Merged General Holocaust denial discussion thread

[BravesFan]

If they knew they would not have gone. Period. End of story.

yeah well the business end of many guns has a way of creating incentive


So, no matter how many Holocaust VIPs are blatant liars, that's hunky dory with you and your historian heroes?


Their side has evidence to back up their claims, your side has lies and made up stories, all driven by an ani jewish agenda.

I wouldn't know where to begin as the whole site is a lie. A lie to keep the Holocaust cash cow alive.

Believing in this doesn't make you special, it doesn't hurt the JOOS , it just makes you look ignorant


Yes. They are all lies or ridiculous exaggerations.

this is code for "i have no response to the statements made so I will just hand wave them all away with no evidence"

 

[BaaBaa]

You're standing up for Nazis, not speaking Truth To Power.

 

[Clayton Moore]

You're standing up for Nazis, not speaking Truth To Power.

I'm speaking that the Holocaust was a big whooping lie. If a million Jewish children, women, and men had been killed in gas chambers in Poland the other 2 million Jewish children, women, and men who were supposedly gassed to death would have never gone to the Polish camps no matter what the threat.

The Holocaust believers are saying that the European Jewish people were stupid. We know that was never true, don't we?

 

[Clayton Moore]

Continuing with Wolf Gruner's so-called "cushioning" thesis, Gruner describes the launching of Aktion Reinhard in spring 1942 as the "mass annihilation of Polish Jews" commencing at Belzec, the death camp that began operating on 17 March with victims deported there from Lublin.

On that very day, a German official in Lublin, Fritz Reuter, summarized an order from Hermann Hofle writing that "1. It would be useful, at the departure station, to separate the Jewish transports destined for the Lublin district [location of Belzec] into Jews fit for utilization and those unfit for utilization. . . . 2. Jews unfit for utilization go to Belzec. . . . ," while those fit for labor would be sent to work camp.

In the latter part of March also about 15,000 Jews were sent to Belzec from Lwow (Lemberg) for extermination, according to Gruner. Deportations carried out by the SS in Galicia, however, paused in April as Jews in the area were assigned to various work assignments.

In May, as Aktion Reinhard continued, Himmler temporarily exempted Jews aged 16 to 35 from deportation to the death camps ("Jews and Jewesses aged 16 to 32 who are capable of work are to be excluded from special measures until further notice. These Jews are to be put to work en bloc KZ or labour camp," Himmler instructed in a general order). These Jews were held back from the general murder program and assigned for the time being to armaments projects or other work in support of the German war effort.

(By June 10s of 1000s of Jews were being deported to Belzec and Sobibor for extermination.)

Gruner cites a statement of the GG labor commissioner, Max Frauendorfer, at a meeting held 22 June that these working Jews were "not actually exempted from SS operations but [would be left] to work for the duration of the war." In other words, some work-capable Jews were held back from the SS extermination action in order to work supporting the war effort and to be dealt with later, when their labor would no longer be so important. Such workers were supplied to war critical industries, road construction, etc., as well as to the military.

In summer, on 19 July, Himmler went further, ordering that all Jews not taken to the death camps be moved by year's end into either a series of SS controlled labor camps or concentrated in working ghettos (Warsaw, Krakow, Lublin, Radom). This order made clear that Jews in the area were either to be killed in an Aktion Reinhard camp or put to work for as long as they were needed in a forced labor situation. (Conditions of labor were themselves nearly lethal, claiming many lives, in all such camps and other operations during this period, as Gruner makes clear.)

It is these considerations that lead Gruner to conclude that Aktion Reinhard "extended not only to annihilation of the Jews and resale of their property but also - and this has remained unnoticed - to exploitation of Jews workers," p 258, until such time they became either incapable of work, through exploitation, or were no longer needed.

By fall 1942, as Warsaw's ghetto was being stripped of all but essential workers, authorities in the GG estimated that there were 1 million "commercial workers," according to Gruner, and of these about a third were still Jews, of whom 100,000 were skilled craftsmen. The killing program in the GG proceeded, then, by means of planning among the authorities that recognized economic needs and provided for them, even while annihilating 100s of 1000s of Jews. And these surviving Jews were not planned to live for long, as the fall 1943 Harvest Festival Operation, in which the SS murdered over 40,000 Jewish laborers in SS work-camps, would show.

Clearly, after 500,000 or 1,000,000 Jewish children, women, and men were killed, the Jewish populations of the camps would be hysterical and in a state of panic to the point that no meaningful work would be available to support Germany's need for reliable labor.

