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Merged General Holocaust denial discussion thread

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That would be circular only if we weren't able to point to evidence of Saggy's beliefs on matters other than the Holocaust. As the following post indicates



this is not the case.

Chicken-and-egg dilemmas (does Saggy deny the Holocaust because he holds delusory views about Jews, or does he hold delusory views about Jews because he denies the Holocaust) aren't strictly speaking, circular arguments.

??? I can't really see any logic or sense to what you've written, but I'm pretty sure I know what you'd like to say, but here's the thing .... you cannot realize that the holohoax is indeed a deliberate contrived hoax that has benefited the Jews to the detriment of the rest of humanity, and not have a very negative view of Jews. So, of course every holohoax denier has a very negative view of Jews. It is a result of holohoax denial, not a cause.

Strictly speaking, a negative view of Jews could be a cause of holohoax denial, but, since holohoax denial necessarily leads to a negative view of Jews, that inference is not possible from the fact that a holohoax denier has a negative view of Jews as holohoax denial itself is cause for a negative view of Jews and hence all holohoax deniers have a negative view of Jews. It can't be otherwise.
 
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Which came first for you, Saggy? Did you doubt the Holocaust first or did you have a negative view of Jews first?
 
Well that is an interesting question, Bressie. Do you believe a Fuehrerbefehl ever existed? Do you believe Hitler ever put anything down in writing about exterminating all the Jews?

If so, perhaps you could write the text of a fake Hitler order (in English) with the appropriate date, that covers all the bases.

It is not as easy as it seems.

Funny how according to you, every document proving the existence of the Holocaust is a "forgery" by a legion of hoaxers but the one document that actually should have been forged was "not as easy as it seems?"
:rolleyes:

Which came first for you, Saggy? Did you doubt the Holocaust first or did you have a negative view of Jews first?

Ooh, ooh, I know - pick me, pick me! :D
 
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The Jews, as a result of the holohoax, have created a state, have ethnically cleansed Palestine, have extorted trillions in aid from the west in an ongoing scam, and have used the hoax to excuse endless crimes in the middle east.

The Jews have claimed victimhood status in every society they've occupied. There is nothing new about that, but the magnitude and utter depravity of the holohoax is unique, unprecedented.
this is not the case.

Is a Jewish mafia that far fetched?

Why?

Think about why they were thrown out of so many countries in Europe before WWII?
 
Think about why they were thrown out of so many countries in Europe before WWII?
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Okay, let me get this straight: prejudice based on nothing the individual Jews have done is okay so murdering millions can be winked at no matter how many lies you have to tell to justify it, but prejudice against deniers (which you whine about, but is based on WHAT YOU, AND OTHER DENIERS HAVE ACTIVELY AND PROVABLY DONE) is persecution.

And you really don't see the problem?
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Must there have been? I don't know anything about that, but I bow to your more informed opinion.



I am guessing they wouldn't be very popular with their friends and family if they did that. What would be their motive?

Since you've admitted that my opinion is superior to yours, I would think that they'd want to clear their country of blood libel.

No need to post a reply since you bow to my more informed opinion. Glad we could agree that the lack of whistleblowers proves the holocaust.
 
Still both on the corners of Szklana and Wielka


And you blame me for that!!!????!!!!! I genuinely believed your beloved Jewish writers were honest! How was I to guess the extend of their deceitfulness!!!

Are you talking about the NT here?
 
This thread is ridiculous. How any of you can stomach debating somebody who's sole defense of his position is that any evidence that doesn't support it was faked is beyond me.

It's not a debate.
 
Are you talking about the NT here?

He is trying to pass off a virtual remembrance page, describing a memorial day in present-time Vilnius, that talks of a killing of a German soldier, leaving his corpse in an intersection, as describing the same incident that was described in 2 German sources from 1941 as an alleged shooting at an SD building with no known victims.

