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Merged General Holocaust denial discussion thread

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Originally Posted by little grey rabbit View Post
Well I don't accept the existence of T4. I do think there is a possibility that there was some kind of euthanasia but I can not be certain and the extent of this program I am unsure. But I don't believe so called "wild euthanasia" took place.
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I stand corrected. I didn't know there was controversy over the euthanasia program. Although, I'm a bit confused. You don't accept the existence of T4 but you think some sort of euthanasia program might have been implemented? I thought there was sufficient documentation to prove some sort of euthanasia took place. But I know there wasn't any sort of "wild euthanasia" going on like some people would make it out to be.
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Saggy and Little Grey Rabbit have this all tangled up. Of course, there was a program called T4 headed by Bouhler and Brandt, which, beginning with children and expanding to adults in its second stage, was for the extermination of patients who had been deemed incurably ill. But unlike the post from Little Grey Rabbit would have it, T4 and the wild euthanasia were not the same phenomenon. T4, with its medical panels and Tiergartenstrasse 4 staff, was ended in late August 1941 at which time, although officially halted, the euthanasia continued on the individual initiative of doctors in hospitals, thus the appellation "wild." Further, there was a killing program, 14f13, to rid concentration camps of "excess" prisoners, who were "invalided" for the purpose and then taken to killing sites IIRC. 14f13 was put into action by Bouhler in spring 1941, headed by Brack, and utilized many experienced T4 personnel.

Instead of fumbling around in the dark making strenuous and incompetent speculation, it would behoove you clowns to make an effort to read about these programs, which have been the subject of numerous scholarly treatments.
 
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Dogzilla said:
I stand corrected. I didn't know there was controversy over the euthanasia program. Although, I'm a bit confused. You don't accept the existence of T4 but you think some sort of euthanasia program might have been implemented? I thought there was sufficient documentation to prove some sort of euthanasia took place. But I know there wasn't any sort of "wild euthanasia" going on like some people would make it out to be.
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Can you post some references to the documentation on which your opinion is based? Perhaps you can divide your list of relevant publications in two. One column for those authors who did and and one for those who didn't mention the roads to and from Tiergartenstrasse 4 among the tracks to the final solution?

Dogzilla said:
Germans must be magic. That's probably why so many people hate them.
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You do not presume to speak on behalf of Germans here, do you, Dogzilla? Are you aware that they've no interest in your line of defense?

"Wer hier als Deutscher spricht, muss sich die innere Freiheit zutrauen, die volle Grausamkeit der Verbrechen, die hier von Deutschen begangen wurden, zu erkennen. Wer sie beschönigen oder bagatellisieren wollte oder gar mit der Berufung auf den irregegangenen Gebrauch der sogenannten "Staatsraison" begründen wollte, der würde nur frech sein."
Theodor Heuss, Belsen.

Surely that is not your intention here. Did you ever honestly explain what your intentions are though? I only remember your glib evasions and some unsolicited replies from your opponents on your behalf.
 
2. Since we know Treblinka, Sobibor were both transit camps and Belzec was a work camp...
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Is it just me, or does that seem a little bit like begging the question?
 
Wroclaw said:
Is it just me, or does that seem a little bit like begging the question?
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It probably is just you as I am sure BSO and Dr Terry are secretly of my opinion.

Would you agree IF Durchgangslager Sobibor was really a transit camp and Durchgangslager Malkinia was really a transit camp and Zwangarbeitslager Belzec really was a work camp - then that would cause us to ask questions if the official narrative of the 6 T4 institutions had not been grossly manipulated?
 
little grey rabbit said:
It probably is just you as I am sure BSO and Dr Terry are secretly of my opinion.

Would you agree IF Durchgangslager Sobibor was really a transit camp and Durchgangslager Malkinia was really a transit camp and Zwangarbeitslager Belzec really was a work camp - then that would cause us to ask questions if the official narrative of the 6 T4 institutions had not been grossly manipulated?
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Well, Little Grey Rabbit has been quoted now by Wroclaw saying the "we know Treblinka, Sobibor were both transit camps and Belzec was a work camp," following which assertion he says he is sure that BSO and Nick Terry agree with him.

So we await first Little Grey Rabbit's summary of the evidence and argument for his first assertion, which will necessarily include a critique of the studies holding otherwise, and second for his explanation of how he is certain that BSO and Nick Terry are publicly lying about their views on these camps.
 
LemmyCaution said:
Saggy and Little Grey Rabbit have this all tangled up. Of course, there was a program called T4 headed by Bouhler and Brandt, which, beginning with children and expanding to adults in its second stage, was for the extermination of patients who had been deemed incurably ill. But unlike the post from Little Grey Rabbit would have it, T4 and the wild euthanasia were not the same phenomenon. T4, with its medical panels and Tiergartenstrasse 4 staff, was ended in late August 1941 at which time, although officially halted, the euthanasia continued on the individual initiative of doctors in hospitals, thus the appellation "wild." Further, there was a killing program, 14f13, to rid concentration camps of "excess" prisoners, who were "invalided" for the purpose and then taken to killing sites IIRC. 14f13 was put into action by Bouhler in spring 1941, headed by Brack, and utilized many experienced T4 personnel.

