Merged General Holocaust denial discussion thread

[Wroclaw]

http://www.onethirdoftheholocaust.com/mov_pages/03_mov.html

Wholly refuted here:

http://onethirdoftheholocaust.blogspot.com/

 

[Wroclaw]

Which is why I used the word soul. Because Germany lost the war it alone receives eternal damning. To even say otherwise results in the spewing of insults and hate, this thread attests to that, and, in many countries, arrest.

How about Japan? Are they eternally damned also? And it's against the law to say that Germany isn't damned eternally? Really? Where?

 

[Wroclaw]

You tell me what has happened Germans and Germany after WWII?

Oooh! Call on me!!!

They have the strongest economy in Europe and are a country where refugees routinely seek refuge thanks to its stable government.

You see, Germany did its penance for the Holocaust, rather than deny it like some idiots...

 

[Wroclaw]

So did they know or were they stupid?

And there's the two-valued orientation I was waiting for.

Are you not aware that other explanations are possible? Is your thinking always so black and white?

 

[Dogzilla]

And yet Saggy tries to whitewash the program by calling it "mercy killing."

As somebody who has seen what Alzheimer's and cancer can do to a person, I don't think "mercy killing" is a whitewash.

And then Saggy goes further asking for the documents as though none exist.

No, Saggy asked for documents. Asking for documents isn't the same as saying none exist. If I ask for directions to Yankee Stadium am I implying Yankee Stadium is a hoax?

And Little Grey Rabbit turns up to say stupid things about the Hitler note of October 1939, trying to cast doubt on it and the program by calling it the most pathetic document ever. And finally you chimed in a few times with a dismal attempt to support Little Grey Rabbit. So I don't really take your statement on face value and in fact have read denier arguments, usually provoked by the desperate attempt to wave off gas chambers as a preventive action, doubting T4, minimizing the numbers of T4 victims, and, like Saggy, sanitizing the operation to the extent that it has to be admitted.

It is 'admitted' to the extent that there is evidence for it.

Of course, T4 used the murder technique of gassing, which was later used in the death camps, and many T4 personnel wound up working in the AR camps, not to mention that the same Volkish ideology shaped both the euthanasia and anti-Jewish murder programs, so your claim that there is no connection between the T4 killings and the killings of Jews is specious. 14f13 seems to me to be another bridge between killing programs.

The claim that T4 is relevant to a discussion of the holocaust is an attempt to use evidence for things that exist as evidence for things that do not. In this sense it's like deportations. There's no evidence that Jews were intentionally murdered in death camps so we'll use evidence that Jews were deported instead. And *presto* train schedules, passenger manifests, and irrelevant documents like the Hoefle telegram magically become evidence for murder.

There's no evidence for homicidal gas chambers that could murder thousands of people at one time. The Allies couldn't even find evidence of a room that the Nazis used to murder people with hydrogen cyanide gas as a form of punishment like the Japanese could have found if they had overrun San Quentin. But there's evidence of T4 so we'll just use that instead.

 

[Dogzilla]

.
The term you're looking for is "The Traditional Enemies Of Free Speech."

Or simply "our traditional enemy."

Which is ironic, given how many times he has sued to prevent others from exercising that right, and how few times (never) he has been successful at it.

Never? He's done it often enough for me to believe it must've worked at least once.

In fact, he is on record as having waited for La Lipstadt's tome to be published in England so that he wouldn't be limited by "that pesky First Amendment."
.

He waited until it was published in England because the burden of proof would be on Lipstadt in England whereas it would've been on him in the United States.

 

[Wroclaw]

He waited until it was published in England because the burden of proof would be on Lipstadt in England whereas it would've been on him in the United States.

And where the cost of defense then lies with the person who filed suit in case that person loses.

Whoopsie!

 

[MG1962]

And there's the two-valued orientation I was waiting for.

Are you not aware that other explanations are possible? Is your thinking always so black and white?

I find people like this just unable to adjust their thinking for the times. There was only two major forms of information during the time. Newspaper and radio. Radio was 100% controlled by the Nazis and non German newspapers were banned in Germany from 1933 to 1945 with a three months gap for the 1936 Olympics

To add to the stiffling atmosphere was the Gestapo. Germans learned very quickly if they were aware of something negative, dont repeat it, dont discuss it

 

[LemmyCaution]

As somebody who has seen what Alzheimer's and cancer can do to a person, I don't think "mercy killing" is a whitewash.

