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Merged General Holocaust denial discussion thread

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It's funny, you routinely accuse others of not believing what they say yet it's completely obvious that this is nothing more than massive projection.

Haven't you seen that Thomas Kues in The Smith Report labelled Krema Deniers as Hasbara agents. Perhaps he was referring to Peter Gast.

Today you started a no-planer thread in the 9/11 forum purely to provoke people. You know, your Illuminati drivel is much more engaging than your tedious efforts to deny the Holocaust.

Just trying to generate some traffic for my handlers. Incidentally, you do remember that it was you who first suggested bringing the schtick over to JREF?

It really was a brilliant suggestion, I can make no promises but I think you could be up for a citation next time the GAIC (Grand Anti-Illuminati Council) meets in 2015.
 
If it's not obvious to you, you haven't studied post war history. I recommend reading some books to give you a grounding in the topic. Douglas Botting's In the Ruins of the Reich, MacDonogh's After the Reich and Bessel's Germany 1945 are three of the more recent books on the topic. The United States in Germany 1944-1955 by Harold Zink, IIRC, is pretty good. Lucius Clay's Decision in Germany is quite good because it was written so close to the actual events and as such captures the zeitgeist of the era. The author's pro-America bias is clear but that just makes his treatment of certain topics (e.g., the Malmedy affair or the 'rugged' conditions under which the United States held German soldiers for three years) all the more revealing.

If that's too much work for you, explain to me your understanding of what "unconditional surrender" means and how that manifested itself in different parts of Germany immediately after the war. Understanding what life was like for the average German in 1945 is necessary to understand how Germany got to be the way it is today. Tell me what you already know and we can go from there.

I have studied post war history and it's not obvious to me. Now, please answer the question and stop dodging.
 
Haven't you seen that Thomas Kues in The Smith Report labelled Krema Deniers as Hasbara agents. Perhaps he was referring to Peter Gast.



Just trying to generate some traffic for my handlers. Incidentally, you do remember that it was you who first suggested bringing the schtick over to JREF?

It really was a brilliant suggestion, I can make no promises but I think you could be up for a citation next time the GAIC (Grand Anti-Illuminati Council) meets in 2015.

Nobody likes a troll.

Just thought you should know.
 
Haven't you seen that Thomas Kues in The Smith Report labelled Krema Deniers as Hasbara agents. Perhaps he was referring to Peter Gast.

Since when is the word of a Holocaust denier reliable? Besides, it's well known that conspiracy theorists routinely accuse each other of being shills or paid agents simply because they cannot persuade each other to espouse their pet obsessions. After all, you have repeatedly accused Mattogno of being a Mossad agent, so it's unsurprising that one of Mattogno's associates accuses you of being one.

Just trying to generate some traffic for my handlers. Incidentally, you do remember that it was you who first suggested bringing the schtick over to JREF?

It really was a brilliant suggestion, I can make no promises but I think you could be up for a citation next time the GAIC (Grand Anti-Illuminati Council) meets in 2015.

yes, it was a brilliant suggestion. Within a month or two at the outside, your credibility here had plummetted to below zero.

I'd still like to see whether you or any other Holocaust denier can ever manage to discuss their obsession in a coherent fashion, rather than dancing around like fairies to avoid doing so.
 
uke2se, I do not wished to be liked by you or by anyone who spends their time in conspiracy forums.

I said "nobody". That you do not wish to be liked by me is obvious. You are desperate for mine and others' attention, though, in a really pathetic way.
 
Since when is the word of a Holocaust denier reliable? Besides, it's well known that conspiracy theorists routinely accuse each other of being shills or paid agents simply because they cannot persuade each other to espouse their pet obsessions. After all, you have repeatedly accused Mattogno of being a Mossad agent, so it's unsurprising that one of Mattogno's associates accuses you of being one.



yes, it was a brilliant suggestion. Within a month or two at the outside, your credibility here had plummetted to below zero.
Right, before I came to JREF there was a real risk the world was going to be overrun by Krema Denial. Which was thwarted by my abysmal performance on JREF.

Have you hit the plonk?
I'd still like to see whether you or any other Holocaust denier can ever manage to discuss their obsession in a coherent fashion, rather than dancing around like fairies to avoid doing so.

Why should we bother? Anyone who is interested can go to Birkenau and see the complete absence of underground flues at Kremas 2-5 or go to Treblinka and see an absence of mass graves.

All the rest is jibber-jabber. What is interesting is not the Hoax - which is self evident - but what it is that maintains the Hoax. And the hideous toll of blood, destruction and suffering it wreaks across the world every day.
 
Right, before I came to JREF there was a real risk the world was going to be overrun by Krema Denial. Which was thwarted by my abysmal performance on JREF.

Have you hit the plonk?


