Merged General Holocaust denial discussion thread

[A'isha]

So, I am still waiting to watch or verify any SCIENTIFIC document which proves that gassing was used in broad rage to exterminate people in German concentration camps.

What do you consider a "SCIENTIFIC" document? Can you provide an example of such a document that you accept as probative for the historicity of any other even vaguely comparable wartime event (such as, oh, say, something about the people killed during the Allied firebombing of Dresden, to select something purely at random), so we can see the sort of thing you're looking for?

 

[LemmyCaution]

Link

Oh and could someone please explain to me, why everyone is wasting their time with Clayton? No really, I don't get it,

Point well taken. I cannot think of a good reason.

 

[SnakeTongue]

Read the thread. Such evidence has been provided. Over and over and over again.

It is as 250 page thread. Could you show me where is?

The video is just a succint way of showing that it happened.

No, it is not. That itself do not prove that happened.

It might also help if you defined what kind of evidence you would accept. If you require the Germans to have video cameras in the gas chambers for you to accept that it happened, we can all just put you on ignore and be done with it.

Why is so difficult to find a picture or a video of German workers taking dead bodies out of a supposed gas chamber? Where is footages showing German workers carrying dead bodies to a crematorium? Perhaps a picture or a document from a scientist performing an examination on the supposed gassed dead bodies?

That means, direct and credible evidence from the supposed exterminators.

I have been doing military research about World War II and I really know how much the Germans registered and planned everything. They were extremely organized, so there must be a kind of direct evidence which shows how the whole plan of mass extermination, the so called "final solution", was designed.

So, where is the evidence?

 

[LemmyCaution]

Why is so difficult to find a picture or a video of German workers taking dead bodies out of a supposed gas chamber? Where is footages showing German workers carrying dead bodies to a crematorium?

German workers didn't do these tasks, so finding a photograph or video [sic] of German workers performing these tasks would indeed be very difficult. Dealing with the corpses was a duty assigned to mostly Jewish prisoners. More to the point, what leads you to expect that mass murder would be documented in photos and videos [sic]?

There is in fact some film footage of very early shootings in Latvia (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6OLucjLE8Q&feature=player_embedded), at Skede beach, and many photographs in the less controlled environment of the eastern open-air shootings exist. Members of the Birkenau Sonderkommando smuggled a camera into the camp and made some photos of bodies being cremated (scroll down in this link http://www.ghwk.de/2006-neu/room14-2.htm).

 

[SnakeTongue]

What do you consider a "SCIENTIFIC" document? Can you provide an example of such a document that you accept as probative for the historicity of any other even vaguely comparable wartime event (such as, oh, say, something about the people killed during the Allied firebombing of Dresden, to select something purely at random), so we can see the sort of thing you're looking for?

based on or characterized by the methods and principles of science:
the scientific study of earthquakes
relating to or used in science:
scientific instruments
informal systematic; methodical:
how many people buy food in an organized, scientific way?

http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/scientific?region=us&q=scientific

 

[uke2se]

It is as 250 page thread. Could you show me where is?

Nope. You can do your own legwork.

No, it is not. That itself do not prove that happened.

Read what I said.

Why is so difficult to find a picture or a video of German workers taking dead bodies out of a supposed gas chamber? Where is footages showing German workers carrying dead bodies to a crematorium? Perhaps a picture or a document from a scientist performing an examination on the supposed gassed dead bodies?

That means, direct and credible evidence from the supposed exterminators.

So, for you to accept the holocaust, you require pictures showing German (how you can determine the nationality of a person from a picture is unclear) workers (?) carrying dead bodies to a crematorium (which means you get to fibble about if a picture is actually showing a crematorium or not).

Right.

Ignore seems like the best option.

I have been doing military research about World War II and I really know how much the Germans registered and planned everything. They were extremely organized, so there must be a kind of direct evidence which shows how the whole plan of mass extermination, the so called "final solution", was designed.

So, where is the evidence?

It's in this thread and in the many books about the holocaust. I get the feeling that your "research" is limited to google and youtube. Try branching into actual literature. That would require you to either buy books online or to take out a interlibrary loan.

ETA: a google image search for "holocaust dead bodies" might fullfill your morbid fantasy of seeing dead bodies.

 

[uke2se]

based on or characterized by the methods and principles of science:
the scientific study of earthquakes
relating to or used in science:
scientific instruments
informal systematic; methodical:
how many people buy food in an organized, scientific way?

http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/scientific?region=us&q=scientific

Can you meet the challenge set out for you in the post you quoted?

 

[A'isha]

based on or characterized by the methods and principles of science:
the scientific study of earthquakes
relating to or used in science:
scientific instruments
informal systematic; methodical:
how many people buy food in an organized, scientific way?

http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/scientific?region=us&q=scientific

Again, what document for another, similar wartime event do you accept as evidence for that event according to the above criteria, that you can show as an example of the sort of thing you're looking for here?