A person doesn't need to read any Holocaust garbage propaganda book to figure that out.

 

[Humanzee]

Not stupid. Confined, subjugated and lied too but not stupid. Way to conflate tho.

 

[Clayton Moore]

Not stupid. Confined, subjugated and lied too but not stupid. Way to conflate tho.

Oh please. You can't intimidate/lure people who know you are going to kill their family, their children.

 

[LemmyCaution]

If they knew they would not have gone. Period. End of story.

The victims were not told the truth about where they were going; in fact, the Germans made efforts to disguise the purpose of transports and death camps. Nonetheless, some people figured it out - and, imagine this, their responses varied, with some trying to hide, some escaping, some giving up to superior power, some resisting.

So, no matter how many Holocaust VIPs are blatant liars, that's hunky dory with you and your historian heroes?

Of course, some of the evidence I cited was Nazi documentation, not "Holocaust VIPs," whatever you mean by that phrase.

Back to the topic: do you now admit that Gruner's book has nothing to do with cushioning things and is a frank discussion of the role of forced, separate labor for Jews in Nazi Judenpolitik, which also discusses the relation of forced labor to the Final Solution? Or, despite your not having read the back and my short summaries of portions of it, do you continue to insist that Gruner is backing off the Holocaust?

Clearly, after 500,000 or 1,000,000 Jewish children, women, and men were killed, the Jewish populations of the camps would be hysterical and in a state of panic to the point that no meaningful work would be available to support Germany's need for reliable labor.

You are not making clear what your point is or your reference is to. During 1943, significant episodes of Jewish resistance to roundups and deportations occurred, despite Nazi camouflage attempts, at Bialystok and more famously at Warsaw, where armed resistance led to pitched battle against German forces. Also, prisoner rebellions at Sobibor and Treblinka took those two camps off line.

Furthermore, you clearly don't understand how the camps worked, the distances and geography involved, or the role of force. Nor do you have a clue about the conditions of labor, which involved hunger, force, and punishments and culling of prisoners by shooting on site. The mass executions, however, occurred in different places for the most part, except during an action like Aktion Erntefest (Harvest Festival) during which the security police descended, without warning, heavily armed, and according to plan, on labor camps to shoot their inmates in a brief surprise action beginning at dawn. In this action, Jewish prisoners were separated from others and taken to nearby pits, where they were shot. At Majdanek and Trawniki, the shootings were over in just a single day; at Poniatowa, they lasted only two days. Prisoners had neither time nor opportunity to resist - or do you think that the regime at these camps encouraged prisoner self-organization?

What clownish arguments you make - always without a shred of evidence.

A person doesn't need to read any Holocaust garbage propaganda book to figure that out.

Your initial claim that Gruner's book was backing off the Holocaust having been exposed as ignorance, you are now changing tack, I see, and calling it garbage, without any basis other than your frustration. At any rate, a person who wants to discuss the Holocaust should be at least somewhat familiar with what those who study it have learned and argued - as well as with some of the basic documents. You show not a single sign of any such familiarity - nor of knowledge of how humans react in extreme situations. Your incredulity is thus easily dismissed as naive, self-serving, and ignorant of the conditions and events.

 

[TSR]

If they knew they would not have gone. Period. End of story.

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And all those people with guns didn't play a part in this at all?
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So, no matter how many Holocaust VIPs are blatant liars, that's hunky dory with you and your historian heroes?

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Well, since the only people declared to be "Holocaust VIPs" are declared so by deniers, and since the established history tends to remove unreliable sources, yes.

Because George Washington did not throw a silver dollar across the Potomac does not mean the American Revolution never happened.
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I wouldn't know where to begin as the whole site is a lie. A lie to keep the Holocaust cash cow alive.

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And yet, you are unable to cite even a single such lie. Start anywhere, and show your work.

Keep in mind "I don't want to believe this could have happened" does not make a lie, except on your part.
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Yes. They are all lies or ridiculous exaggerations.

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Show us the lies or exaggerations -- should be easy even for a <snip> denier if it is so obvious...

Edited by Loss Leader: 

Edited for Rule 0. And I fixed a spelling error.

 

[Multivac]

If they knew they would not have gone. Period. End of story.

You think they would rather be shot on the spot than take the small chance they might live?

Yes. They are all lies or ridiculous exaggerations.

If you are talking about that crap that you and your denier heroes spout, I'll agree with you.

