Merged General Holocaust denial discussion thread

[dafydd]

Your article seems to infer that some believe that the Russian Revolution was a Jewish led war. I don't know one way or the other. What I am talking about is International Finance.
Kuhn, Loeb, and Schiff were the American arm of the Rothschild Banking Family, just as the Warburgs were the German. It was Jacob Schiff that gave Trotsky the money.
Maybe the order came from elsewhere, but he went through Schiff.

Russia seems to have been targeted for some reason. During the 1905 Japan/Russia war, the Rothschilds heavily financed Japan.

When Trotsky set sail for Europe, with the money, he was detained as the ship passed Newfoundland. Allegedly, a personal note from Woodrow Wilson, effected his release.

Perhaps his tenement lifestyle was a cover.

Off topic,we are discussing why people like you deny the obvious fact of the Holocaust.

 

[Wroclaw]

Your article seems to infer that some believe that the Russian Revolution was a Jewish led war.

Correct.

I don't know one way or the other. What I am talking about is International Finance.

I understand that.

Kuhn, Loeb, and Schiff were the American arm of the Rothschild Banking Family, just as the Warburgs were the German. It was Jacob Schiff that gave Trotsky the money.
Maybe the order came from elsewhere, but he went through Schiff.

Repeating a falsehood won't make it true.

If you had bothered to read what I posted, you'd see that Sutton demonstrates where this lie originated and how it was spread.

Russia seems to have been targeted for some reason. During the 1905 Japan/Russia war, the Rothschilds heavily financed Japan.

That's because the Russian tsarist government was openly anti-Semitic, certainly at least since the days of Alexander III.

When Trotsky set sail for Europe, with the money, he was detained as the ship passed Newfoundland. Allegedly, a personal note from Woodrow Wilson, effected his release.

Perhaps his tenement lifestyle was a cover.

And perhaps there was no letter from Wilson either.

Do you believe everything you hear, provided it reflects poorly on Jews?

 

[Revdude]

Correct.



I understand that.



Repeating a falsehood won't make it true.

If you had bothered to read what I posted, you'd see that Sutton demonstrates where this lie originated and how it was spread.



That's because the Russian tsarist government was openly anti-Semitic, certainly at least since the days of Alexander III.



And perhaps there was no letter from Wilson either.

Do you believe everything you hear, provided it reflects poorly on Jews?

I re-read your article.
Interesting, but nothing more than what someone typed on the Internet.
No original documents, nothing else to corroborate the information.
I realize you are grasping at straws here, but look at your last sentence above.

Do you believe everything you hear, provided it reflects poorly on Jews?

To that I would reply, do you believe everything you read, provided it does not reflect poorly on Jews?

It's a given that the role of Jews is downplayed. It's the historical m.o.
As much as you would like your offering to actually prove something, it does not.

 

[Wroclaw]

I re-read your article.

Congratulations.

Interesting, but nothing more than what someone typed on the Internet.

Here is the author:

http://www.antonysutton.com/

Lest you think I am making an illogical appeal to authority, I am, in fact, making an appeal to authority, but not an illogical one. To wit, the author of the piece linked to is a trained historian and well respected at that.

You have not provided any information about the author of the piece you linked to.

I must assume this is either because you know nothing about him or because you know that he is not a trained historian.

No original documents, nothing else to corroborate the information.
I realize you are grasping at straws here

Surely, you jest.

but look at your last sentence above.

Yes, you've become rather transparent.

Sutton demonstrates exactly how the lie that you have yourself repeated originated in the first place. The best you can do to refute that is merely repeat yourself and offer nothing by way of counterevidence in support of your claim.

That is simply pathetic.

To that I would reply, do you believe everything you read, provided it does not reflect poorly on Jews?

I don't think I've demonstrated that particular tendency, as you have the opposite tendency.

It's a given that the role of Jews is downplayed.

Oh, really? Why is that a "given"?

It's the historical m.o.

You are an anti-Semitic fool. No wonder you're a Holocaust denier.

As much as you would like your offering to actually prove something, it does not.

Who is more blind than he who has eyes but refuses to see?