And if you've been studying WWII military history, why are you so insistent on video documentation (and such specific video documentation too)? Very few historians of WWII, especially military historians, even rely on video footage, much less demand things like video evidence of Easy Company actually fighting off German assaults in the Ardennes to prove the Battle of Bulge happened.

 

[SnakeTongue]

German workers didn't do these tasks, so finding a photograph or video [sic] of German workers performing these tasks would indeed be very difficult. Dealing with the corpses was a duty assigned to mostly Jewish prisoners.

So? Where is the evidence which prove your assertion? Where is the pictures or footages of prisoners being forced to remove and carry the dead gassed bodies?

More to the point, what leads you to expect that mass murder would be documented in photos and videos [sic]?

Murder? Who is speaking about murder here? The subject is a supposed mass extermination did by gas inhalation.

There is in fact some film footage of very early shootings in Latvia (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6OLucjLE8Q&feature=player_embedded), at Skede beach, and many photographs in the less controlled environment of the eastern open-air shootings exist. Members of the Birkenau Sonderkommando smuggled a camera into the camp and made some photos of bodies being cremated (scroll down in this link http://www.ghwk.de/2006-neu/room14-2.htm).

Contradiction: above you question why I should expect pictures and videos from mass extermination, but here you present evidence of an execution taking place.

So a question arise: if there is plenty of evidence of executions, why there should not be evidence of mass extermination?

 

[uke2se]

So? Where is the evidence which prove your assertion? Where is the pictures or footages of prisoners being forced to remove and carry the dead gassed bodies?

It's in this thread and in the holocaust literature. Nobody has to show you anything as you seem unwilling to educate yourself.

Murder? Who is speaking about murder here? The subject is a supposed mass extermination did by gas inhalation.

Which would be murder (of the "mass" kind).

Contradiction: above you question why I should expect pictures and videos from mass extermination, but here you present evidence of an execution taking place.

Where's the contradiction?

So a question arise: if there is plenty of evidence of executions, why there should not be evidence of mass extermination?

There is.

 

[A'isha]

So? Where is the evidence which prove your assertion? Where is the pictures or footages of prisoners being forced to remove and carry the dead gassed bodies?

Why are you so insistent on "pictures and footage" of this? And why about such specific, specific details? Don't you know how historiography works?

Murder? Who is speaking about murder here? The subject is a supposed mass extermination did by gas inhalation.

And what, exactly, is the difference between "mass murder" and "mass extermination"?

Contradiction: above you question why I should expect pictures and videos from mass extermination, but here you present evidence of an execution taking place.

Why are you under the assumption that the Nazis filmed all of their genocidal executions? Why isn't the fact that they filmed at least some of them, combined with the other physical and archival and testimonial and other evidence, enough for you? And do you think that video and picture evidence is the only method for determining whether any given historical event happened, especially one as large and as complicated as the Holocaust?

So a question arise: if there is plenty of evidence of executions, why there should not be evidence of mass extermination?

There is.

 

[SnakeTongue]

Nope. You can do your own legwork.

Read what I said.

Look like you cannot provide what I ask.

So, for you to accept the holocaust, you require pictures showing German (how you can determine the nationality of a person from a picture is unclear) workers (?) carrying dead bodies to a crematorium (which means you get to fibble about if a picture is actually showing a crematorium or not).

Right.

If you cannot provide the evidence, just remain quiet. Fallacies are not going to replace the lack of evidence.

Ignore seems like the best option.

Feel free. I am not begging your attention. This only proves that you cannot provide the required evidence.

It's in this thread and in the many books about the holocaust. I get the feeling that your "research" is limited to google and youtube. Try branching into actual literature. That would require you to either buy books online or to take out a interlibrary loan.

I am asking evidence: samples, picture, videos, documents, etc.

Not books.

ETA: a google image search for "holocaust dead bodies" might fullfill your morbid fantasy of seeing dead bodies.

Another fallacy.

Again, that do not answer any of my questions, which again prove that you cannot provide the evidence of a mass extermination supposed designed by the Germans during the WWII.

You are failing.

 

[LemmyCaution]

Oh my. There is more evidence than "pictures or footages": you have been pointed to this thread, for starters. There is no account I know of which has Germans doing what you ask to see them doing.

I dealt with the apparent contradiction in my post: in the controlled camp, discipline and enforcement of the rules - against photographing the murder process, for example, were stringent, while in the "less controlled" open air shootings, breaches of discipline occurred. If you had checked either of the links I provided, you would have read that the images in question were not authorized. Making such images, again, was somewhat possible in the open-air shootings and nearly impossible in the camps, accounting for your apparent contradiction.

