Merged General Holocaust denial discussion thread

[Saggy]

BTW Saggy, any luck finding out about those five-figure massacre sites? Are we going to see you tackle the evidence for them any time soon?

Tackle the evidence? LOL. You find it, I'll tackle it. The fact is there is NO evidence of a SINGLE mass grave of holohoax victims ANYWHERE.

 

[Nick Terry]

Tackle the evidence? LOL. You find it, I'll tackle it.

No, sorry, that's not how it works.

There are literally hundreds of books written on the massacres in the occupied Soviet Union and they sit quite comfortably in libraries around the world; many are in print and can be ordered online or bought in good bookstores. These books refer in turn to 100s of journal articles and 1000s of documents along with the results of 1000s of investigations and trials, totalling millions of pages of unpublished materials.

The results of all this work to identify and investigate the massacres in the occupied Soviet Union are, of course, summarised on the internet on a number of different websites.

Naturally, the 5-figure massacres are mentioned very prominently in all of this material, so it does not take an especially large effort to identify where they were.

Pretty much anyone who is genuinely familiar with the subject would probably be able to name at least half of the 5-figure massacres off the top of their head.

But you, it seems, cannot. Ergo you are obviously not genuinely familiar with the subject.

Google, and all it can bring, is thataway ----->

The fact is there is NO evidence of a SINGLE mass grave of holohoax victims ANYWHERE.

Really? How do you KNOW this? Are you sure?

As you are not even able to name the 5-figure massacres you have no way of knowing what evidence there might be for them.

 

[Saggy]

No, sorry, that's not how it works.

There are literally hundreds of books written on the massacres in the occupied Soviet Union and they sit quite comfortably in libraries around the world; many are in print and can be ordered online or bought in good bookstores. These books refer in turn to 100s of journal articles and 1000s of documents along with the results of 1000s of investigations and trials, totalling millions of pages of unpublished materials.

The results of all this work to identify and investigate the massacres in the occupied Soviet Union are, of course, summarised on the internet on a number of different websites.

Naturally, the 5-figure massacres are mentioned very prominently in all of this material, so it does not take an especially large effort to identify where they were.

Pretty much anyone who is genuinely familiar with the subject would probably be able to name at least half of the 5-figure massacres off the top of their head.

But you, it seems, cannot. Ergo you are obviously not genuinely familiar with the subject.

Google, and all it can bring, is thataway ----->



Really? How do you KNOW this? Are you sure?

As you are not even able to name the 5-figure massacres you have no way of knowing what evidence there might be for them.

I also don't know the names of the aliens that supposedly landed near Rostow on May 14, 1957, and, you guessed it, I am not familiar with the evidence for their appearance. So sue me !

 

[R.A.F.]

Tackle the evidence? LOL. You find it, I'll tackle it. The fact is there is NO evidence of a SINGLE mass grave of holohoax victims ANYWHERE.

Sorry, Saggy, but you've got it backwards. Weither you like it or not, the holocaust is established historical fact, making your claim that it didn't happen an extraordinary claim, meaning that THE ONUS IS ON YOU to prove yourself correct.

Yet all you can come up with is a transparent attempt to shift the burden of proof away from yourself.

...and just why again are we supposed to believe you???

 

[R.A.F.]

...that supposedly landed near Rostow on May 14, 1957...

You don't know the name of the town, and your timeline is off by 10 years.

Are the rest of your "investigations" this "sloppy"?

 

[Nick Terry]

I also don't know the names of the aliens that supposedly landed near Rostow on May 14, 1957, and, you guessed it, I am not familiar with the evidence for their appearance. So sue me !

But we're not discussing aliens landing in 1957, we're discussing your claim that there are 'there is NO evidence of a SINGLE mass grave of holohoax victims ANYWHERE'.

How do you KNOW this?

If you cannot even name the 5-figure massacres then you do not seem very well informed about the subject.

 

[Saggy]

But we're not discussing aliens landing in 1957, we're discussing your claim that there are 'there is NO evidence of a SINGLE mass grave of holohoax victims ANYWHERE'.

How do you KNOW this?

If you cannot even name the 5-figure massacres then you do not seem very well informed about the subject.