 

[Chaos]

That's not technically true.

The Supreme Court of the United States rules in 1972 that capital punishment was unconstitutional and, thus, illegal.

Everybody serving a death sentence at that time had their sentence commuted. Including, e.g., Charles Manson.

So a legal act (execution) was made illegal.

And the government can (and has and continues to) make formerly illegal acts legal.

Works both ways.

What you refer to isn´t technically retroactive. Those sentences had not been executed yet. The Supreme Court did not, and could not, take steps that the people involved in earlier executions face legal consequences.

The Nazis had a habit of passing laws and then applying these laws retroactively to things that happened before those laws were passed.

For the sake of an example, imagine that arson had not been a crime at the time of the Reichstag Fire. Then if the Nazis passed a law after the fire making arson illegal, they could not prosecute and sentence the arsonist based on that law.

Making illegal things legal is a completely different matter altogether.
It is a principle of the rule of law that citizens must feel certain that if something which is legal at the time when they do it, they can never get be punished for it by a law that retroactively declares that something illegal.
However, the possibility that an illegal act might become legal later on does not present a source of legal insecurity for those acting according to what is legal at the time, hence there is no need to provide legal security.

 

[Thunder]

ok, so why do Holocaust deniers deny the Holocaust?

what is their objective?

 

[Arcade22]

ok, so why do Holocaust deniers deny the Holocaust?

what is their objective?

I think they get sexual pleasure from being attacked and proven wrong all the time.

 

[Revdude]

Jacob Schiff switches from supporting Germany to Russia "Jews made 'Russian' Revolution New York Times May 4, 1917

"A serious time has come upon us, and I am speaking to you in a serious vein." Mr. Schiff said. "Six or eight weeks ago the Jews would have heeded the call to arms as a duty, but with heavy hearts, as they would have known they would be fighting to perpetuate Russian autocracy. But now all that has been changed. Russian democracy has become victorious, and thanks are due to the Jew that the Russian revolution succeeded. If we want to help the Russian people, we must do our duty to assist the land of our adoption.

More New York Times articles

JEWS HERE WILL LEND MONEY TO RUSSIA. Rich and Poor Will Contribute As Evidence Of Their Support.
http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=9F06E3D6153AE433A25751C0A9639C946696D6CF

WARNING TO NEW RUSSIA.; Taft Commends Jewish Efforts for Liberated People.
http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=9E0DE7DD123AE433A25752C1A9639C946696D6CF

Now who is man enough to admit they were wrong?
You Wroclaw?

You man enough to apologize for the personal attack as well?

 

[Nick Terry]

Jacob Schiff switches from supporting Germany to Russia "Jews made 'Russian' Revolution New York Times May 4, 1917

Uh, 'dude, you ARE aware there were TWO revolutions in Russia during 1917?

 

[Wroclaw]

Jacob Schiff switches from supporting Germany to Russia "Jews made 'Russian' Revolution New York Times May 4, 1917

Are you kidding?

You're a rank amateur.

More New York Times articles

JEWS HERE WILL LEND MONEY TO RUSSIA. Rich and Poor Will Contribute As Evidence Of Their Support.
http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=9F06E3D6153AE433A25751C0A9639C946696D6CF

WARNING TO NEW RUSSIA.; Taft Commends Jewish Efforts for Liberated People.
http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=9E0DE7DD123AE433A25752C1A9639C946696D6CF

Thanks for those two more, also from May 1917.

Do you happen to know why any material from before November 1917 is wholly irrelevant?

You don't, do you.

It never ceases to amaze me how ignorant these people are of the very history they seek to impose themselves as experts of.

Now who is man enough to admit they were wrong?

I'm guessing not you.

You Wroclaw?

Yeah, I wasn't wrong.

You man enough to apologize for the personal attack as well?

Nope.

Oh, look: He's angry.

By the way, I just want you to know you just made my freaking day.

 

[Wroclaw]

Uh, 'dude, you ARE aware there were TWO revolutions in Russia during 1917?

Apparently he isn't.

Wow.

I mean, *wow*!