Instead of fumbling around in the dark making strenuous and incompetent speculation, it would behoove you clowns to make an effort to read about these programs, which have been the subject of numerous scholarly treatments.
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You are correct both in my confusion of the terms and that they are the subject of numerous scholarly treatments - of which I have to date paid scant attention.

The problem is that Auschwitz killing facilities and Aktion Reinhardt killing facilities have also been the subject of numerous scholarly treatises and these I have thoroughly disproved. For example (aside from my signature link)
http://littlegreyrabbit.wordpress.c...-as-transit-camp-salonika-auschwitz-malkinia/
http://littlegreyrabbit.wordpress.c...l-plans-for-a-10-oven-mauthausen-crematorium/

As you are surely aware there is supposedly a significant shared personal between AR camps and the T4 facilities. Since we now know the AR camps were not killing facilities then I am sure you would agree an enormous question mark must hang over T4?

Ideally I should spent the same amount of time researching in archives and in site inspections as I have on Auschwitz and AR camps. Unfortunately my finances for obvious reasons have become rather strained and I can no longer afford the travels and expenses associated. It is unlikely - again for the most obvious of reasons - that this situation will change in the medium term, if ever.

However, I have visited Hartheim which confirmed my suspicions and I have also looked at some of the Gestapo reporting of public mood and subversive behaviour in Germany. And while such things as the Scholl siblings' protests get mentioned, there is no mention of any unrest or church resistance regarding euthanasia or any mention of euthanasia at all.
 
LemmyCaution said:
Well, Little Grey Rabbit has been quoted now by Wroclaw saying the "we know Treblinka, Sobibor were both transit camps and Belzec was a work camp," following which assertion he says he is sure that BSO and Nick Terry agree with him.

So we await first Little Grey Rabbit's summary of the evidence and argument for his first assertion, which will necessarily include a critique of the studies holding otherwise, and second for his explanation of how he is certain that BSO and Nick Terry are publicly lying about their views on these camps.
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As to the first, see the post above.

As to the second regarding Dr Terry, you might enjoy the following thread from some years back
http://rodohforum.yuku.com/topic/836/A-modest-counter-proposal-regarding-Treblinka?page=1

Notice how Dr Terry repeatedly refuses to state if believes that a GPR study would show mass earth disturbances at Treblinka and how he finally ducks out of an offer of an all expenses paid study by stating - completely accurately - that it would be bad for his career.
 
little grey rabbit said:
You are correct both in my confusion of the terms and that they are the subject of numerous scholarly treatments - of which I have to date paid scant attention.

The problem is that Auschwitz killing facilities and Aktion Reinhardt killing facilities have also been the subject of numerous scholarly treatises and these I have thoroughly disproved. For example (aside from my signature link)
http://littlegreyrabbit.wordpress.c...-as-transit-camp-salonika-auschwitz-malkinia/
http://littlegreyrabbit.wordpress.c...l-plans-for-a-10-oven-mauthausen-crematorium/

As you are surely aware there is supposedly a significant shared personal between AR camps and the T4 facilities. Since we now know the AR camps were not killing facilities then I am sure you would agree an enormous question mark must hang over T4?

Ideally I should spent the same amount of time researching in archives and in site inspections as I have on Auschwitz and AR camps. Unfortunately my finances for obvious reasons have become rather strained and I can no longer afford the travels and expenses associated. It is unlikely - again for the most obvious of reasons - that this situation will change in the medium term, if ever.

However, I have visited Hartheim which confirmed my suspicions and I have also looked at some of the Gestapo reporting of public mood and subversive behaviour in Germany. And while such things as the Scholl siblings' protests get mentioned, there is no mention of any unrest or church resistance regarding euthanasia or any mention of euthanasia at all.
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What a crock. Yes, I am surely aware of the connection of T4/AR personnel, which, having posted about it a few times upthread, should be clear. No, I am not (a) interested in your financial situation and work habits or (b) aware "that we know the AR camps were not killing facilities." Who is "we," aside from a few members of cloud-cuckooland, and how do they "know" this?

Your having looked at a bit of the Gestapo reporting, while fascinating to readers here and the millions checking out your silly blog, really doesn't trump the proper scholarship on the reactions to T4. Perhaps in the smattering of Gestapo reports you came across, you missed materials elsewhere. Like inquiries from alarmed parents to hospital administrators. Like the attempts of local states attorneys to discover the fate of individuals whom they'd seen committed to hospitals. Like the incarceration and eventual demise of provost Bernhard Lichtenberg for, among other "crimes," protesting in writing to Dr Conti about the killings. Ulf Schmidt's book contains description of the dialogue beween Brandt and von Bodelschwingh, director of Bethel, a Protestant run asylum, that emerged out of the latter's protests about the killing operations. Perhaps before offering your doubts and certainties you might move on from random bits of Gestapo files and scant attention and read properly about T4 and its aftermath. I mean, since your scant attention doesn't seem to match your pretensions to offer opinions and certainty.
 