 

[LemmyCaution]

You think they would rather be shot on the spot than take the small chance they might live?

There is more to it than this, focusing on the labor camps and ghettos.

In the camps and ghettos, yes, the inmates were held under a tight regime, segregated from the rest of society, guarded, and subject to violence and brutality from armed guards.

But the Jewish inmates were also overworked and undernourished. Due to the poor conditions in which they were held, including semi-starvation and starvation, diseases were rampant. Death rates were high. Minor infractions were punished harshly, including by immediate shooting, no questions asked. The Germans used terror, singling out individuals for abuse. In the labor camps, those unable to work at the level expected were "selected" for killing, either by shooting or dispatch to a death camp. Camp inmates were separated from family and neighbors; in ghettos, inmates witnessed the disappearance of neighbors, friends, family to destinations not known to them.

The Germans lied to the victims - and divided them from one another using various techniques, including the dangling of the hope of slave labor (or roles in ghettos) over execution as a possibility and using other devices to keep illusions and hope alive among the victims.

In these conditions - subject to strict control, weakened to the point of debility, and powerless - Jews faced a strong adversary, one with military and police power at its disposal, and with coordinated plans for implementing the anti-Jewish policy. Chances for resistance being successful were minimal, and yet resistance sometimes occurred. People were more likely, however, to try a find a way out of the trap for themselves as individuals, family, or a few friends - and many gave up hope as malnourishment, exploitation and brutalization, and disease took their toll over months and months.

Clayton's strawman is ahistorical and nonsensical - and he repeats it without ever citing a single fact, document, or other piece of evidence.

 

[000063]

Oh please. You can't intimidate/lure people who know you are going to kill their family, their children.

Assuming that to be true, then it logically means they weren't aware.

But you're having trouble wrapping your mind around that, since it would mean you are wrong.

 

[Wroclaw]

Oh please. You can't intimidate/lure people who know you are going to kill their family, their children.

Here's a thought experiment for you, big guy: A sadistic murderer has kidnapped your entire family, killing your favorite sibling in the process. That sibling is dead and there's nothing you can do to bring s/he back. But the killer tells you that unless you do back-breaking labor every day until you drop, he'll kill the ones that are still alive also.

Sound like fun? Welcome to Jewish life in Europe, World War II.

 

[LemmyCaution]

And don't play games, Clayton. Wroclaw's example concerns a person who is unarmed, confined, underfed, and overworked - and that person is held by armed, organized, and trigger-happy squads who have shown their willingness to kill.

What is this person going to do? Using what resources?

 

[Clayton Moore]

And don't play games, Clayton. Wroclaw's example concerns a person who is unarmed, confined, underfed, and overworked - and that person is held by armed, organized, and trigger-happy squads who have shown their willingness to kill.

What is this person going to do? Using what resources?

After you learn that a million Jewish children, women and men were gassed in year ONE you do what ever you can to get out of Europe.

Team Holocaust says the 2 million Jewish children, women and men who were gassed in years 2 and 3 waited to be summoned.

Every assistance group in Europe and America and much of the world, after learning 1 million had already been gassed, would have offered/attempted to help the 2 million Jewish children, women and men.

 

[A'isha]

After you learn that a million Jewish children, women and men were gassed in year ONE you do what ever you can to get out of Europe.

As many as could leave Germany left for countries outside Nazi control. Then the Nazis took over quite a few of the countries they fled to, and made sure they couldn't leave again.

Team Holocaust says the 2 million Jewish children, women and men who were gassed in years 2 and 3 waited to be summoned.

No, they weren't waiting for anything. They were either murdered on the spot, rounded up and taken to camps, or forced into ghettoes they weren't allowed to leave.

Every assistance group in Europe and America and much of the world, after learning 1 million had already been gassed, would have offered/attempted to help the 2 million Jewish children, women and men.

Before the mass murders started, even when shiploads of refugee Jews fleeing Germany tried to land they were turned away, because anti-Semitism wasn't just a German thing (you should read what President Roosevelt and the Free French general in North Africa thought about German "grievances" against Jews, even as late as 1943).

After the mass murders started, the Nazis were in control of pretty much all of Europe, from the Atlantic to the outskirts of Moscow. If countries like America wanted to help the Jews after that, they had to fight through the Wehrmacht in order to get to the Jews imprisoned by the Germans.

As a result, it kind of took them a while.

 

[Border Reiver]

Clayton your response does not even begin to address the issue of "how".