 

[Wroclaw]

Kuhn Loeb gave money to the Kerensky gov't. They withdrew their funding in November 1917, when the Bolsheviks seized power. They did this because they did not support communism.

Repeating a lie won't make it true, no matter how many times you repeat it.

The main funder of the Bolsheviks was the Imperial German government.

I'm wondering how this post was missed by our little friend Revdude.

Apparently reading is not his strong suit...

 

[Walter Ego]

The Methods Of Holocuast Deniers

Pop quiz. How many of these methods have we seen our resident Jew Haters using on this and other threads?

Source: Pierre Vidal-Naquet, A Paper Eichmann - Anatomy of a Lie

The "revisionists," in fact, all more or less share several extremely simple principles.

1. There was no genocide and the instrument symbolizing it, the gas chambers, never existed.

2. The "final solution" was never anything other than the expulsion of the Jews towards eastern Europe.

3. The number of Jewish victims of Nazism is far smaller than has been claimed.

4. Hitler's Germany does not bear the principal responsibility for the Second World War.

5. The principal enemy of the human race during the 1930s and 1940s was not Nazi Germany but Stalin's Soviet Union.

2. The genocide was an invention of Allied propaganda, which was largely Jewish, and specifically Zionist.

----

The principles of revisionist method can in fact be summarized as follows:

Any direct testimony contributed by a Jew is either a lie or a fantasy.

Any testimony or document prior to the Liberation is a forgery or is not acknowledged or is treated as a "rumor."

Any document, in general, with firsthand information concerning the methods of the Nazis is a forgery or has been tampered with.

Any Nazi document bearing direct testimony is taken at face value if it is written in coded language, but unacknowledged (or underinterpreted) if it is written plainly.

Any Nazi testimony after the end of the war - in trials either in the East or in the West, in Warsaw or Cologne, Jerusalem or Nuremberg, in 1945 or 1963, is considered as having been obtained under torture or by intimidation.

A vast pseudotechnical arsenal is mobilized to demonstrate the material impossibility of mass gassings. [e.g., the Lutchener Report]

Formerly, God's existence was proven by the notion that existence was contained in the very concept of God. Such was the famous "ontological proof." It may be said that for the "revisionists," the gas chambers did not exist because nonexistence was one of their attributes

Finally, anything capable of rendering this frightening story acceptable or believable, of establishing its evolution or furnishing terms for comparison is either unacknowledged or falsified.

 

[kageki]

I wish Thunder and others would leave the emotional reactionary comments out because they just distract from the facts. The facts show that the actions were wrong without emotional pleading.






The Jews didn't have a country. And yes Jews do have a history of not being wanted. They have been kicked out of many countries around the world. So have Gypsies. People do not like them at all. It's unfortunate but a fact.

However, how do you get from not liking a group of people to rationalizing their execution?



Yes and again this is wrong. When America did this to the Japanese we were wrong. There may be certain justifications and rationalizing when it comes to understanding the attitudes of the times. However history describes this as wrong. So what the Nazi's did was also wrong. You seem to be trying to justify it using the Japanese, which doesn't work since America has long acknowledged it was wrong to do this.

Also you say "inhospitable" so how many died? This is not to expurgate the actions of the Americans but rather to look at the reality that it IS possible to keep people in a camp for a long period of time WITHOUT 50% of the camp dying on a daily basis.



How were they all a threat to Germany? And I'm glad by the way that you are admitting that they WERE rounded up for being Jewish and targeted for being Jewish. A few pages back you seemed to be saying otherwise.

Also how were the people who were "half Jewish" or some other delineation a threat? People were rounded up just for being Jewish by birth, not for actually being practicing Jews or political people. Are you suggesting that poor uneducated peasants with no Jewish tradition in their lives were ALSO a threat to the state?

And America used the same rationalization to relocate the Native Americans in this country. We were ALSO wrong to do this. So if it is acknowledged that this sort of thing is a violation of the most basic human rights, why do you keep justifying it?



Indeed "they wanted to be "rid" of them" is what we have been arguing. Others are suggesting that it is just a coincidence that the majority of the people killed in Auschwitz were Jewish.