His link, Virtual Shtetl, has this for Vilna in 1941: "The history of this place is very turbulent. On 10 July 1941, in Vilnus, on the corner of Wielka and Szklana street, a corpse of a German soldier was found. Jews were accused of the murder and, the same day, 123 people were executed. In his diary, Herman Kruk describes that there was a pogrom of Jews from Jatkowa and Szklana street." Note: There is no source, no attribution for this information, just this rehash gloss on probably a number of half-digested sources. Kruk's material, for example, is from September, not July. (Nor did Kruk write Szklana – he wrote Glezer!)

Here is one German report, from Ditfurth of the 403rd Security Division, on the July incident (which bunny tried dating to early September in a discussion earlier this year): "VIII.) Judenfrage
Geheime Feldpolizei und Sicherheitsdienst (SD) wirken zusammen bei der Bekämpfung jüdischer Übergriffe. Sämtliche Juden sin durch Abzeichen gekennzeichnet. Eine grosse Zahl von Erschiessungen hat bereits stattgefunden. Ich habe mit dem sehr loyalen Führer des SD, Obersturmbannführer Dr Filbert, vereinbart, dass diese Erschiessungen möglichst unauffällig statfinden und der Truppe verborgen bleiben. Als vorgestern nacht, angeblich auf das Unterkunftgebäude des SD, Schüsse abgegeben worden waren, liess der SD am Sonntag 300 Juden erschiessen. Dies sollte zur Abschreckung der Bevölkerung durch Anschlag bekannt gegeben werden. Dies habe ich verhindert. Trotzdem erschien eine kurze Notiz darüber in der hier von der Propaganda-Komp. herausgegebenen Soldatenzeitung ‘Der Durchbruch’, was beweist, dass die Prop.-Komp. noch nicht gelernt hat, mit der Division zusammen zu arbeiten."

[The book Holocaust in Litauen explains this as follows: "Ditfurth and his staff had no problems with the murders. In a report issue in mid-July the commandant summarized his successes so far in the field of Jewish policy like the obligation to carry an identification mark and the rations 50 % lower than those of the remaining population. He further noted that GFP and SD were working 'together in fighting Jewish aggressions', and added as a clarification that a large number of executions had already taken place. Ditfurth’s only concern was that these actions were obviously not approved by the troops like they were by himself. For this reason he agreed with Filbert 'that these shootings should take place as inconspicuously as possible and remain concealed from the troops.' Even more explicitly Ditfurth formulated his priorities with regard to a so-called reprisal action by the SD on 11 July, in which about 300 Jews had been murdered. Although obviously not convinced by the pretext of shots 'allegedly fired on the SD accommodation building', he avoided not the execution, but the poster announcement of the 'punishment measure' intended by Filbert as a deterrent."]

So in bunny's Virtual Shtetl link we have the corpse of a slain German soldier who was supposedly shot in an intersection - Wielka and Szklana - on 10 July. Again, this is compiled by an unknown person using unknown sources on a non-academic remembrance Website. In one German document we have something else entirely - shots at SD barracks, I presume, without any location given and without anyone reported hit. (Arad, Ghetto in Flames, p 77, also says no one was hit. Based on the Filbert trial - Filbert was the leader of the Einsatzkommando squad which carried out the reprisal, Arad also describes the alleged incident, round-up, and shootings. p 78)

The second document is OSR 24, one of the Einstatzgruppen Reports which bunny once promised to provide a case against; OSR 24 contained this about the July incident: "Einsatzkommando 9 Location: Vilinius . . . Because of a short surprise fire fight against the Vilnius Security Police Headquarters a special liquidation was carried out in excess of daily liquidation quotas." OSR 24 was dated 16 July 1941.

In the 2 German reports, then, we have “shots allegedly fired” or a brief "fire fight,” location given as Security Police building (not an intersection), no reports of any deaths let alone that of single "German soldier," no corpse in an intersection, and a reprisal carried out against the Jewish community, with 300 victims. There is no street location given in the OSR or in the Ditfurth report (I have seen different addresses given for the EK headquarters in Vilna, none at the intersection of Szklana and Wielka). None of this prevents the bunny from using the Virtual Shtetl write-up (by persons unknown using sources unknown, of a German shot dead in an intersection) in his continued campaign to try creating mystery around the July and September actions in Vilna.