Why ask how AR camps have been disproved as killing sites if you refuse to read the evidence? That is most strange.

You also misunderstand my methodology. I was genuinely unsure if euthanasia was firmly based or not. So I took a very logical method of investigation:

If euthanasia was taking place in large numbers and this was causing disquiet amongst ordinary germans, this should appear in the Meldungen aus dem Reich - the Gestapo regular reports on mood and subversion in the Reich.

Reading much (admittedly not all, the file is extensive) I found no mention of opposition or concern about euthanasia at all during 1941 and 1940. Nor have I seen anyone reference these files in regards to euthanasia.

So I asked myself and you - why might that be?
 
little grey rabbit said:
Would you agree IF Durchgangslager Sobibor was really a transit camp and Durchgangslager Malkinia was really a transit camp and Zwangarbeitslager Belzec really was a work camp - then that would cause us to ask questions if the official narrative of the 6 T4 institutions had not been grossly manipulated?
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That's very clever. Perhaps you also believe that the Nazis never lied?

Whatever:

(1) That the Nazis called Sobibor a Durchgangslager is problematic, given that no one ever went anywhere else from there -- unless you can prove otherwise.

(2) I find it interesting that you've decisively located Durchgangslager Malkinia.

(3) That Belzec was founded as a Zwangarbeitslager is not in dispute.

But sure, I'll play: IF AND ONLY IF all three of those things really were true, THEN AND ONLY THEN would the discussion go forward.

You've not proved any of that, however.
 
TheRedWorm said:
Don't forget, when dealing with LGR...
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I think that the anti semitic leporidic is confusing 'hopping mad' with 'full of loathing and nausea'.
ps LGR,you can find the word leporidic in a dictionary.

How do you confuse a Holocaust denier?
 
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dafydd said:
I think that the anti semitic leporidic is confusing 'hopping mad' with 'full of loathing and nausea'.
ps LGR,you can find the word leporidic in a dictionary.

How do you confuse a Holocaust denier?
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Well, here is something that will surely make every righteous Zionist full of loathing and nausea, pictures of the childrens zoo at Treblinka. Elsewhere on the site are pictures of the quarry ....

http://www.deathcamps.org/treblinka/zoo.html
 
little grey rabbit said:
Why ask how AR camps have been disproved as killing sites if you refuse to read the evidence? That is most strange.

You also misunderstand my methodology. I was genuinely unsure if euthanasia was firmly based or not. So I took a very logical method of investigation:

If euthanasia was taking place in large numbers and this was causing disquiet amongst ordinary germans, this should appear in the Meldungen aus dem Reich - the Gestapo regular reports on mood and subversion in the Reich.

Reading much (admittedly not all, the file is extensive) I found no mention of opposition or concern about euthanasia at all during 1941 and 1940. Nor have I seen anyone reference these files in regards to euthanasia.

So I asked myself and you - why might that be?
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I don't like being directed to your idiotic blog, if that is what you mean by the evidence which should be read. You could do us the courtesy of summarizing your arguments here. I read the Salonika stuff in February or March, I think, not sure where. It didn't disprove AR--it afforded you the opportunity to raise your usual suspicions based on hearsay and one transport. Large deal. (That scene in "Shoah" was certainly vivid and possessed staying power.) The Mauthausen thing doesn't seem to mention AR, so was it pasted in error? So, anyway, I have no idea whatsoever why you would claim I haven't read your various arguments over time. But you like making empty charges, so why not?

I do understand your methodology all too well. It is shoddy and it allows you to toss about suspicions and supposed anomalies whilst you ignore most of the evidence -- and then to insert forgeries when the mountains of evidence catch up with you and spoil your little game.
 
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dafydd said:
I think that the anti semitic leporidic is confusing 'hopping mad' with 'full of loathing and nausea'.
ps LGR,you can find the word leporidic in a dictionary.

How do you confuse a Holocaust denier?
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Understood. I just like to point out that it's only purpose is to troll. No use wasting effort (as minor as it might be) on someone who is just trolling.
 
Every example that the believers provide is a self serving improvisation built around a basic place or fact or situation.

The one aspect of the Holocaust that all believers and the liars sidestep is the HOW of the Holocaust. If a computer model was to be built it would prove the holocaust was a lie because nothing would fit. Manpower, transportation, fuel sources, the locations of large groups of victims in various stages of their ordeal(s), food, weather caused and other bottlenecks, staging areas and on and on and on.
 
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Clayton Moore said:
Every example that the believers provide is a self serving improvisation built around a basic place or fact or situation.
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Why don't you choose an example cited here and show us how this is so - rather than ignoring what is posted and returning again and again to unsubstantiated and generalized claims?
 
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