Many of the victims were far from terminally ill, and certainly they did not wish to die; the actions taken against the victims, whose "conditions" were loosely defined at best and poorly evaluated, were murder -- and to call murder "mercy killing" is in fact an attempt at whitewashing.

For example, one victim, shoemaker Willy Erler, who was blind, was taken by Gekrat from a hospital to which he'd been committed as a habitual criminal, to a killing center in February 1940. Hermann Wirstling was a dentist committed for drug use and was transferred and killed in April 1940. Ernst Schmiedel, a laborer, was serving a 16 month sentence for morals charges (homosexual activity) when he was transferred to Brandenburg where on the same day he was killed with five others committed for minor infractions; these murders were discovered by the attorney general of Naumburg. Elisabeth Rettig's son was committed to Kalmenhof-Idstein hospital for running away from home; he fled the hospital and was returned to it--a week later authorities notified Elisabeth Rettig of her son's death--she later learned that he'd been transferred to a killing ward.

These and other cases, spanning the gamut of victims, are described in Friedlander's The Origins of Nazi Genocide: From Euthanasia to the Final Solution.

The claim that T4 is relevant to a discussion of the holocaust is an attempt to use evidence for things that exist as evidence for things that do not. In this sense it's like deportations. There's no evidence that Jews were intentionally murdered in death camps so we'll use evidence that Jews were deported instead. And *presto* train schedules, passenger manifests, and irrelevant documents like the Hoefle telegram magically become evidence for murder.

There's no evidence for homicidal gas chambers that could murder thousands of people at one time. The Allies couldn't even find evidence of a room that the Nazis used to murder people with hydrogen cyanide gas as a form of punishment like the Japanese could have found if they had overrun San Quentin. But there's evidence of T4 so we'll just use that instead.

Nonsense. The discussion was about connections between two different programs including ideological perspectives, the fact of mass murder, leadership and staff as well as some similarities in methods used. Please show where anyone conflated the two or claimed that the mass execution of Europe's Jews is proven by the mass murder of patients in hospitals. The evidence for the connection between the two killing programs is evidence that the two programs shared some features and were committed by the same regime. That is all.

 

[LemmyCaution]

I find people like this just unable to adjust their thinking for the times. There was only two major forms of information during the time. Newspaper and radio. Radio was 100% controlled by the Nazis and non German newspapers were banned in Germany from 1933 to 1945 with a three months gap for the 1936 Olympics

To add to the stiffling atmosphere was the Gestapo. Germans learned very quickly if they were aware of something negative, dont repeat it, dont discuss it

In addition to which, news did leak out and spread. And yet many people who received the news, by whatever method, had trouble believing, given the terrifying dimension and unusual nature of the news, that the reports were accurate. Jewish diaries are filled with the writers' internal debates with themselves over how the news could be true, what the fate of the "disappeared" could be, and whether to take Hitler's threats and news of the actions against Jews on face value.

 

[MG1962]

In addition to which, news did leak out and spread. And yet many people who received the news, by whatever method, had trouble believing, given the terrifying dimension and unusual nature of the news, that the reports were accurate. Jewish diaries are filled with the writers' internal debates with themselves over how the news could be true, what the fate of the "disappeared" could be, and whether to take Hitler's threats and news of the actions against Jews on face value.

People's sensibilities played a huge part in what was going on. We have the advantage of hindsight, and can see the lynchpin moments of the period. In 1933 the German people and the rest of the world could only play em as they see em

And how would we react? Visit the conspiracy forum and read posts about FEMA death camps. Whats the average reaction.................. What if those reports are true, how will people judge us in 40 years

 

[Clayton Moore]

Wholly refuted here:

http://onethirdoftheholocaust.blogspot.com/

The above leads to assuming that, if Raul Hilberg and Yitzhak Arad used Yankel Wiernik’s A Year in Treblinka as one of the many sources

Let's see, some of Yankel's blathering is obviously plain, nonsensical made up crap. Made up to coincide with a personal agenda.