Basically, a commemorative page got things mixed up. That's the headline here. And the proper response is: so what?

By the way, as noted above, we also know there was a trial of the leader of the EK9 squad carrying out the action (which I haven't been able to find online).
 
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Which came first for you, Saggy? Did you doubt the Holocaust first or did you have a negative view of Jews first?

I had a negative view first. Read 'They Dare to Speak Out' long time ago. I read 'The Fateful Triangle'. Worked in aerospace industry developing WMD which made me hyper-aware, or just aware, of the nuclear threat hanging above our heads, and the blasted Jews were always demonstrating against Russia. I remember traveling and I came across an Anne Frank exhibit, and I was repelled by the worldwide tribute to her 30 years after the fact when at the same time the Jews in Isael were killing Palestinian children with no tribute at all. Also while traveling I was in Lublin and visited Majdanek, but it was Sunday and the hoax gas chamber was closed. I hadn't known about it and from the appearance of the camp gave it no thought, thinking it obvious there was no gas chamber there. I didn't doubt the hoax, but at that time I was aware that I really didn't quite believe the gas chamber hoax, or at least that I had doubts But, I gave the Jews very little thought. Then Lieberman as VP candidate changed that. I read Shahak. I read that all Isreali govts had expanded the settlements. . I argued vociferously with a Jewish friend. When 9/11 came he said 'Now, you see, this changes everything'. By that time I had seen the light, and agreed that everything was changed but not in the way that he meant. Through all this I gave no thought to the hoax. Then I came across a post in alt.politics or some such about the stone plaque at Auschwitz being changed from 4 million to 1.5 million, and the inevitable Jewish response that the post was a llie, or better yet, a ploy exposed by Ken McVay. I figured this was knowable and discoverable so I set out to find out who was lying. I remember thinking that the chance it was a hoax was 1/100, but that it would appeal to me and be fun if it were. I started researching the thing on the internet, debated Ken McVay on alt.revisionism, read Hilberg, Wiernik (I can't remember who/what tipped me off to Wiernik), Night, Cole, Butz, I guess I realized from the initial post on the Auschwitz plaque that someone was lying. I was in doubt for a month or so, and I realized that the human mind does not like uncertainty. The hoax Auschwitz gas chamber became my touchstone, the Jews were lying about that, and (therefore) everything else, no question. Once seen, the thing is obvious.
 
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Kruk's material, for example, is from September, not July. (Nor did Kruk write Szklana – he wrote Glezer!)

Can you clarify what point you are trying to make here? You do accept that Glezer - Yiddish (English: Glazier) is Szklanna in Polish and Skriptu (or something like that) in Lithuanian? So we are talking about the same street.

Can I also get your comments on this match
Als vorgestern nacht, angeblich auf das Unterkunftgebäude des SD, Schüsse abgegeben worden waren, liess der SD am Sonntag 300 Juden erschiessen.

and Abba Kovner in Jerusalem
A. On 31 August in the afternoon hours I left my home to reach the place which was then the Jewish Community Council on Straszuna Street, and to ascertain the fate of several of my comrades who had been seized weeks before in a round-up for labour and hadn't returned, and we still presumed that some or most of them would return. I entered the office, and then half-an-hour later, one of the officials came in and, in a state of alarm, told us that the government radio had announced that German soldiers had been shot at in Szklanna Street, a street close by, and three hundred Jews had been executed in reprisal. This was in the afternoon.

Do you beloved Ghetto diaries confirm that 300 Jews were publicly announced killed in the immediate aftermath (just like in July....). Or do you think Kovner was confused.

As for the location of the July incident, we can assume if this was a provocation then it would have taken place where the Germans could "convincingly" blame Jews. So if reprisal victims were predominantly taken from Szklanna street then the possibilities are very narrow.

BTW, whoever wrote that article seems to be deliberately cold-shouldering the Great Provocation - and I say good on him or her.
 
