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Merged General Holocaust denial discussion thread

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Well at least the latest hoax survivor doesn't have any absurd tales to tell about the Nazis, he tells how they exterminated the Jews with showers that were simultaneously hot and cold, nothing absurd about that ....

"They sent us into showers with a strong flow of water, which was partly boiling and partly frozen. The flow and the temperature were so strong that some of the people died on the spot."

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4158899,00.html

Maybe he's the most credible Jewish eyewitness.

Wait a minute, hot and cold ?

Oh he's credible alright! When he arrived at Auschwitz another prisoner pointed out the chimney and told him that's where is parents were burned. This corroborates other witness statements who say they were also told about the chimney.

And the water wasn't hot and cold. It was partly boiling and partly frozen.
 
Yes. If you weren't sent to a death camp, then you very likely got registered. If you got registered and killed later on, then your killing in the death registered tended to get a code word attached to it like Sonderbehandlung or you were listed as having had a heart attack.

You have any idea how many people in their twenties died in Auschwitz of heart attacks?
 
Anyone who went to high school in the US in other than an affluent suburb knows about hot and cold water showers - although not to this extreme! There are references to hot-cold water torture at Flossenburg - of gay prisoners (not in showers) and of "freezing" water showers (Fernand Van Horen).
 
And the water wasn't hot and cold. It was partly boiling and partly frozen.
Because the victim clearly was speaking as a trained scientist and certainly not figuratively, as in . . .
1 a : heated to the boiling point b : torrid <a boiling sun>
2
: intensely agitated <a boiling sea> <boiling with anger>

Examples of BOILING
1. I'm boiling in this suit.
2. It is boiling in here.
 
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While we wait (as we often must, patiently) for LGR's sources, let us take note of some odd points about his post claiming obvious fabrication of the Hingst order of 1 September 1941:

- the Hingst order did not purport to relate to a murder of several thousand Jews outside Ponar - the statement on the order was of collective Jewish responsibility for the so-called shooting incident the previous day and a curfew for Vilna's Jews - it is only other documentation, testimony, etc that link the order to the extermination action at Ponar that followed (the order is noted, by the way, in both Kruk's journal and Sakowicz's diary, and the action that followed is the one which Pesye Schloss and Yudis Trojak survived)

Well yes, Pesye Schloss survived in the same fashion Frodo Baggins survived Mt Doom or Harry Potter survived Lord Voldemort.

- the two documents appear to have been issued by different authorities - Hingst was the German-installed commissioner for Vilna (Gebeitskommissar for the city under German occupation, installed in late July 1941), while Dabulevicius was Lithuanian mayor of Vilna - LGR did not make this difference, that these orders appear to have been issued under 2 different authorities, clear in his post nor did he explain why we should expect a city order issued by the Lithuanians to match a German order issued by the German civil administration

- the Lithuanian announcement appears to have been one in a numbered series of regular bureaucratic orders while the Hingst order is made to appear ad hoc, for the purpose of combating the so-called provocation, presented as an unexpected incident - again, it is a mystery to me, at least, why these two very different kinds of orders issued by two different authorities should form an identical pair - LGR's suggestive post ignores these realities, to put it mildly

Well quite, but we also know that Hans Hingst also issued a numbered proclamation on that very same day. Bekanntmachung Nr 4 - asking Jews register their property. What is the point of issuing a Bekanntmachung demanding the Jews register their property at a Police station while simultaneously demanding they stay indoors. Wouldn't the second demand get in the way of the first demand, which is seeking to confiscate Jewish property?

It would be a very reasonable proposition to suggest that Bekanntmachung Nr 4 of the Governor-General would look rather similar to Bekanntmachung Nr. 19 of the Mayor?

