Merged General Holocaust denial discussion thread

[Wroclaw]

The question is if and how many people actually know that or ever even heard of Zionism.

You're joking. Never heard of Zionism?

Not me personally. The gas chambers.

Why would I run from the gas chambers? I stick by the normative history, lock, stock, and barrel.

You got kicked for the reason of harassing someone and people have been banned from this forum as well.

I harassed no one.

I got someone to admit that it was likely at least half a million Jews could be found in mass graves in the former USSR. That got me a ban.

Jonnie Hargis can forge e-mails all he likes; it doesn't make his lies become true.

 

[kageki]

You're joking. Never heard of Zionism?



Why would I run from the gas chambers? I stick by the normative history, lock, stock, and barrel.



I harassed no one.

I got someone to admit that it was likely at least half a million Jews could be found in mass graves in the former USSR. That got me a ban.

Jonnie Hargis can forge e-mails all he likes; it doesn't make his lies become true.

As I said before, ask just people around you about Zionism or delousing or labor camps. The public at large.

We know you believe it. That wasn't the point. You also very well know that people are questioning if the gas chambers really happened or not. I don't see how testimonies match up to the description of a real gas chamber execution.

 

[Thunder]

How can you then insinuate that Israel was created because of Nazi Germany? It was already in the works and even the Nazis were planning a homeland. Just not in Palestine.

no that i want to contribute to this derail, but its very doubtful that the UN would have voted for a Jewish state in Palestine, had it not been for the Holocaust.

 

[kageki]

no that i want to contribute to this derail, but its very doubtful that the UN would have voted for a Jewish state in Palestine, had it not been for the Holocaust.

Maybe specifically for the location, but Israelis wave around the Balfour Declaration. The British certainly supported a Jewish state in Palestine.

Churchill:
http://library.flawlesslogic.com/ish.htm

Nothing could be more significant than the fury with which Trotsky has attacked the Zionists generally, and Dr. Weissmann in particular. The cruel penetration of his mind leaves him in no doubt that his schemes of a world-wide communistic State under Jewish domination are directly thwarted and hindered by this new ideal, which directs the energies and the hopes of Jews in every land towards a simpler, a truer, and a far more attainable goal.

The sentiments for a Jewish homeland was still there and even the Nazis were discussing it.

Stalin even gave some land to the Jews:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Autonomous_Oblast

 

[Wroclaw]

As I said before, ask just people around you about Zionism or delousing or labor camps. The public at large.

Ask them what? Be specific.

We know you believe it. Tha

t wasn't the point. You also very well know that people are questioning if the gas chambers really happened or not.

Really? I see a small lunatic fringe heavily tied to neo-Nazis.

I don't see how testimonies match up to the description of a real gas chamber execution.

As in a prison gas-chamber execution? No, you wouldn't see much resemblance because there isn't much.

 

[Wroclaw]

Maybe specifically for the location, but Israelis wave around the Balfour Declaration. The British certainly supported a Jewish state in Palestine.

The British supported a "Jewish national home." The Balfour Declaration, for all its faults, makes it pretty clear that the Palestinian Arabs should not be made to suffer for this Jewish national home. That quite clearly is not what happened.

 

[kageki]

The British supported a "Jewish national home." The Balfour Declaration, for all its faults, makes it pretty clear that the Palestinian Arabs should not be made to suffer for this Jewish national home. That quite clearly is not what happened.

In Palestine. Before the Holocaust. Before even Hitler came to power.

 

[Revdude]

Apparently he isn't.

Wow.

I mean, *wow*!

Quite honestly I wasn't.
I was under the impression that all was connected.
I guess I jumped to a conclusion on this one and will certainly rethink that particular element of the big picture.

That's what research is all about, learning new things and adding a new piece to the puzzle.

 

[dafydd]

I'm wondering how this post was missed by our little friend Revdude.

Apparently reading is not his strong suit...

His only strong suit is hating Jews.

 

[truethat]

Maybe not you personally, but I was responding to someone else and there is a general understanding that people feel Israel is justified due to the Holocaust and Nazi Germany.

Off course all you can do is run away. Even the death toll seems untenable.

No the only people bringing up Israel in this thread so far as I have seen are you guys.

The rest of us have pointed out that these are two entirely different groups of people.

Your argument would be like me saying "I don't like Germans because of Nazi's" Germans alive today were probably not Nazis, not the majority anyway.

Zionism started a long time ago. But although there were certainly people in Germany during WW2 who were probably Zionists, the majority of Jews were not Zionists.