Are you familiar with the judgment of the SS and Police Supreme Court, Munich, in the case of Max Taubner?

To untangle your post, there are many photos taken against the rules of open air mass exterminations - Google can be your friend for these; there are not such photos taken in the camps. The Birkenau SK made some, illegally, of course.

As to your sophistry concerning murder and mass extermination, are you trying to make the argument that mass shootings and mass gassings are not murders?

 

[tsig]

Could anyone point me where I can find evidence of people being kill inside a gas chamber (from 1939 to 1945 in German controlled facilities)? I have been looking for pictures, videos, documents, but I cannot find anything in the Internet. I know the German were very methodical and registered everything.

I also looking for someone which could show how to calculate the necessary time to gas and burn an average human body.

No one here is your research assistant.

I did not require anyone to perform such role.

See hilited

 

[SnakeTongue]

So, where is the evidence?

All you have being try to divert the subject and I not going to follow.

Where is the evidence of a planned "final solution"?

Where is the evidence of dead gassed bodies?

Where is the evidence?

If you cannot provide the evidence, do not waste your time questioning my reasons or the kind of evidence I want. That is irrelevant and will not replace the lack of evidence to prove the supposed mass extermination did by the Germans during the second world war.

 

[uke2se]

Look like you cannot provide what I ask.

You need to learn the difference between "cannot" and "can't be arsed".

If you cannot provide the evidence, just remain quiet. Fallacies are not going to replace the lack of evidence.

The only fallacies here are yours. There is no lack of evidence.

Feel free. I am not begging your attention. This only proves that you cannot provide the required evidence.

No, it doesn't prove that. What your posts actually proves is that you're just another denier who knows jack squat about the subject he's vehemently trying to deny.

I am asking evidence: samples, picture, videos, documents, etc.

Not books.

Jesus wept.

You might want to look inside the books.

Another fallacy.

You keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means.

Again, that do not answer any of my questions, which again prove that you cannot provide the evidence of a mass extermination supposed designed by the Germans during the WWII.

I don't care about proving anything to you. You're just another denier in a long line of deniers. People who matter are able to take what I and others have posted and do their own research. You aren't, because you're ideologically obliged to disbelieve the holocaust. That's why you don't matter.

You are failing.

If this is me failing, I don't think anybody would want to see when I'm succeeding. It would be so awesome you could go blind.

 

[uke2se]

So, where is the evidence?

All you have being try to divert the subject and I not going to follow.

Where is the evidence of a planned "final solution"?

Where is the evidence of dead gassed bodies?

Where is the evidence?

It's in this thread and in the many books about the holocaust. Given your earlier posts, you seem unfamilliar with this invention. Free hint: a book requires you to read the pages inside, not simply the cover.

If you cannot provide the evidence, do not waste your time questioning my reasons or the kind of evidence I want. That is irrelevant and will not replace the lack of evidence to prove the supposed mass extermination did by the Germans during the second world war.

 

[A'isha]

You can start here and here, SnakeTongue.

 

[Matthew Ellard]

I have been doing military research about World War II and I really know how much the Germans registered and planned everything. They were extremely organized

Rubbish. If you had picked up any basic book on the German military you would know your statement is complete rubbish. Their tank development program was a complete mess, German troops entered Russia in summer uniforms and so on...remember....they lost the war. Germans are no different to anyone else on this planet.

Can you link me to a video of Hutus mudering people in 1994. You know the Rawandan massacre where 800,000 people were killed in less than half a year. Are you denying this massacre as well?

PS I enjoyed your request for a German WWII video considering video recording was invented in 1951. You do know when WWII was don't you?

 

[LemmyCaution]

So SnakeTongue, who comes here spouting the nonsense stereotype that the Germans were highly organized and documented everything, will accept as evidence just the following: "I am asking evidence: samples, picture, videos, documents, etc."

Yet, according to Lectlaw.com,

In law, [evidence is] various things presented in court for the purpose of proving or disproving a question under inquiry. Includes testimony, documents, photographs, maps and video tapes.

Trial evidence consists of:

1. The sworn testimony of witnesses, on both direct and cross-examination, regardless of who called the witness; 2. The exhibits which have been received into evidence; and Any facts to which all the lawyers have agreed or stipulated.

Historians, as is well known, work with records and documents, correspondence, diaries, laws, charters and legal documents, news media, pamphlets and posters, announcements and proclamations, data, eyewitness evidence, indirect witnesses, maps, photographs, drawings, physical remains, oral tradition, literary works, and so on. Like this: http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/

This isn't the sort of thing (careful research, comparison of sources and secondary works, etc) that SnakeTongue will accept as evidence, however.

SnakeTongue only wants to discuss photographs and film footage - where, prima facie, photographs and film footage were nearly impossible to make.

And wants to be taken seriously.

Inane.