- there is no logic to LGR's argument that a postwar fabrication would be hasty - he hasn't begun to explain the context driving for such a fabrication or its need to be done in haste

Here I must agree with Mr Ford. Hasty is the wrong word - the correct word should by clumsy. They had plenty of time - since the first presentation of this poster (at least The Great Provocation doesn't appear in Raul Hilberg's first edition or in Reitlinger - although Sutzker had presented a version to Nuremberg involving gas chambers) appears to be Abba Kovner at the Eichmann trial and clumsy seems to sum it up well

Q. Let us go back to the days when you were in Vilna. Do you remember the document of which this is a photocopy?

A. Yes.

Q. What is it? Read it.

A. Since a magnifying glass would be needed in order to read it, I have a Hebrew translation with me.

Q. First of all, the Court will admit this as an exhibit.

Presiding Judge: This will be exhibit T/279. Please read the document. Did you translate it into Hebrew?

Witness Kovner: Yes. It can also be read. I shall read an extract from it. The document was published in three languages.
....
Presiding Judge: What was the date of this document?

Witness Kovner: It is dated 1 September 1941. It is possible to read this with the naked eye. This notice was published in this form on the city walls on 1 September.

But clumsy Kovner can't help but letting his mouth run on....
A. On 31 August in the afternoon hours I left my home to reach the place which was then the Jewish Community Council on Straszuna Street, and to ascertain the fate of several of my comrades who had been seized weeks before in a round-up for labour and hadn't returned, and we still presumed that some or most of them would return. I entered the office, and then half-an-hour later, one of the officials came in and, in a state of alarm, told us that the government radio had announced that German soldiers had been shot at in Szklanna Street, a street close by, and three hundred Jews had been executed in reprisal. This was in the afternoon.

Oh really....300 hundred Jews shot in reprisal announced on the radio......doesn't that remind you of a particular incident.....?

And a quick google-investigate and look what we find
Heroism and martyrdom in Vilnius ghetto

On 23 September, the 67th anniversary of the liquidation of the Vilna Ghetto is to be commemorated.

The history of this place is very turbulent. On 10 July 1941, in Vilnus, on the corner of Wielka and Szklana street, a corpse of a German soldier was found. Jews were accused of the murder and, the same day, 123 people were executed. In his diary, Herman Kruk describes that there was a pogrom of Jews from Jatkowa and Szklana street.
http://www.sztetl.org.pl/en/cms/story/821/

No wonder Mr Caution was very coy about describing how Kruk dealt with The Little Provocation of July 1941 - it seems by some extraordinary coincidence to occurred in the exact same place where the Great Provocation took place....

However, let us return to the good Abba at the Eichmann trial
During these hours, in the middle of the night, I saw that, from the opposite courtyard - 7 or 9 Straszuna Street - a woman who was holding something in her arms, was being dragged by her hair by two soldiers. One of them shone a torch in her face, and the other pulled her and threw her to the pavement. At that moment a baby slipped out of her arms. One of the two - I think it was the one with the torch took hold of the baby and raised it by its legs over his head. The woman grabbed his boot and begged for mercy. He lifted the baby again, and then he knocked its head on the wall, once, twice, and kept on doing it.
Oh, well, of course.

Finally, Abba makes clear he had the run of the Gestapo offices in 1944 - and what is the worst document he found?
Witness Kovner: Let us go back to that day. On the following morning, this hypocritical announcement was published to the effect that soldiers had been fired upon. But what happened that night? On that night about 10,000 men, women and children were taken to Ponar to be put to death in order to vacate the area which had been planned in advance for the ghetto. I remember that, in 1944, in July, when we returned to Vilna and tried to find documents at the Gestapo, in the office of the District Commander, I found a document signed by the same Schweinberger which was a kind of "situation report" - "Lagebericht" they called it, which had been sent to the "SS und Polizei-Fuehrer, Ostland ,"in which he reported that on 1 September the area intended as a ghetto for the Jews of Vilna had been made ready; all preparations had been completed for the setting up of the ghetto. In this way the ground was prepared.

Presiding Judge: What happened to this report?

Witness Kovner: This report is kept in the archives of the Jewish Museum in Vilna.

Attorney General: Do you remember the name of the department that was on this report? This matter is most important, and you should only tell us if you positively remember it.

