hoaxing organization. (It shouldn't take you long to find the thing excerpted on Google books, of course.)

 

[ddt]

However the question was are there any Jewish people who transited through Sobibor and I was suggesting that the obvious place to start would be asking some of the 60 000 Jewish survivors (or their offspring) which the CDJC (Center for Contemporary Jewish Documentation) identified in 1960.

The question BSO and I asked was not if there are Sobibor survivors, but whether there are Sobibor survivors hitherto unknown. Specifically, BSO asked for people on the transport lists not on the survivors list he posted; and I asked for someone listed as Sobibor victim on the Digital Monument. All we ask is evidence that someone lived in 1946.

The relevance of posting 2011 addresses and phone numbers of random people with a Jewish name is nil. You don't really think that same meticulously precise Dutch population administration which helped make the Nazis' persecution so effective now has failed and has listed the (grand)parents of these random 50 people you picked out an online phone book as victims while they're not?

I further note your utter lack of respect of privacy. Note that the Digital Monument that's been frequently linked to here doesn't give more hints to survivors than, e.g., "one son survived", not listing so much as their first name.

If all we get is 50 heartwarming stories of Aryans helping their Jewish neighbours, won't this still have been a wonderful and fulfilling exercise?

Such a story would be off-topic for the thread. The thread is not about those ca. 35,000 Dutch Jews who survived the war, because their neighbours or the local RC pastor or random strangers helped them hide, stole or forged rationing coupons so they'd have food, and so on. The thread is about your claim, and that of Saggy, Clayton and the other deniers here, that those ca. 105,000 Dutch Jews who are listed as victims actually are not.

You have already conceded you cannot bring evidence that a single out of the ca. 34,000 listed as Sobibor victims actually survived. So I'm at a loss what there still is to discuss? Do we need to go over those who were sent to Auschwitz as well? Theresienstadt? Bergen-Belsen? Dora? It's not the first time I've posed the challenge, and thus far none of you deniers have been able to identify a single error in the lists of the Digital Monument.

And that's the core question. Evidence (some of) those people actually survived. Without that, all sophistry about exactly which room in Auschwitz was in use or could be used as a gas chamber is moot.

I always get a warm, fuzzy, happy feeling when I see all these large numbers of Jewish survivors.

Compared with the 4,409 hits for "Cohen" at the Monument, I fail to see the "large".

c. Obviously relevant to the discussion - finding people who transited Sobibor.

Obviously not relevant. If you want to find people who transited Sobibor, start with the Westerbork transport lists which can freely be downloaded from the Dutch archives. Most of the survivors of the Holocaust never transited any KZ, but were hidden in attics, basements or annexes or otherwise not found by the Nazi murdering machine. There's not even evidence that those in purview of the Nazis could evade that otherwise than by going into hiding. Those on the famed lists - whether the one of the Dutch Jewish Council or the much-debated one of Weinreb - didn't stave off their fate of deportation, only postponed it for a while.

 

[little grey rabbit]

And I was responding by recommending Paulsson not to your sub-moronic phone book challenge but to this: Simply my way of saying that the strategy of evasion, employed by some Jews, is interesting and not at all a feel-good story with helping hands and self sacrifice all around, as in your baiting lampoon of the situation of those hiding and those involved with them.

Your wise-ass comments--made whether from ignorance, mendacity, or viciousness--put you in a very bad light. Paulsson shows what evasion and survival entailed in Warsaw, with some comparative remarks on the Netherlands, and who was drawn into the circle of evaders, and how the underground society in Warsaw worked and what were its travails; so, it was not your mind-numbing new demographics but the necessity for and dynamics of evasion and hiding I was referring to. Your flippant comments on such matters are really quite foolish as well as vicious when compared to what a broad spectrum of people lived and the dilemmas and difficulties they faced, painstakingly documented and argued in Paulsson's book.

Do you think the deportation of 10s and 100s of 1000s of people from their homes is funny and heart-warming? Or are you, along with being a krema denier and a Great Provocation denier, a deportation denier?

But more power to you: every time you do this, you further discredit yourself.

As for your sense of entitlement, find an online link yourself, or shell out the money to Yale University Press, notorious hoaxing organization. (It shouldn't take you long to find the thing excerpted on Google books, of course.)

I don't enjoy reading off google books, if you want to send me a pdf I will flick through it, but that is all I can promise.