I keep asking you what "poor Jewish peasants, who were non practicing Jews" have to do with all this to the extent that they would be viewed as enemies of the state.

You haven't answered that question.

I don't think people would argue that if aggressive military groups or underground movement anti government Jews were rounded up and put in prison, then this would match what you are saying.

But that is not what happened. They all were rounded up and many of them died as a result of it. This did not happen in the Japanese camps. So what was the difference.

Please explain.

 

[truethat]

The question is if and how many people actually know that or ever even heard of Zionism.

Not me personally. The gas chambers.

You got kicked for the reason of harassing someone and people have been banned from this forum as well.

Any educated person has heard of Zionism.

Your position in this thread has basically been to say that since you were uneducated you assume that most other people are uneducated as well.

This is not true.

Your pattern of behavior has been according to your own statements, that you "heard something" and took it at face value from the person who told it to you.

Then you were shocked to find out there is more to the story. As I showed in the example on Christopher Columbus, many people were "uneducated" about that as well. The thing is, you aren't supposed to take what you learned in 8th grade and keep it on pause as a "TRUTH" for the rest of your life.

You are expected to educate yourself further. Some of the issues involved in what happened during WW2 are too complicated to teach in public school. So in general you get the "basics." For the nuances you need to study on your own.


You are making the same mistake in this line of thinking of Denial. You are hearing more "sound bites" and totally taking them at face value and not examining them further. This is a problem with how you choose to educate yourself. It is not a problem with the "rest of the world" or how history is presented.

There is always more to the story that is easy to discover if you take the chance to educate yourself.


Your "shock" and "gotcha" attitude is only making you look like you only listen to what you are told and never bother to educate yourself further. Thus you are doing the same thing with the "new information" that you did with the "old information.'

You are not thinking. You are letting others do the thinking for you.


One more thing, you are relying on "documents" only to support your claims. And significant documentation is always important of course. However you are denying the statements of WITNESSES that were there.

There are thousands of witnesses who corroborate the statements in history. Do these suddenly not count because they were just "people" who witnessed it?

 

[Wroclaw]

I'm curious to know what our denier contingent thinks about this important SS court judgment from 1943:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/t/taubner.max/ftp.py?people/t/taubner.max//taubner-1943-verdict

The key part quoted here:

The accused shall not be punished because of the actions against
the Jews as such. The Jews have to be exterminated and none of the
Jews that were killed is any great loss. Although the accused should
have recognized that the extermination of the Jews was the duty of
Kommandos which were set up especially for this purpose, he should
be excused for considering himself to have the authority to take
part in the extermination of Jewry himself.

Heard someone on an old radio show mention this one yesterday. Interested to know how you answer...

 

[kageki]

No the only people bringing up Israel in this thread so far as I have seen are you guys.

The rest of us have pointed out that these are two entirely different groups of people.

Your argument would be like me saying "I don't like Germans because of Nazi's" Germans alive today were probably not Nazis, not the majority anyway.

Zionism started a long time ago. But although there were certainly people in Germany during WW2 who were probably Zionists, the majority of Jews were not Zionists.

I keep asking you what "poor Jewish peasants, who were non practicing Jews" have to do with all this to the extent that they would be viewed as enemies of the state.

You haven't answered that question.

I don't think people would argue that if aggressive military groups or underground movement anti government Jews were rounded up and put in prison, then this would match what you are saying.

But that is not what happened. They all were rounded up and many of them died as a result of it. This did not happen in the Japanese camps. So what was the difference.

Please explain.

They didn't differentiate "enemies of the state" and "poor peasants" in the US either. How can you continue to be dishonest about this. It was still not right to have done forced deportations and labor of innocent people off course.

There wasn't a typhus epidemic in the US first of all and the camps would have been much larger at Auschwitz.

Was it even 1.1 million at Auschwitz? Probably not. Just imagine what's involved in gassing all those people and cleaning it up.

 

[Wroclaw]

They didn't differentiate "enemies of the state" and "poor peasants" in the US either. How can you continue to be dishonest about this. It was still not right to have done forced deportations and labor of innocent people off course.

Quit obfuscating the answer the question.

There wasn't a typhus epidemic in the US first of all and the camps would have been much larger at Auschwitz.

All that Zyklon-B — we have the requisition forms so we know there was a lot — and they couldn't control a lice-borne disease? It was not epidemic among the troops. Wonder why that was?

