Merged General Holocaust denial discussion thread

[Wroclaw]

Manpower

Why? Germany had an enormous army and universal conscription, as well as the SS and plenty of volunteers from eastern Europe to help out.

transportation

This statement again shows your fundamental ignorance of the history of the period. One of the primary purposes of the concentration process was to put the Jews as close to the railways as possible.

fuel sources

Why? It's easily taken care of once Germany conquers other areas. Romania was supplying oil for much of the war anyway. And wood? The death camps were in Poland -- the whole freaking country is forest.

the locations of large groups of victims in various stages of their ordeal(s)

And yet for virtually any victim, I could tell you with 90% accuracy exactly what route they took to their death.

food

You don't really think hundreds of thousands of Jews starving to death concerned the Nazis, do you?

weather caused

I'm sorry, weather?

and other bottlenecks, staging areas and on and on and on.

You should really be specific.

 

[dafydd]

To finish the joke.
How do you confuse a Holocaust denier?
Show him a pile of shovels and tell him to take his pick. Boom boom!

 

[MG1962]

To finish the joke.
How do you confuse a Holocaust denier?
Show him a pile of shovels and tell him to take his pick. Boom boom!

Dont give up your day job

 

[Clayton Moore]

You should really be specific.

If you don't understand the impact of bottlenecks stick to your spewing circumlocution.

It's nutso that the weather is never considered in your tunnel viewed holocaust.

 

[MG1962]

Ignore me.............

 

[dafydd]

If you don't understand the impact of bottlenecks stick to your spewing circumlocution.

It's nutso that the weather is never considered in your tunnel viewed holocaust.

There,there. Now go and have a nice lie down. Feel free to ignore me too please.

 

[LemmyCaution]

If you don't understand the impact of bottlenecks stick to your spewing circumlocution.

It's nutso that the weather is never considered in your tunnel viewed holocaust.

What a joke. Accounts of life in ghettos routinely describe accelerated death rates during winter, whilst Jewish diaries depict their authors hoping to hold on until warm weather returns. And, confirming these views, in a 1942 report Stahlecker wrote this about inmates in the Riga ghetto, "Of the Jews from the Reich only a small portion are capable of work. Some 70-80% are women and children as well as elderly persons incapable of work. The mortality rate is also climbing steadily, as a result of the extraordinarily harsh winter. . . . In individual cases infectious Jews were separated and executed under the pretext of being sent to a Jewish old people’s home or hospital." The unusually severe winter of 1941-1942 and its impact on victims is commonly discussed in accounts of the genocide. In his recent history of the Holocaust in the East, Yitzak Arad describes how harsh winter weather and frozen ground caused pauses in open-air shooting actions. Accelerated death rates during winter and the difficulty of escapes at this time of year were commonly reported about the various camps, whilst the widespread stench of corpses, hurriedly buried at Birkenau and in the AR camps, during the hot summer months caused changes in how murder victims' bodies were disposed of.

This one's reading is so limited and his "arguments" so vapid that I am coming to agree with Wroclaw that there is little point in discussion with him.

 

[Clayton Moore]

What a joke. Accounts of life in ghettos routinely describe accelerated death rates during winter, whilst Jewish diaries depict their authors hoping to hold on until warm weather returns. And, confirming these views, in a 1942 report Stahlecker wrote this about inmates in the Riga ghetto, "Of the Jews from the Reich only a small portion are capable of work. Some 70-80% are women and children as well as elderly persons incapable of work. The mortality rate is also climbing steadily, as a result of the extraordinarily harsh winter. . . . In individual cases infectious Jews were separated and executed under the pretext of being sent to a Jewish old people’s home or hospital." The unusually severe winter of 1941-1942 and its impact on victims is commonly discussed in accounts of the genocide. In his recent history of the Holocaust in the East, Yitzak Arad describes how harsh winter weather and frozen ground caused pauses in open-air shooting actions. Accelerated death rates during winter and the difficulty of escapes at this time of year were commonly reported about the various camps, whilst the widespread stench of corpses, hurriedly buried at Birkenau and in the AR camps, during the hot summer months caused changes in how murder victims' bodies were disposed of.