A. I don't remember it positively. But I believe that I saw, for the first time, this abbreviation of IVB4 - I cannot say for certain, but years afterwards when I learned what it was, I remembered as in a flash of lightening what it referred to.

Leaving aside that IVB4 could at best only have appeared on a list of the "Verteiler" - assuming Kovner is not lying, how was Kovner didn't find something a bit more incriminating or interesting like the Stahlecker report and his famous coffin map, rather than a bland Lagerbericht saying they were going to set up a ghetto, which seemed to occur everywhere else without provocations?

The Great Provocation....it was dated early September, or perhaps it would be better if it is not dated at all?
 
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Because the victim clearly was speaking as a trained scientist and certainly not figuratively, as in . . .

Not to mention that Ynetnews is the English-language Web site of Yediot Ahronot, which is a Hebrew-language Israeli daily of some stature. Despite that stature, it frequently has problems in its English-language Web version. Anyone who wonders how severe the problems in translating are with Israeli Web sites produced in English need only type the name "Harold Gutman" into Google news and read up. Both Yediot and Ha'aretz (the biggest left-wing Hebrew-language daily in Israel) dropped the ball on that one.
 
Well yes, Pesye Schloss survived in the same fashion Frodo Baggins survived Mt Doom or Harry Potter survived Lord Voldemort.
Sticking to that one, I see. Only she survived to tell her story to one Mr Kruk. Other than that . . . exactly the same.

Well quite, but we also know that Hans Hingst also issued a numbered proclamation on that very same day. Bekanntmachung Nr 4 - asking Jews register their property. What is the point of issuing a Bekanntmachung demanding the Jews register their property at a Police station while simultaneously demanding they stay indoors. Wouldn't the second demand get in the way of the first demand, which is seeking to confiscate Jewish property?

It would be a very reasonable proposition to suggest that Bekanntmachung Nr 4 of the Governor-General would look rather similar to Bekanntmachung Nr. 19 of the Mayor?
Kruk, of course, wrote about this. On 2 September Kruk wrote that an earlier registration order had been withdrawn only to be replaced with a press announcement ("Today the press reports again") of Hingst's order that Jewish property be registered by 8 September, that is, in tandem with the forced ghettoization (IIRC Kruk was off by a day on the end date?). This order, according to Kruk, took the registration out of the hands of the Jewish Committee, which was terminated when most of its members were killed during the Great Provocation (on the 2nd in fact) and moved responsibility for the registration into the hands of the chiefs of police.

The curfew in Hingst's order ended 10 am the 2nd, by which time the murder victims had been rounded up. The order seems to have reached the Jewish community after the curfew ended, and since the registration was to take a week, the overnight curfew/roundup didn't impede it.

Later on 5 September Kruk already preempted the denier refrain that "if it wasn't done perfectly, it wasn't done at all," when he noted of the registration orders and their implementation, in the wake of a followup order on 4 September for the turnover, no longer simply the registration, of Jewish property, "One order contradicts another!"

I have no idea what the originals of the 2 September and 4 September orders look like. I have not seen the series. If you have, don't play games. Make your case.

Here I must agree with Mr Ford. Hasty is the wrong word - the correct word should by clumsy. They had plenty of time - since the first presentation of this poster (at least The Great Provocation doesn't appear in Raul Hilberg's first edition or in Reitlinger - although Sutzker had presented a version to Nuremberg involving gas chambers) appears to be Abba Kovner at the Eichmann trial and clumsy seems to sum it up well
The first mentions of Hingst's announcement, as I noted twice earlier, come from the first week of September 1941, Kruk p 84 and Sakowicz p 29.

No wonder Mr Caution was very coy about describing how Kruk dealt with The Little Provocation of July 1941 - it seems by some extraordinary coincidence to occurred in the exact same place where the Great Provocation took place....
So please show my reticence concerning Kruk's coverage of the liquidation action in July. I wrote that he seems to allude to it obliquely. He mentions a shift to broad-daylight snatchings and mentions a large group taken off from Strashun 6 (Judenrat building) and Nowogrodzka 28. You make many unsubstantiated charges like this, you know.