In the years preceding 1939 there were many restrictions placed on movement and after the invasion of Poland there were even more. Rail travel is rigidly controlled and sea travel from the occupied territories even more. Distance becomes a huge factor - think you and all your extended family could walk say 100km overland (I'll presume you want to avoid some attention). How long do you think it would take? Could you carry enough food? What about shelter (tents aren't that common)? How about river crossings? And when you get to the sea how do you get away or signal for allied transport to come and take you away? What you propose sounds simple "Just get away.". But when you look at the logistics of it the task rapidly gets to "Impossible."

 

[Nick Terry]

After you learn that a million Jewish children, women and men were gassed in year ONE you do what ever you can to get out of Europe.

Team Holocaust says the 2 million Jewish children, women and men who were gassed in years 2 and 3 waited to be summoned.

No, historians don't say this at all. 4 million were dead by the end of 1942, with significant numbers killed in a very short space of time between July and December 1942, too fast for many to react. Those that did learn something of the extermination often fled en masse to the forests, the south of France, or into hiding. And then were winkled out over the remainder of the war. 1.3 milllion died in 1943-45, whereas several million were able to save themselves.

Every assistance group in Europe and America and much of the world, after learning 1 million had already been gassed, would have offered/attempted to help the 2 million Jewish children, women and men.

Which they did. Problem was, the 2 million they thought they could help were already dead.

 

[Clayton Moore]

No, historians don't say this at all. 4 million were dead by the end of 1942, with significant numbers killed in a very short space of time between July and December 1942, too fast for many to react. Those that did learn something of the extermination often fled en masse to the forests, the south of France, or into hiding. And then were winkled out over the remainder of the war. 1.3 milllion died in 1943-45, whereas several million were able to save themselves.



Which they did. Problem was, the 2 million they thought they could help were already dead.

THE CAMPS

Of the approximately 6 million Jews murdered in the Holocaust, more than half were systematically exterminated in the highly rationalized gas chamber/crematorium system of the Nazi Death Camps between 1942 and 1945. The names of Treblinka, Auschwitz-Birkenau, Dachau, Chelmno, Sobibor, Belzek and Majdanek are indelibly stamped on history. Following the Wannsee Conference in Berlin, January 20, 1942, the "Final Solution" was an official policy and a major obsession of the Nazi regime. It was at that point that camps were constructed for the express purpose of rational mass extermination, principally of Jews, but of other groups as well.

http://frank.mtsu.edu/~baustin/holocamp.html


So now you're revising the Holocaust?

 

[A'isha]

http://frank.mtsu.edu/~baustin/holocamp.html


So now you're revising the Holocaust?

Look again at the dates in both quote blocks, Clayton.

 

[LemmyCaution]

No, historians don't say this at all. 4 million were dead by the end of 1942, with significant numbers killed in a very short space of time between July and December 1942, too fast for many to react. Those that did learn something of the extermination often fled en masse to the forests, the south of France, or into hiding. And then were winkled out over the remainder of the war. 1.3 milllion died in 1943-45, whereas several million were able to save themselves.

Which they did. Problem was, the 2 million they thought they could help were already dead.

Furthermore, as Yosef Gorny's study of the Jewish press, The Jewish Press and the Holocaust 1939-1945, makes clear, it was not until December 1942 that Jewish opinion makers became convinced that the rumors of mass murder were true, so difficult were the bits and pieces emerging from Poland and the USSR to believe.

To take just one example, Gorny writes that as late as August 1942, "when the reports about mass murders became more frequent and successive, and after protest rallies in New York and Jerusalem, the newspaper [Hamashqif, a Zionist paper published in Palestine] ran an editorial under the headline with an exclamation point that spoke for itself: "Let's Check the Accuracy of the Reports!" The editorial worried that the news of extermination was coming from "unauthorized sources [. . . ] and one should doubt their accuracy."

And so check the emerging reports for accuracy Jewish and other press organs did - and by December 1942, as Gorny says, with authoritative statements being made (e.g., the Allied joint statement) as well as more and more indisputable reports coming forth, they understood that the rumors and bits of information they'd been receiving, and doubting, were true.

The phrase "too late" comes to mind - and also the beaten-down, powerless condition of Europe's surviving Jews, confined in various kinds of camps and ghettos or scattered in a few places not yet worked over by the Nazis.

By December 1942, well, Nick's post has already told Clayton how many European Jews had been murdered.

The beauty of this discussion is that Clayton motors on, oblivious to facts, history books, documents, or anything else that gets in way of his reflex prejudices and biases.