Why should we bother? Anyone who is interested can go to Birkenau and see the complete absence of underground flues at Kremas 2-5 or go to Treblinka and see an absence of mass graves.

All the rest is jibber-jabber. What is interesting is not the Hoax - which is self evident - but what it is that maintains the Hoax. And the hideous toll of blood, destruction and suffering it wreaks across the world every day.

Denial in all its glory.
 
Right, before I came to JREF there was a real risk the world was going to be overrun by Krema Denial. Which was thwarted by my abysmal performance on JREF.

Have you hit the plonk?

I recommended you join in the full certainty that your Krema Denial would convince no one. I was primarily interested in observing how others outside of the narrow confines of the HD 'debate' would react to you. I must admit, not in my wildest imagination could I have predicted that you would take like a duck to water to embracing every single lunatic theory that you thought might get a rise out of people.

Perhaps for your next act, you should take the travelling little grey rabbit roadshow to the David Icke forum. Tough crowd - many might actually agree with you, but some won't, so you could get your jollies both by antagonising people as well as by wowing some stoned imbeciles over there who might actually fall for your rubbish. Win-win, really. Off you toddle...

Why should we bother? Anyone who is interested can go to Birkenau and see the complete absence of underground flues at Kremas 2-5 or go to Treblinka and see an absence of mass graves.

All the rest is jibber-jabber. What is interesting is not the Hoax - which is self evident - but what it is that maintains the Hoax. And the hideous toll of blood, destruction and suffering it wreaks across the world every day.

LOL. So instead of discussing eight sites you discuss only two, fail. You pull a Saggy and declare the Hoax is self-evident. Then you allude darkly to 'what it is that maintains the Hoax', with no explanation. And finally you assert that the Hoax is responsible for a 'hideous toll of blood, destruction and suffering... across the world every day'.

Really?


OK, I don't care if you have anything sensible to say about the Holocaust as a historical event anymore. I just want to hear about how the Hoax is "maintained" and how it causes death and destruction across the globe. In detail, with evidence, of course.

... what's that? You don't have any? You don't want to spoil the surprise or reveal your feeble hand of cards? Writing more than four sentences cuts into valuable trolling time?
 
I recommended you join in the full certainty that your Krema Denial would convince no one. I was primarily interested in observing how others outside of the narrow confines of the HD 'debate' would react to you. I must admit, not in my wildest imagination could I have predicted that you would take like a duck to water to embracing every single lunatic theory that you thought might get a rise out of people.

Perhaps for your next act, you should take the travelling little grey rabbit roadshow to the David Icke forum. Tough crowd - many might actually agree with you, but some won't, so you could get your jollies both by antagonising people as well as by wowing some stoned imbeciles over there who might actually fall for your rubbish. Win-win, really. Off you toddle...



LOL. So instead of discussing eight sites you discuss only two, fail. You pull a Saggy and declare the Hoax is self-evident. Then you allude darkly to 'what it is that maintains the Hoax', with no explanation. And finally you assert that the Hoax is responsible for a 'hideous toll of blood, destruction and suffering... across the world every day'.

Really?


OK, I don't care if you have anything sensible to say about the Holocaust as a historical event anymore. I just want to hear about how the Hoax is "maintained" and how it causes death and destruction across the globe. In detail, with evidence, of course.

... what's that? You don't have any? You don't want to spoil the surprise or reveal your feeble hand of cards? Writing more than four sentences cuts into valuable trolling time?

Oh well, you may be right.

It doesn't really matter. Come 2015 and we win anyway. I always kind of hoped for a Man From Snowy River moment from sheer vanity.

And he ran them single-handed till their sides were white with foam.
He followed like a bloodhound on their track,
Till they halted cowed and beaten, then he turned their heads for home,
And alone and unassisted brought them back.
But his hardy mountain pony he could scarcely raise a trot,
He was blood from hip to shoulder from the spur;
But his pluck was still undaunted, and his courage fiery hot,
For never yet was mountain horse a cur.

Sorry about the plonk slur, it was unworthy.
 
German academic freedom.

Corsair on page 129 asks why German academics and historians do exercise their freedom and lead the way in publishing articles that question the Holocaust. Quite right. I mean, its not as if anyone was going to lock them up.
 
What is interesting is not the Hoax . . . but what it is that maintains the Hoax. And the hideous toll of blood, destruction and suffering it wreaks across the world every day.
But not interesting enough for you or any other denier to explain even when asked to, directly, in this and on other forums: instead of offering us an explanation of how the hoax developed, with specifics, you dance around and leave little droppings now and then.
 
Corsair on page 129 asks why German academics and historians do exercise their freedom and lead the way in publishing articles that question the Holocaust. Quite right. I mean, its not as if anyone was going to lock them up.

Indeed, no, it's not like anyone was going to lock them up for most of the postwar era, and even today the current law on incitement to racial hatred (revised in the mid-90s) is softer on genuine scholarly research than it is on overt propaganda.