As to the Great Provocation in September, Kruk wrote that it occurred at the corner of Niemiecka and Glezer - Harshav footnoting that this was an error and stating the location as Wielka and Glezer. The subsequent roundups of Jews occurred on the following streets, according to Kruk, Glezer, Gaon, Strashun, Jatkowa, Zawalna, and Szawelska. What you are going on about is a bit unclear. Kruk on the other hand was precise about what he had learned.

However, let us return to the good Abba at the Eichmann trial

Oh, well, of course.

Finally, Abba makes clear he had the run of the Gestapo offices in 1944 - and what is the worst document he found?

Leaving aside that IVB4 could at best only have appeared on a list of the "Verteiler" - assuming Kovner is not lying, how was Kovner didn't find something a bit more incriminating or interesting like the Stahlecker report and his famous coffin map, rather than a bland Lagerbericht saying they were going to set up a ghetto, which seemed to occur everywhere else without provocations?

The Great Provocation....it was dated early September, or perhaps it would be better if it is not dated at all?
You have descended into gibberish. I have no idea what argument you are trying to make. More importantly, you don't seem to know either. It seems that two ghettos were set up, and Kovner found an order relating to this. So? Any cursory reading of Jewish sources will convince a fair reader that the creation of the ghettos was a traumatic community event - one that was extremely difficult to come to terms with. So Kovner mentioned finding a document related to a community trauma and you find this somehow to mean something else? By the way, Arad cites policy statements from Lohse (his provisional directives of 13 August and his letter of 25 August, from which the provisional directives were forwarded to Hingst in late August) as initiating the ghettoization, with the accompanying slaughters.

Take something. Try again. I really can't follow a great deal of your post.

Edit: Mr Ford? Please. Do pull yourself together.
 
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Leaving aside that IVB4 could at best only have appeared on a list of the "Verteiler" - assuming Kovner is not lying, how was Kovner didn't find something a bit more incriminating or interesting like the Stahlecker report and his famous coffin map, rather than a bland Lagerbericht saying they were going to set up a ghetto, which seemed to occur everywhere else without provocations?

Why don't you tell us, Bunny? You're the one theorizing forgeries. And yet, Abba Kovner, partisan that he was and thus (we must assume) in cahoots with the big bad commies, must have had free access to the Great Soviet Forgery Factory (GSFF) that exists in your fevered imagination. Given such an opportunity, why didn't he cook up a better forgery?

Or would you like to maintain that Soviets just don't make good forgers?

Or that Kovner forgot?

In fact, while you're at it, why not explain to us all why the GSFF didn't bother to forge a Führerbefehl? Kind of a big omission, wouldn't you say?

And while you're at all that, maybe you could also begin to provide a single proof for systematic forgery of documents.

Thanks in advance.

(Oh, and I'm still waiting on the provenance of your documents.)
 
Why don't you tell us, Bunny? You're the one theorizing forgeries. And yet, Abba Kovner, partisan that he was and thus (we must assume) in cahoots with the big bad commies, must have had free access to the Great Soviet Forgery Factory (GSFF) that exists in your fevered imagination. Given such an opportunity, why didn't he cook up a better forgery?

Or would you like to maintain that Soviets just don't make good forgers?

Or that Kovner forgot?

In fact, while you're at it, why not explain to us all why the GSFF didn't bother to forge a Führerbefehl? Kind of a big omission, wouldn't you say?

And while you're at all that, maybe you could also begin to provide a single proof for systematic forgery of documents.

Thanks in advance.

(Oh, and I'm still waiting on the provenance of your documents.)
Well, he will have to get both Kruk and Sakowicz into the MFF as they both have references to Hingst's document dating from the first week of September 1941 (both from entries made on 2 September) - and since LGR now dates Hingst's announcement to after the war, that means that Kruk and Sakowicz had to have been written or manipulated after the war.