This one's reading is so limited and his "arguments" so vapid that I am coming to agree with Wroclaw that there is little point in discussion with him.

That was just stupid. In order to mass do anything everything has to flow. Your rigors of the camps obfuscation is just a halfassed attempt to ignore bottlenecks and the need to stage people and or stuff on the way to or from the camps.

If you're moving 20,000 or more people a week and a snow storm or major mechanical/power occurs somewhere there are going to be 40,000 people waiting that have to be overseen and fed for an unexpected duration.

 

[Wroclaw]

That was just stupid. In order to mass do anything everything has to flow. Your rigors of the camps obfuscation is just a halfassed attempt to ignore bottlenecks and the need to stage people and or stuff on the way to or from the camps.

If you're moving 20,000 or more people a week and a snow storm or major mechanical/power occurs somewhere there are going to be 40,000 people waiting that have to be overseen and fed for an unexpected duration.

Did you know that 4.3 million people right the New York subway system every day?

Think about it for a second, and you might (but probably won't) begin to realize why I mention that.

 

[Clayton Moore]

Did you know that 4.3 million people right the New York subway system every day?

Think about it for a second, and you might (but probably won't) begin to realize why I mention that.

Kinda. Though I had no idea that the New York subway system collapsed daily.

 

[LemmyCaution]

That was just stupid. In order to mass do anything everything has to flow. Your rigors of the camps obfuscation is just a halfassed attempt to ignore bottlenecks and the need to stage people and or stuff on the way to or from the camps.

If you're moving 20,000 or more people a week and a snow storm or major mechanical/power occurs somewhere there are going to be 40,000 people waiting that have to be overseen and fed for an unexpected duration.

And you need to explain your points instead of listing items that you seem to think speak for themselves. There were disruptions to transportation of victims to their deaths, of course, for example, when the railway line into Sobibor was "down" for repairs in August - September 1942. At that time, victims were sent to Treblinka instead. Mass shootings stopped, as I stupidly pointed out, when burial was too difficult due to cold. Of course, I am only guessing as to the point of your list of factors since you haven't made a coherent explanation and you haven't made reference to any of the historical record, which sadly includes details on dates and routes of train deportations and other elements of the genocide.

 

[Clayton Moore]

And you need to explain your points instead of listing items that you seem to think speak for themselves. There were disruptions to transportation of victims to their deaths, of course, for example, when the railway line into Sobibor was "down" for repairs in August - September 1942. At that time, victims were sent to Treblinka instead. Mass shootings stopped, as I stupidly pointed out, when burial was too difficult due to cold. Of course, I am only guessing as to the point of your list of factors since you haven't made a coherent explanation and you haven't made reference to any of the historical record, which sadly includes details on dates and routes of train deportations and other elements of the genocide.

Your version of the Holocaust demands the Germans directly managed the movement, supervision, etc. of 10 to 20 million or more noncombatants in Germany, Poland, and much of Europe while fighting WWII on at least three fronts and at sea. Forget you and your smokescreen request for details.

 

[Clayton Moore]

While you're pontificating tell us how people manage to survive multiple "death" camps. I've read 100s of accounts and 4 or 5 different camps and return stays were not uncommon. I've read of 9 and more "death" camps being survived by one person.

 

[MG1962]

Your version of the Holocaust demands the Germans directly managed the movement, supervision, etc. of 10 to 20 million or more noncombatants in Germany, Poland, and much of Europe while fighting WWII on at least three fronts and at sea. Forget you and your smokescreen request for details.

Using that argument then the whole of WW2 is faked because the Germans alone moved 17 million members of the armed forces during WW2.

The Soviets moved 18 million

The US 15 million

The Germans captured and moved to POW camps 3.3 million Soviet soliders in the first 7 months of the war on the Eastern front. Also worth noting 2.2 million of those soldiers were already dead from their treatment in the camps

The Germans killed aproximately 5000 Soviet POWs a week for the duration of the war

 

[Corsair 115]

This statement again shows your fundamental ignorance of the history of the period. One of the primary purposes of the concentration process was to put the Jews as close to the railways as possible.