You continue to miss the point. I'm not at all 'well informed' about the particulars of the UFO idiocy. It doesn't matter, it is preposterous to begin with and there is not a single piece of credible evidence for it, so I don't feel any great need to do additional research.

Same thing with the holohoax. I've read the 'eyewitnesses', Weirnik, Weisel, Meuller, Bomba, and I know from that that the holocaust is a degenerate hoax. I've reviewed Hoess's 'confession' and his role as a DEFENSE witness at Nuremberg. I've read Butz's book, and Hilberg's book as well. I know more than I need to to. Plus, I get to see the endless idiocy of posters like yourself, and worse, LOL, here on the net.

 

[Saggy]

You don't know the name of the town, and your timeline is off by 10 years.

Are the rest of your "investigations" this "sloppy"?

Roswell? 67? Fill us in, you'll be the Nick Terry of the UFO hoax.

 

[Nick Terry]

You continue to miss the point. I'm not at all 'well informed' about the particulars of the UFO idiocy. It doesn't matter, it is preposterous to begin with and there is not a single piece of credible evidence for it, so I don't feel any great need to do additional research.

Same thing with the holohoax. I've read the 'eyewitnesses', Weirnik, Weisel, Meuller, Bomba, and I know from that that the holocaust is a degenerate hoax. I've reviewed Hoess's 'confession' and his role as a DEFENSE witness at Nuremberg. I've read Butz's book, and Hilberg's book as well. I know more than I need to to. Plus, I get to see the endless idiocy of posters like yourself, and worse, LOL, here on the net.

Saggy, alas it's you who have been spectacularly missing the point.

I asked you a relatively simple question, to name the 5-figure massacres in the occupied Soviet Union. You have previously named just one such massacre, Babi Yar. There are others - now you claim to have read Hilberg, if you had read him properly you'd know the names of several.

None of the witnesses you name had anything to do with the massacres in the occupied Soviet Union. Their credibility in your eyes cannot have anything to do with that phenomenon.

Your claim was that 'there is NO evidence of a SINGLE mass grave of holohoax victims ANYWHERE'.

You still haven't explained how you KNOW this. You cannot possibly KNOW this for a fact just from reading five witness testimonies from the death camps. You also cannot possibly KNOW this from Butz BECAUSE HE DOES NOT EVEN MENTION MASS GRAVES IN HIS BOOK.

You cannot even know this from Hilberg because he was just one author out of several thousand who has written on the subject, and because MOST AUTHORS NO MATTER WHAT THE GENOCIDE OR MASS KILLING DO NOT DISCUSS MASS GRAVES.

See, contrary to denier delusion, mass graves are not the sine qua non for writing about Stalinism, the Armenian genocide, Cambodia, or the Nazis. They are in fact, rather repellent to write about and thus are left to specialists to discuss.

So the actual answer is - you do not know what evidence exists relating to mass graves. You haven't bothered to find out, because it's "self-evident" according to you that there were none. But you have absolutely no grounds for saying this, as you never bothered to find out.

Thank you very much for proving that Holocaust denial is all about faith and has nothing whatsoever to do with evidence or knowledge. Your worldview is based on an entirely circular argument.

You prove this over and over and over again when you post here. And people mock you for it, justifiably so. You are totally ineffective as an evangelist for your cause.

 

[Dogzilla]

No one in the world would have prosecuted you for finding Kaatje Wurms and re-uniting her with her brother. They were both real people. So was Erich Fuchs, the man who installed some of the machinery to kill in Sobibor.

Kaatje Wurms. In Memoriam.

Reuniting friends and family isn't illegal anywhere. Even if they're real people.

 

[Dogzilla]

This is what you are trying to use to challenge the Holocaust? It's a seriously stupid ploy. That out of all the memoirs there are some that are BS? That many members of the public, who don't know much about the Holocaust, believe dodgy memoirs while scholars, who know a great deal about the Holocaust, don't? Pathetic.

The reason why scholars don't use suspect memoirs is that they have checked many, many sources, of a variety of types, and cross-checked them and interrogated them, by which they weed out, or critique, that which won't stand up to scrutiny. Like the memory of a President of the US who recalls filming Nazi concentration camps at a time he was making Army training films stateside. Or fake heroes of Vietnam. This work goes on all the time in historical study but seems to elude deniers who fixate on single points of BS which the historians have already ignored or debunked.