He already failed trying to put Kruk as a survivor in Kovno. Then he failed when he tried to put these sections of Kruk's diary in Klooga so they could fall into Red hands. What will he come up with next? One "theory" fails, come up with another. He has a lot of 'splaining to do, not to mention OSR 24 and all the other OSR's.
 
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Sticking to that one, I see. Only she survived to tell her story to one Mr Kruk. Other than that . . . exactly the same.

Well yes, she exists the same way Harry Potter exists. But Kruk was fond of giving supporting roles to non-existent people
With the same stylistic dryness and precision, Kruk documents an orgy in the offices of the Judenrat on New Year's Eve, 1942, and reports on the Jewish girls who have good relationships with the Germans, and even mentions the name of one of them, a former worker in a pharmacy, Ms. Lili Reszanska. And he adds: "This is a local detail I considered it necessary to note." Who is Lili Reszanska? It turns out that at the time he was writing these things down in the journal, she worked in the Jewish police in the ghetto and was one of the few Jews who walked around without the obligatory yellow star.
Like Pesye Schloss, Lili Reszanska doesn't appear in the Ghetto census.

I have no idea what the originals of the 2 September and 4 September orders look like. I have not seen the series. If you have, don't play games. Make your case.
No, Mr Caution. The 1st of September - the same day as your forged Bekanntmachung. Please strive for accuracy in these matters.

The first mentions of Hingst's announcement, as I noted twice earlier, come from the first week of September 1941, Kruk p 84 and Sakowicz p 29.
While I have no doubt Ponary diary was written after the war and being written or innumerable scraps of paper could easily be updated, its worth pointing out that Sakowicz's account is subtly different.
These shootings were a punishment for the bogus shooting
at German soldiers in Wilno on Sunday, August 31. There, on
the outskirts of the city, Hingst announced that Jews would be
punished for the shooting on the previous Sunday.
It doesn't really mention posters - and since it would be pointless to place notices for the Ghetto on the outskirts of the city, if it has any meaning at all (which is doubtful) it must mean a physical announcement. Do strive for accuracy at all times, Mr Caution.

You don't want to gain a reputation for cherry-picking and distorting documents like Mr Wroclaw.


As to the Great Provocation in September, Kruk wrote that it occurred at the corner of Niemiecka and Glezer - Harshav footnoting that this was an error and stating the location as Wielka and Glezer. The subsequent roundups of Jews occurred on the following streets, according to Kruk, Glezer, Gaon, Strashun, Jatkowa, Zawalna, and Szawelska. What you are going on about is a bit unclear. Kruk on the other hand was precise about what he had learned.

A bit of slight of hand - Glezer (Glazier) is another rendition of Szklana - since Niemiecka and Glezer (Szklana) don't intersect, can't intersect as they run parallel.
http://www.deathcamps.org/occupation/pic/bigvilniusghettomap.jpg
we have a very odd mistake from our "eyewitness", on the spot diarist. Lord knows there aren't that many streets to choose from. Possibly the author was doing his level best to try and create another provocation, different to the one in July at Szklanna and Wielka corner.

I don't see why you are all making such a fuss. 300 unjustly executed in a reprisal for a phony incident at Szklanna and Wielka street seems quite terrible enough. There seems no need to run a reprise reprisal again in September.
 
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In fact, while you're at it, why not explain to us all why the GSFF didn't bother to forge a Führerbefehl? Kind of a big omission, wouldn't you say?

Well that is an interesting question, Bressie. Do you believe a Fuehrerbefehl ever existed? Do you believe Hitler ever put anything down in writing about exterminating all the Jews?

If so, perhaps you could write the text of a fake Hitler order (in English) with the appropriate date, that covers all the bases.

It is not as easy as it seems.

The easiest way to forge a convincing document is take a genuine document and alter it to include the information you wish. Witness your excellent find where provisional bakeries became temporary crematoria (thanks again for that - I had missed it). It seems there is lacking any good candidate to serve as source material. Himmler's order in mid 1942 about the need to separate the races in Europe would be a good candidate - trouble is it is too late to serve your purposes.