I don't find deportations funny and heartwarming - I find hoaxsters funny but not heartwarming. No, I am not deportation denier and if the Jewish community was complaining about having their homes and goods confiscated and shoved into trains, then they would have my sympathy. But they are not complaining about that, are they? They are saying they had their babies tossed into burning pits and being packed into gas chambers. The Jews are not the only people to have had their property confiscated and expelled, the list is long and includes on it millions of Germans. It is also noteworthy that as soon as they got the whip-hand they began busily expelling, confiscating and ghettoising those they viewed as Untermensch on the particular area of real estate they had their eye on. Not, in my view, a particularly desirable piece of turf, but one to which its inhabitants seemed quite attached to. And whereas Jews seem to have passports that allow them to settle as they wish in Europe, in the Americas or in my own neck of the woods, the people whose land they stole remain ghettoised and not welcome anywhere.

The challenge was were there any accounts of Jews transiting through Sobibor, my response was simple: I am not aware of any then again the CDJC stated in 1960 that there were 60 000 Jewish survivors in Holland and the logical place to look for such statements would be from this pool and to enquire how they or their forebears had survived the war.

Surely no one here is so anti-semitic to suggest that these 60 000 have anything to hide?!!!

As far as avoiding deportation in Warsaw, my understanding from reading of contemporary accounts is that commonest strategy was simply acquiring Aryan papers, which negated the need to "hide" in the sense it is commonly understood. The situation in Poland was far more chaotic than that of the Netherlands where records being so much more detailed acquiring Aryan papers was much more difficult.

However, as Mr Caution is doubtless aware, even as early as 1944 it was understood that (as some anonymous Czech wag put it) the gas chambers seemed to have had holes in them.

Or as the Yiddish paper Der Tog put it (please excuse my rusty Yiddish translation)

\ Der Tog 17 Mai 1944 New York

Hitlers heirs in Poland

The shrieking part of the secret report, which was produced regarding Poland by the Polish exiled government, the most alarming part is a still, quiet paragraph:

"The return of the Jews to the jobs and workplaces is out of the question, even in quite small numbers. The non-Jewish population has taken the places of the Jews in the small and large cities and this represents for the most part in Poland a basic alteration whose character is a finality"
The underground observer admits that Hitlers mass persecution of the Jews has "reduced the Jewish question", reduced by some millions! but the return of the Jews could "enlarge" the Jewish question to 1 or 2 millions.
"the population find the mass return of the Jews not as a reproduction of earlier conditions, but rather as an invasion, against which they will use physical means to defend themselves"
The economic situation cries public antisemitism, as does the army antisemitism, which threatens that after the victory over Hitler, the first job of the Polish officers and NCOs would consist of shooting 3 Bolsheviks, 2 Ukrainians and 5 Jews...

The remainder of Jewry in Poland is surronded and besieged. Where should they then turn, are they to be sentenced to death by the gentry and grocers [bourgoesie?] of the Poles? The gentry and bourgoesie want to finish off, the remainder which Hitler leaves.

 

[ddt]

However the question was are there any Jewish people who transited through Sobibor and I was suggesting that the obvious place to start would be asking some of the 60 000 Jewish survivors (or their offspring) which the CDJC (Center for Contemporary Jewish Documentation) identified in 1960.

I've overlooked this number in my previous reaction. I've never heard otherwise than that there were 140,000 Jews in the Netherlands as the war started, recent immigrants included, and that 105,000 were murdered - thus giving 35,000 survivors. And given the good quality of the administration, I'm more than a little incredulous that those numbers have significantly changed over time, say, since 1946.

So, Bunny, where's your catch? Including "offspring" in the numbers? Did you, by accident, cite a number which is not only about Dutch Jews but also from other countries? Feel free to cough up where you've been disingenuous here.

 

[little grey rabbit]

I've overlooked this number in my previous reaction. I've never heard otherwise than that there were 140,000 Jews in the Netherlands as the war started, recent immigrants included, and that 105,000 were murdered - thus giving 35,000 survivors. And given the good quality of the administration, I'm more than a little incredulous that those numbers have significantly changed over time, say, since 1946.

So, Bunny, where's your catch? Including "offspring" in the numbers? Did you, by accident, cite a number which is not only about Dutch Jews but also from other countries? Feel free to cough up where you've been disingenuous here.

As I said, the figures are from the CDJC - estimates of Jewish losses published by the World Center of Contemporary Jewish Documentation at Paris (Le Figaro Litteraire, June 4, 1960)

I presume the numbers are the position in the immediate post-war - although I can't give you an exact date. Sometime after 1945 and before 1950.