Respected historians Raul Hilberg and Yitzhak Arad cite as fact Yankel's testimony that is not obviously plain nonsensical made up crap.
Why? To support their personal agenda.

Yankel says

I am no longer a young man and have seen a great deal in my lifetime, but not even Lucifer could possibly have created a hell worse than this. Can you picture a grate of this length piled high with 3,000 corpses of people who had been alive only a short time before? As you look at their faces it seems as if at any moment these bodies might awaken from their deep sleep. But at a given signal a giant torch is lit and it burns with a huge flame.

This is discussed in numbing circumlocution as if it meant something or that the burning 3,000 corpses on grids made of railroad tracks was a feasible/cost effective method of body disposal. Logs wore used crush unburned to ash bones. Too large bones were added to the next 3,000 bodies.

3,000 bodies? Next time you roast a pig don't shut the grill's cover. Then guesstimate how much fuel you would need to turn it to bone/ash.

The entire withering blog page is to justify Yankel's and other goofball's non ridiculous writings.

 

[Wroclaw]

The entire withering blog page is to justify Yankel's and other goofball's non ridiculous writings.

You didn't read it.

Know how I know that?

Because every link on that blog page goes to a different blog, where there are very long articles painstakingly refuting every single thing that "denierbud" says -- not just the Yankel Wiernik.

That's how I know.

Thanks for allowing me to prove that you do no research on your own and that you will believe anything you are told so long as it reflects badly on Jews.

 

[Wroclaw]

What if those reports are true, how will people judge us in 40 years

Yeah, except they aren't true.

 

[MG1962]

Let's see, some of Yankel's blathering is obviously plain, nonsensical made up crap. Made up to coincide with a personal agenda.

Fortunately we have some forty other accounts of what went on in that camp from survivors.

As for the rest of your opinions, they have about as much value as a chocolate teapot

 

[Clayton Moore]

You didn't read it.

Know how I know that?

Because every link on that blog page goes to a different blog, where there are very long articles painstakingly refuting every single thing that "denierbud" says -- not just the Yankel Wiernik.

That's how I know.

Thanks for allowing me to prove that you do no research on your own and that you will believe anything you are told so long as it reflects badly on Jews.

You call that double talk some sort of verification that the Holocaust is not the pot of gold at the end of well used rainbow?

You Holocaust authorities regurgitate so many inane banalities people shudder in agreement so you'll STFU.

 

[Wroclaw]

Now you're just angry.

I think I'll put you on ignore now. I can read your garbage when other people eviscerate you.

 

[Clayton Moore]

Now you're just angry.

I think I'll put you on ignore now. I can read your garbage when other people eviscerate you.

Take the weekend. Maybe the lugubrious contributory verbosity will wear off.

 

[Dogzilla]

Well I don't accept the existence of T4. I do think there is a possibility that there was some kind of euthanasia but I can not be certain and the extent of this program I am unsure. But I don't believe so called "wild euthanasia" took place.

I stand corrected. I didn't know there was controversy over the euthanasia program. Although, I'm a bit confused. You don't accept the existence of T4 but you think some sort of euthanasia program might have been implemented? I thought there was sufficient documentation to prove some sort of euthanasia took place. But I know there wasn't any sort of "wild euthanasia" going on like some people would make it out to be.

1. I have visited Hartheim and looked at the plans which Mauthausen prisoners say the crematorium and chimney supposedly represented - and they look entirely implausible. Supposedly there was a free standing chimney stack built in the courtyard that was over four stories high, and of course totally dismantled without a trace just before the Allies turned up.

Germans must be magic. That's probably why so many people hate them.

2. Since we know Treblinka, Sobibor were both transit camps and Belzec was a work camp and most of the personnel of these camps were supposed to have come from T4, it doesn't make sense that people working in transit camps should have been preferentially chosen from people running "wild euthanasia" facilities. Commonsense then suggests there must be something gravely wrong with the orthodox narrative of euthanasia.

I cannot disagree that there must be something gravely wrong with the orthodox narrative.

 

[SpitfireIX]

Holocaust denial is something else altogether. Charitably can we say that, being young and naïve, the masked man has no idea of the fetid swamp he's dipping his toes into?

Let's not legitimize CM's hijacking the name of an American legend.