Was it even 1.1 million at Auschwitz? Probably not. Just imagine what's involved in gassing all those people and cleaning it up.

Something like this:

http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/body-disposal/

 

[Thunder]

The sentiments for a Jewish homeland was still there and even the Nazis were discussing it.

yeah, but eventually they decided the Jews were just too harmful for the world to be allowed to keep on existing, so extermination was chosen as the Final Solution.

they did a decent job too, killing off 33% of the World's Jews.

 

[kageki]

Quit obfuscating the answer the question.



All that Zyklon-B — we have the requisition forms so we know there was a lot — and they couldn't control a lice-borne disease? It was not epidemic among the troops. Wonder why that was?



Something like this:

http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/body-disposal/

They say 95% was used for delousing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epidemic_typhus

During World War II typhus struck the German army as it invaded Russia in 1941.[6] In 1942 and 1943 typhus hit French North Africa, Egypt and Iran particularly hard.[13] Typhus epidemics killed inmates in the Nazi Germany concentration camps; infamous pictures of typhus victims' mass graves can be seen in footage shot at Bergen-Belsen concentration camp.[6] Thousands of prisoners held in appalling conditions in Nazi concentration camps such Theresienstadt and Bergen-Belsen also died of typhus during World War II[6], including Anne Frank at the age of 15 and her sister Margot. Even larger epidemics in the post-war chaos of Europe were only averted by the widespread use of the newly discovered DDT to kill the lice on millions of refugees and displaced persons.

That link isn't working right now.

 

[kageki]

yeah, but eventually they decided the Jews were just too harmful for the world to be allowed to keep on existing, so extermination was chosen as the Final Solution.

they did a decent job too, killing off 33% of the World's Jews.

We know that's the allegation.

If other countries didn't reject Jewish immigrants then lots could have been spared from being sent to camps.

What Eichmann said in that interview was that when Weitzmann declared war on behalf of Jewry that Hitler took notice. That doesn't mean "extermination", but it was a war.

You also have Churchill himself saying that Communism was of Jewish origin.

 

[Wroclaw]

They say 95% was used for delousing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epidemic_typhus


That link isn't working right now.

You're not addressing the point. We know how much Zyklon-B was requisitioned because the records still exist. (We even know that it was ordered without the warning odor included — perhaps you can explain why.)

You have yet to explain why, with all that Zyklon-B on hand, people would still be dying of typhus.

Unless, of course, it was being used for something else.

 

[Wroclaw]

If other countries didn't reject Jewish immigrants then lots could have been spared from being sent to camps.

And if the Nazis hadn't arbitrarily declared the Jews to be enemies, then they wouldn't have become refugees.

And if my uncle had t*ts, he'd be my aunt.

What Eichmann said in that interview was that when Weitzmann declared war on behalf of Jewry that Hitler took notice. That doesn't mean "extermination", but it was a war.

Except when you start, you know, exterminating them.

You also have Churchill himself saying that Communism was of Jewish origin.

No, he says that there were several prominent Jewish Bolsheviks, which was true in 1920, when he wrote that.

 

[kageki]

I'm curious to know what our denier contingent thinks about this important SS court judgment from 1943:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/t/taubner.max/ftp.py?people/t/taubner.max//taubner-1943-verdict

The key part quoted here:



Heard someone on an old radio show mention this one yesterday. Interested to know how you answer...

Classic omission first of all. Let's see the whole paragraph:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/t/taubner.max/ftp.py?people/t/taubner.max//taubner-1943-verdict

1. The accused shall not be punished because of the actions against
the Jews as such. The Jews have to be exterminated and none of the
Jews that were killed is any great loss. Although the accused should
have recognized that the extermination of the Jews was the duty of
Kommandos which were set up especially for this purpose, he should
be excused for considering himself to have the authority to take
part in the extermination of Jewry himself. Real hatred of the Jews
was the driving motivation for the accused. In the process he let
himself be drawn into committing cruel actions in Alexandriya which
are unworthy of a German man and an SS-officer. These excesses cannot
be justified, either, as the accused would like to, as retaliation
for the pain that the Jews have caused the German people. It is not
the German way to apply Bolshevic methods during the necessary
extermination of the worst enemy of our people. In so doing the
conduct of the accused gives rise to considerable concern. The
accused allowed his men to act with such vicious brutality that
they conducted themselves under his command like a savage horde...

There is a distinction between flat out anti-semtisim as opposed to hatred of an enemy.

Then there is Alfred Rosenberg's testimony at IMT about the word "extermination".