Indeed. I suspect he doesn't realize that the predominant way people and goods were moved back then was by rail, not road.

Why? It's easily taken care of once Germany conquers other areas. Romania was supplying oil for much of the war anyway.

Germany was also producing synthetic oil in thirteen different plants (with three additional facilities started in 1944).

If you're moving 20,000 or more people a week and a snow storm or major mechanical/power occurs somewhere there are going to be 40,000 people waiting that have to be overseen and fed for an unexpected duration.

It takes a heck of a storm to shut down a railway for any length of time. Electrical power disruptions wouldn't matter too much since the railway locomotives were powered by coal (as was much of Germany's economy).

Your version of the Holocaust demands the Germans directly managed the movement, supervision, etc. of 10 to 20 million or more noncombatants in Germany, Poland, and much of Europe while fighting WWII on at least three fronts and at sea.

Not all at once.

 

[Clayton Moore]

Using that argument then the whole of WW2 is faked because the Germans alone moved 17 million members of the armed forces during WW2.

The Soviets moved 18 million

The US 15 million

The Germans captured and moved to POW camps 3.3 million Soviet soliders in the first 7 months of the war on the Eastern front. Also worth noting 2.2 million of those soldiers were already dead from their treatment in the camps

The Germans killed aproximately 5000 Soviet POWs a week for the duration of the war

How many of those 17 million German soldiers were fighting and supporting the fighting and supporting the training for fighting?

The Germans captured and moved to POW camps 3.3 million Soviet soliders in the first 7 months of the war on the Eastern front. Also worth noting 2.2 million of those soldiers were already dead from their treatment in the camps

Please clarify.


Look at the numbers Germany is said to have caused including its own losses. It certainly didn't have the resources or the soldiers to perform the Holocaust in tandem and even less likely as they were LOSING the war.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties

 

[LemmyCaution]

Indeed. I suspect he doesn't realize that the predominant way people and goods were moved back then was by rail, not road.

Indeed. And even with our current reliance on air and road travel, the third worst snow storm in the history of the city where I live this winter slowed things down for a couple days. I doubt that one less piece of mail eventually reached recipients for the tangle up. In addition to which, how the Germans directly managed the movement of massive numbers of people is well documented and need not be a subject for hypotheticals, couldn't-haves, and head-shaking. As MG1962 points out, the Germans were able to move millions of men and machines and weapons across nearly the entire continent of Europe, defeat enemy armies, install ruling authorities, and organize complex logistics to support the cause. In rain, snow, sleet, overcast, and sunshine.

 

[LemmyCaution]

Look at the numbers Germany is said to have caused including its own losses. It certainly didn't have the resources or the soldiers to perform the Holocaust in tandem and even less likely as they were LOSING the war.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties

To interject at least a modicum of substance into your ruminations, you will need to consider that by the time the Germans arguably began "LOSING the war," that is Jan-Feb 1943 with their rout at Stalingrad, 3.8 million Jews had already been slaughtered (that is, 75% of the total number of victims) .

 

[LemmyCaution]

Is Clayton hell-bent on rubbishing the deniers' foolish attempt to develop a "resettlement" line of argument (which adds more complexity than murder in that it requires preparation of places to live as well as provisioning during a time of scarcity) -- e.g., Little Grey Rabbit's transit camp tomfoolery -- through the claim of logistical impossibility? Do any two deniers agree on any argument other than "it didn't happen"?

 

[LemmyCaution]

The problem is that Auschwitz killing facilities and Aktion Reinhardt killing facilities have also been the subject of numerous scholarly treatises and these I have thoroughly disproved. For example (aside from my signature link)
http://littlegreyrabbit.wordpress.co...witz-malkinia/
http://littlegreyrabbit.wordpress.co...n-crematorium/

"Krema Denial holds that in Moscow there existed a Topf letter (and other Nazi era documents) generating factory, where counterfeits could be produced at will to cover perceived gaps in the historical narrative."