Can you clarify what point you are trying to make here? You do accept that Glezer - Yiddish (English: Glazier) is Szklanna in Polish and Skriptu (or something like that) in Lithuanian? So we are talking about the same street.
I see, I am sorry, of course I can clarify. Obviously I am not interested in quibbling with you about street names. This game is idiotic. If you don't know where the shooting in July took place, say so; if you do, share this information and its source. What I meant to beg, therefore, is that you try to get serious. I was saying that your link is trash. It isn't qualified to serve the purpose you're trying to use it for. And, like your link, your troll on this matter is also trash. That was my point.

Can I also get your comments on this match
Als vorgestern nacht, angeblich auf das Unterkunftgebäude des SD, Schüsse abgegeben worden waren, liess der SD am Sonntag 300 Juden erschiessen.

and Abba Kovner in Jerusalem
A. On 31 August in the afternoon hours I left my home to reach the place which was then the Jewish Community Council on Straszuna Street, and to ascertain the fate of several of my comrades who had been seized weeks before in a round-up for labour and hadn't returned, and we still presumed that some or most of them would return. I entered the office, and then half-an-hour later, one of the officials came in and, in a state of alarm, told us that the government radio had announced that German soldiers had been shot at in Szklanna Street, a street close by, and three hundred Jews had been executed in reprisal. This was in the afternoon.

Do you beloved Ghetto diaries confirm that 300 Jews were publicly announced killed in the immediate aftermath (just like in July....).
Or do you think Kovner was confused.
Of course, Kovner was confused. But not by as much as you are trying to confuse things. As you know, Kovner's full testimony on the Great Provocation doesn't stop with 300 victims, that number seemingly Kovner's recollection (20 years after the fact) of the number which the German radio reported to have been killed in the immediate wake of the bogus incident. Kovner's confused recollection of the scope of the reprisal murders was as follows: "Let us go back to that day. On the following morning, this hypocritical announcement was published to the effect that soldiers had been fired upon. But what happened that night? On that night about 10,000 men, women and children were taken to Ponar to be put to death in order to vacate the area which had been planned in advance for the ghetto." So, confused, Kovner claimed 10,000, not 300, victims in the Great Provocation, with 300, according to a radio report he recalled, as the starting number. You know, of course, Jaeger's number, Kruk's estimate, and Sakowicz's estimate of the total number of victims - all falling many thousands short of Kovner's 10,000.

You know as well as I do that diarists like Kruk and Rudashevski did not mention 300 killed in the September Provocation, whether announced by the Germans or estimated in some other manner. Kruk mentioned a pogrom in several streets and then 5,000 Jews "driven out," with Lukiszki prison being the destination he mentioned at this point, 2 September. Kruk added that two, not 300, Jews had been shot and "thousands of Jews have been driven out." Kruk also noted that "So far, it is hard to determine the extent" of the action against the Jews. According to Rudashevski, Jews living in a number of streets were led to an unknown destination and only later was it learned that they were taken to Ponar and shot. I don't recall either of these, for example, mentioning the radio broadcast.

As to July, I have no source that says how many Jews were publicly announced killed. The 403rd report says that 300 were killed in reprisal and that a brief note – no details given – on the killings slipped into a military newspaper.

As for the location of the July incident, we can assume if this was a provocation then it would have taken place where the Germans could "convincingly" blame Jews. So if reprisal victims were predominantly taken from Szklanna street then the possibilities are very narrow.
I don't understand what you have written here. As to the locations involved in the July event, I don't know of good evidence for where Jews were seized from. Judging from Kruk, it is possible that "snatchings" occurred in Strashun, Ostrobramska, and Nowogrodzka. Why do you assume that the victims were principally seized from Szklana? Where was the EK 9 accommodation building, by the way, and how do you know? After all, sources (not commemorative Web pages) locate the shooting there, not in an intersection.

BTW, whoever wrote that article seems to be deliberately cold-shouldering the Great Provocation - and I say good on him or her.
No doubt. The blurb is so appallingly confused - taking material of Kruk's dated September and moving it to July; having Kruk use the Polish name for one of the streets mentioned - and so poorly conceived that you yourself could have written it.
 
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