Not all historians agree on every source, and their debates over such matters also help separate wheat from chaff.

None of this prevents deniers from ignoring the revisionist work of historians--to take one example, Clayton Moore keeps up with 6 million dead when most historians estimate a lower figure, for example, Hilberg calculating 5.1 million Jewish deaths--and trying to score points in their game of solitaire using sources that do not figure in the articulation of the history they deny.

Well maybe the discussion should be the disconnect between the "scholars" version of the holocaust and the public perception of the holocaust. If the great unwashed believes the holocaust to be one thing while all the intellectual elite know it to be something else, why aren't the intellectual elite doing anything to properly educate the public? Every historical event has it's share of hair brained eyewitnesses but I've never seen nor heard of, e.g., a soldier during the Vietnam war say he escaped from a POW prison and survived by being adopted by wolves. Mischa was so obviously a fraud it should never have gotten off the ground. And we still have mini-Mischas traveling the holocaust lecture circuit today. Irene Zisblatt and Dennis Avery are two that I can think of off the top of my head.

By your logic, there wouldn't be any problem with creationism, or intelligent design, or whatever it's called these days being taught in public schools because all the in-the-know ivory tower elite know that evolution is a far better explanation for how we got where we are.

And as far as the six million goes, I'd like to see a public figure get away with saying anything else. When the Pope said "millions" while speaking in Israel, Rabbi Lau slammed him for not say "six." Even saying six million Jews weren't gassed will get you labelled a holocaust denier even though nobody has ever said that six million Jews were murdered in gas chambers.

 

[Dogzilla]

(12)

What?

 

[Dogzilla]

You wheeled this one out before, and were called on it before. It is a deeply illogical argument.

The 4 million figure was based on a calculation of cremation/killing capacity and not on any evidence of deportation. Thus the 3 million difference never existed. By contrast, the 3 million Jewish deportees most certainly did exist.

Thus your answer is a non-answer. Try again.

Yes, of course I know they never existed. And, yes, I know I wheeled it out before...when somebody else wheeled out the idiotic 'where did they go if they weren't murdered?' line of reasoning. The Auschwitz death toll is the answer to anybody who asks where did a nonspecific number of holocaust victims go if they weren't murdered. I suppose Madjanek could also be used but Auschwitz has much higher awareness.

The fact that the Soviets used estimated crematorium capacity doesn't matter. It was the official Auschwitz state museum death toll until 1988 or so. Scholars might not have believed it but it was the number that was reported in the popular press whenever an Auschwitz death toll was reported. It's foundation was bogus but only slightly more so than today's current rage of estimating numbers murdered by the numbers deported.

 

[Dogzilla]

The 4 million figure, like all the others, was not based on a calculation of cremation/killing capacity, it was pure fantasy, straight from the Jewish World Congress.

Actually I don't think the JWC had anything to do with the death toll at any specific camps. It was the Soviets who came up with the four million at Auschwitz.

 

[Nick Terry]

Well maybe the discussion should be the disconnect between the "scholars" version of the holocaust and the public perception of the holocaust. If the great unwashed believes the holocaust to be one thing while all the intellectual elite know it to be something else, why aren't the intellectual elite doing anything to properly educate the public? .

There's a disconnect between university-level and popular comprehension of pretty much every subject you care to name. In some cases, because of competing ideas, in others, because people just are that stupid.

What percentage is it again of the American public that denies the theory of evolution? And how many books are there on the market written by scientists explaining the theory of evolution in a relatively accessible way?

Come on, tell us what else "the intellectual elite" can do to properly educate the public about the theory of evolution.

Every historical event has it's share of hair brained eyewitnesses but I've never seen nor heard of, e.g., a soldier during the Vietnam war say he escaped from a POW prison and survived by being adopted by wolves. Mischa was so obviously a fraud it should never have gotten off the ground. And we still have mini-Mischas traveling the holocaust lecture circuit today. Irene Zisblatt and Dennis Avery are two that I can think of off the top of my head.

But these characters inhabit a totally different universe to university historians. They are interviewed usually in the local media or on programs that historians are unlikely to watch, and then publish memoirs which don't get reviewed in academic journals because they are not sent to the relevant journals. There is no media monitoring team in academia which checks up on the reliability of memoirs on any subject. It is largely down to the journalists and popular non-university press publishers to do their due diligence, and obviously this doesn't always happen.