Are we to believe then, that faced with a desired expulsion of the Jews and a reality that no one would take them, that it doesn't seem to you that the Nazi's had decided the best course of action would probably be to just exterminate as many as possible?

When you are adding up the facts you are simply creating the justification in the minds of the Nazis for "getting rid" of the Jews. As was stated, they had no country and no one wanted them and everyone wanted them OUT. So is it just a coincidence that so many died? In camps that were run like death camps?





You posted this why? It seems like you agree that gas chambers were being used.


Also to both of you. You suggest that they were rounded up and put into camps to be a sort of Ghetto. Obviously if they did not intend to kill them, this would be considered a LONG TERM PLAN and PERMANENT SOLUTION. The Jews would live in the Ghetto of the Prison Camps.

Please show me these plans? Where is the funding? Do you honestly think that the Nazi's plan was to put the Jews in these camps forever and ever and let them live there while the German government paid for it??????

Please justify this rationalization.


Also now you can understand why Israel is so important to the Jews. Your entire rationalization is that "No one wanted them and they had nowhere to go so they were considered a threat to the country and this justified imprisoning them in camps."

That's about it in a nutshell and why Jews fight so hard to keep Israel.

Tahdah..........welcome to History 101

That description of a gas chamber execution casts doubt on if it happened at Auschwitz. As far as I know, no one has described the extensive clean up process that is involved in just a single gas chamber execution. Then you are still left with the question of the death toll and capacity of the crematorium.

Zionism started before the Nazis even came into power:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodor_Herzl

Theodor Herzl (May 2, 1860 – July 3, 1904), born Benjamin Ze’ev Herzl, also known as חוֹזֶה הַמְדִינָה, Hozeh HaMedinah, lit. "Visionary of the State" was an Austro-Hungarian journalist and the father of modern political Zionism and in effect the State of Israel.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balfour_Declaration_of_1917

The Balfour Declaration of 1917 (dated 2 November 1917) was a formal statement of policy by the British government stating that

His Majesty's government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country."

 

[Wroclaw]

Zionism started before the Nazis even came into power

That's quite the discovery...

{yawn}

 

[kageki]

That's quite the discovery...

{yawn}

How can you then insinuate that Israel was created because of Nazi Germany? It was already in the works and even the Nazis were planning a homeland. Just not in Palestine.

Besides that the main issue is the gas chambers.

 

[Wroclaw]

How can you then insinuate that Israel was created because of Nazi Germany?

Yeah, I didn't insinuate that. Ever.

It was already in the works and even the Nazis were planning a homeland. Just not in Palestine.

They also investigated Palestine. They found, however, that it was more to their benefit not to alienate the Arab population there.

Besides that the main issue is the gas chambers.

Yeah . . . no it's not.

 

[kageki]

Yeah, I didn't insinuate that. Ever.



They also investigated Palestine. They found, however, that it was more to their benefit not to alienate the Arab population there.



Yeah . . . no it's not.

Maybe not you personally, but I was responding to someone else and there is a general understanding that people feel Israel is justified due to the Holocaust and Nazi Germany.

Off course all you can do is run away. Even the death toll seems untenable.

 

[Wroclaw]

Maybe not you personally, but I was responding to someone else and there is a general understanding that people feel Israel is justified due to the Holocaust and Nazi Germany.

That doesn't mean that Zionism that they don't know that Zionism pre-dated the Holocaust.

Is your thinking always this utterly lacking in logic?

Off course all you can do is run away. Even the death toll seems untenable.

Sorry, run away from you?

Excuse me while I giggle.

Stick around, pal: Your little friend the CODOH moderator kicked me out of there, but I get to say what I like around here...

 

[kageki]

That doesn't mean that Zionism that they don't know that Zionism pre-dated the Holocaust.

Is your thinking always this utterly lacking in logic?



Sorry, run away from you?

Excuse me while I giggle.

Stick around, pal: Your little friend the CODOH moderator kicked me out of there, but I get to say what I like around here...

The question is if and how many people actually know that or ever even heard of Zionism.

Not me personally. The gas chambers.

You got kicked for the reason of harassing someone and people have been banned from this forum as well.