Anyway, Hoaxsters, put your creative heads together and design a good Fuehrerbefehl.

Best entry wins a shower with Saggy, second best wins two showers with Saggy.
 
Why don't you tell us, Bunny? You're the one theorizing forgeries. And yet, Abba Kovner, partisan that he was and thus (we must assume) in cahoots with the big bad commies, must have had free access to the Great Soviet Forgery Factory (GSFF) that exists in your fevered imagination. Given such an opportunity, why didn't he cook up a better forgery?

Or would you like to maintain that Soviets just don't make good forgers?

Or that Kovner forgot?

In fact, while you're at it, why not explain to us all why the GSFF didn't bother to forge a Führerbefehl? Kind of a big omission, wouldn't you say?

And while you're at all that, maybe you could also begin to provide a single proof for systematic forgery of documents.

Thanks in advance.

(Oh, and I'm still waiting on the provenance of your documents.)

There must have been an army of clerks making forgeries. Wonder why none of them has never come forward to blow the lid off the 'hoax'?
 
There must have been an army of clerks making forgeries.

Must there have been? I don't know anything about that, but I bow to your more informed opinion.

Wonder why none of them has never come forward to blow the lid off the 'hoax'?

I am guessing they wouldn't be very popular with their friends and family if they did that. What would be their motive?
 
Circular reasoning: any document will be called false and any lack of a document will be pointed out as "evidence of the conspiracy."

It's easy when they get to invent their own reality.
 
Well yes, she exists the same way Harry Potter exists. But Kruk was fond of giving supporting roles to non-existent people
With the same stylistic dryness and precision, Kruk documents an orgy in the offices of the Judenrat on New Year's Eve, 1942, and reports on the Jewish girls who have good relationships with the Germans, and even mentions the name of one of them, a former worker in a pharmacy, Ms. Lili Reszanska. And he adds: "This is a local detail I considered it necessary to note." Who is Lili Reszanska? It turns out that at the time he was writing these things down in the journal, she worked in the Jewish police in the ghetto and was one of the few Jews who walked around without the obligatory yellow star.
Like Pesye Schloss, Lili Reszanska doesn't appear in the Ghetto census.
Well, he mentions Lili Reszanska in spring '42 as well, again as a collaborator. Source for your depiction? According to Harshav, p135 of Kruk, at least one other diarist mentioned Reszanska as a collaborator, in a profile of Oberhardt. Mendel Balberyszki in his memoir written shortly after the war also mentions Reskanska as Solomon Gens's wife and as a pharmacist, one of the ghetto's privileged group, during his escort from the ghetto in September 1943.

No, Mr Caution. The 1st of September - the same day as your forged Bekanntmachung. Please strive for accuracy in these matters.
Well, since Kruk explained that the announcement reached Jews by means of the press on 2 September, two days before another announcement on the subject, I was most accurate. Forgive me, but I will trust Kruk on this, after you tried passing off an order from the mayor, who was subordinate to the occupying authorities, as one of the orders of the occupying authorities. To take but one example.

While I have no doubt Ponary diary was written after the war and being written or innumerable scraps of paper could easily be updated, its worth pointing out that Sakowicz's account is subtly different.

It doesn't really mention posters - and since it would be pointless to place notices for the Ghetto on the outskirts of the city, if it has any meaning at all (which is doubtful) it must mean a physical announcement. Do strive for accuracy at all times, Mr Caution.
Very true, and since Sakowicz didn't include a copy of the announcement in downloadable form, it is clearly at odds with the reference made by Kruk.

Kruk, 2 September: "The morning, Vilna Commissioner Hingst distributed an order around the city that the murderers of the two Germans killed by Jews on Sunday were shot. To prevent similar cases, Jews are allowed to be in the street from 10 in the morning until 3 in the afternoon, except for men and women with passes . . . So the Jews are to be punished." Kruk probably didn't see the announcement, as his note had it a bit mixed up. He also hadn't been briefed by the NKVD or others that the party line was to be that the shooting incident was phony. Lord have mercy.