In the case of Misha Defoncesca, there were journalists already expressing doubts from the get-go - Henryk Broder in Germany to name one example, before the book was even published. But the one-woman publishing house went ahead anyway, ignoring the criticisms of academic historians who also set the alarm bells ringing before publication.

The book never sold many copies in the US, further lessening the chance of criticism. To my knowledge it was never formally published in the UK although it was probably available via amazon. The real success was in France and Belgium. Blink and you'd miss it - until the book was exposed as a fraud, I'd never even heard of it.

By your logic, there wouldn't be any problem with creationism, or intelligent design, or whatever it's called these days being taught in public schools because all the in-the-know ivory tower elite know that evolution is a far better explanation for how we got where we are.

Bad example, because creationist campaigning has excluded teaching of the theory of evolution from many high school textbooks used in America, lest the classes cause 'controversy' among fundamentalist Christian parents.

And as far as the six million goes, I'd like to see a public figure get away with saying anything else. When the Pope said "millions" while speaking in Israel, Rabbi Lau slammed him for not say "six." Even saying six million Jews weren't gassed will get you labelled a holocaust denier even though nobody has ever said that six million Jews were murdered in gas chambers

Indeed, so why would anyone ever say 'six million weren't gassed' unless they were a bone-ignorant Holocaust denier like Bishop Williamson? No public figure is ever going to say 'well, not all were gassed' because it's utterly irrelevant information for a public speech.

 

[Nick Terry]

Yes, of course I know they never existed. And, yes, I know I wheeled it out before...when somebody else wheeled out the idiotic 'where did they go if they weren't murdered?' line of reasoning. The Auschwitz death toll is the answer to anybody who asks where did a nonspecific number of holocaust victims go if they weren't murdered. I suppose Madjanek could also be used but Auschwitz has much higher awareness.

The fact that the Soviets used estimated crematorium capacity doesn't matter. It was the official Auschwitz state museum death toll until 1988 or so. Scholars might not have believed it but it was the number that was reported in the popular press whenever an Auschwitz death toll was reported. It's foundation was bogus but only slightly more so than today's current rage of estimating numbers murdered by the numbers deported.

None of which constitutes an answer to the very simple question, what happened to the deportees? The current accepted account can explain this. You guys cannot. You don't even try.

The rest of your post just burbles on having side-stepped the question. It's patently transparent and utterly pathetic. It's also why Holocaust deniers are not taken seriously by intelligent people.

 

[Nick Terry]

Well maybe the discussion should be the disconnect between the "scholars" version of the holocaust and the public perception of the holocaust. If the great unwashed believes the holocaust to be one thing while all the intellectual elite know it to be something else, why aren't the intellectual elite doing anything to properly educate the public?

By your logic, there wouldn't be any problem with creationism, or intelligent design, or whatever it's called these days being taught in public schools because all the in-the-know ivory tower elite know that evolution is a far better explanation for how we got where we are.

Your post deserves a second response because of the bolded bits.

On what grounds are you denying historians of the Holocaust the title of scholar? Is that in comparison to historians of other periods and other outbreaks of mass violence or just because you feel the need to belittle historians to make yourself feel better?

Why do you resort to anti-intellectualism by referring to "the intellectual elite" and the "ivory tower elite"? It seems like you have a problem with university academics in general caused by some unspecified and no doubt unfounded resentment.

 

[Corsair 115]

I also don't know the names of the aliens that supposedly landed near Rostow on May 14, 1957...

You don't know the name of the town, and your timeline is off by 10 years.

Are the rest of your "investigations" this "sloppy"?

Indeed. The phrase, "hoist with his own petard" comes to mind.

 

[MG1962]

Tackle the evidence? LOL. You find it, I'll tackle it. The fact is there is NO evidence of a SINGLE mass grave of holohoax victims ANYWHERE.

How is my evidence going. Remember you were going to tell me all about that international forensic team in Russia that was mistaken for Nazis burning bodies

 

[Wroclaw]

when somebody else wheeled out the idiotic 'where did they go if they weren't murdered?' line of reasoning

Why is it idiotic? It's a very fair question.