Sakowicz, 2 September: "These shootings were a punishment for the bogus shooting at German soldiers in Wilno on Sunday, August 31. There, on the outskirts of the city, Hingst announced that Jews would be punished for the shooting on the previous Sunday." It simply could not be from this brief note that Sakowicz means the same announcement as Kruk - which neither apparently saw. These have to be references to separate things, Sakowicz's more likely referring to a fireside chat given by Hingst or a campfire talk outside the city. I think that is clear from the two statements.

The forgers of Sakowicz, whilst getting word from the MFF that the shooting was a staged pretext, 1) were apparently quite sloppy making such an egregious and tell-tale slip in not mentioning the precise physical form of the announcement, copying it or at least describing the type and languages in which it appeared and 2) forgot, fatally to the historiography of the Holocaust it would seem, to coordinate with the forgers of Kruk. But then again, we are still missing the evidence for any forgery at all, let alone for the claimed and fanciful Moscow Forgery Factory. Your stating those things you have no doubt of, you will understand, is of utterly no interest to me. What is revealing is to see which untruth you will try spinning and unloading about the scenario involved.

A bit of slight of hand - Glezer (Glazier) is another rendition of Szklana - since Niemiecka and Glezer (Szklana) don't intersect, can't intersect as they run parallel.
http://www.deathcamps.org/occupation/pic/bigvilniusghettomap.jpg
we have a very odd mistake from our "eyewitness", on the spot diarist. Lord knows there aren't that many streets to choose from. Possibly the author was doing his level best to try and create another provocation, different to the one in July at Szklanna and Wielka corner.

I don't see why you are all making such a fuss. 300 unjustly executed in a reprisal for a phony incident at Szklanna and Wielka street seems quite terrible enough. There seems no need to run a reprise reprisal again in September.
Why thank you for making clear, in your own pedantic manner, what Harshav did much more simply and which has already been noted, that the incident could not have occurred where Kruk first noted. Golly, it is good to have a pedant on board. Now, it could not be that in over 700+ pages Kruk never made a slip or jotted down something in error or noted a rumor that could not be substantiated. Is that your point? And where was it stated that Kruk was an "eyewitness" to all this? Lord, the diary makes pretty clear that Kruk was not an eyewitness to the "incident" itself - or to the immediate reprisal action or probably to the first removals of Jews from their neighborhoods and certainly not of their progress to Lukishki and then from there to Ponar. As I wrote earlier, Kruk wrote precisely about what he "learned" (not witnessed) in the case of the removals, ticking off street names. As to the incident itself, although Kruk opened his account "On the corner of Niemecka and Glezer Streets, a shot was heard. They say a German was wounded," he added, "someone pointed to a Jew from a house on that corner of Glezer and Wielka Streets, the one who must have shot the German," then describing a pogrom "against Jewish property [that] spread over Glezer and Jatkowa Streets." As a result of the actions following this initial pogrom he had learned of, Kruk gave a figure of 5000 Jews driven out, although clearly he was not as you insinuate claiming to be an eyewitness to each and every step of this process. p83 None of this remotely suggests a postwar trump-up or sleight of hand, your two charges. Rudashevksi in his diary gives a different location for the provocation, but he seems to mean by provocation the actual removals - indicating that he was hearing additional or somewhat different information to that reaching Kruk. What this suggests is that the sources largely mesh on this series of events and their impact on the Jewish quarter, with some details not corroborated, as one would expect in a large, confusing event noted in real time, and that Kruk was as I had described him, an observer / chronicler, trying to gather information and document to the best of his abilities what he saw, heard, learned, and gathered. His diary is useful because of its immediacy and in that it meshes well with other accounts and documents. That Kruk, who possessed a strong point of view, can be shown to be honest and a good chronicler reinforces the value of his document.
 
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