That law could not prevent the appearence of a properly researched work offering firm proof of what had actually happened to the Jews of Europe in Nazi hands, and demonstrating that of the 5-6 million assumed dead, there was hard evidence that 4-5 million had survived. But no such work will ever be written, because there is no such hard evidence.

The simple fact is that denial has never convinced more than a couple of academics in Germany, and those it has convinced, are now dead from natural causes. They were part of the same Flakhelfer generation that produced Helmut Kohl along with many other public figures of the second half of the existence of West Germany, like Guenther Grass or the historian Martin Broszat. Or indeed, Ernst Nolte, who flirted with some revisionist ideas before rejecting the fundamental arguments and who thus earned himself an irate attack from a younger Germar Rudolf, writing under one of his many pseudonyms.

Unfortunately for you, German revisionists have tended towards the neo-Nazi or psychotic, deny-everything end of the spectrum. This is undeniable. Walendy and Staeglich were NPD, Weckert was an associate of Michael Kuehnen, the brains behind the Kameradschaften. Christophersen ran his own little boutique nutzi party. Others belonged very much to the Nazi-era generation, like Heinz Roth, an admitted former SA member, or SS-Obersturmbannfuehrer Peter Kleist. Their pamphlets are so poorly organised, researched and written that I almost have a soft spot for them, so dreadful are they, and it's not difficult to see how unconvincing they would be to an academic in the 60s or 70s, never mind today.

These homegrown truthseekers successfully undermined any possibility of propagating revisionist ideas beyond the far right, by engaging in blatantly propagandistic activities that fell foul of public-order offences before the IHR was even active. When you have a guy like ex-Hitlerjugend division member Friedhelm Busse staging demonstrations about the Holocaust lie, then you have a serious PR problem. Or if your coterie decides that a really effective way to spread the word about revisionism is to drone on about Anne Frank's diary being a hoax, and thus to trigger private prosecutions for libel from Otto Frank until his death in the early 1980s, which were routinely lost by the deniers in question.

The homegrown truthseekers had an unerring knack of stepping up their revisionist propaganda offensives at precisely the same moments as neo-Nazis decided to resort to terrorism (late 70s/early 80s) or thuggish violence against immigrants and asylum-seekers (early 90s). Unsurprisingly, laws got tightened each time there were such outbreaks of neo-Nazi activity. The connection is undeniable, and explicitly so with the lex Deckert revision of article 130 in the mid-90s.

The funniest thing about the 'gosh academics are afraid of prosecution and afraid for their careers' line is how in this case, it panders to a racist stereotype of Germans as law-abiding Prussians which is obvious nonsense. No chilling effect could ever be 100% effective, and yet in this case, it seemingly is. That's truly remarkable.

It's also belied by the fact that academics in other countries aren't chasing the revisionist hare, either, no matter what laws are in place. You'd be hard pressed to scrape together the names of 40 professors or other academics who have flirted with revisionism since 1945. The nutters over in the 9/11 forum wave around a list of 400, and they're all crazy.
 
Well gee LGR the key to good trolling is to appear to be rational and NOT trolling. Over the top obvious trolling just makes you look silly. I suggest you drop this name, take a week or two off and come back and try again.
 
The Rwandan genocide of 1994 claimed the lives of over 500,000 in just 100 days—that's at least 5,000 per day, using mostly machetes. So clearly where there's a will to exterminate large numbers of people a way will be found.

According to Wikipedia (and other posters here), around 800,000 people were murdered during the Rwandan genocide. That's a big number. It's not as big as the 900,000 deaths that the court in the Stangl trial determined occurred at Treblinka. It's not even as high as the 870,000 that the USHMM says were killed at Treblinka. But the numbers killed in Rwanda and the numbers killed in Treblinka are close enough to make a meaningful comparison.

Now, were all the people killed in Rwanda murdered, buried, dug up, burned, and reburied within a twelve acre plot of land that shows no evidence of this activity? Then there's really no comparison, is there?
 
Now, were all the people killed in Rwanda murdered, buried, dug up, burned, and reburied within a twelve acre plot of land that shows no evidence of this activity?

No evidence?
1) We have the pits the bodies were first buried in

http://www.deathcamps.org/treblinka/pic/bigp51.jpg

2) We have the 2,000 square metres of human ash.....the surface is covered for about 2 hectares by a mixture of ashes and sand. In this mixture, one finds countless human bones, often still covered with tissue remains, which are in a condition of decomposition. During the inspection, which I made with the assistance of an expert in forensic medicine, it was determined that the ashes are without any doubt of human origin (Justice Lukaszkiewicz)

3) We have the actual "worker" eye witnesses talking about actually doing it(Oskar Strawczynski) The graves could never be emptied entirely, because blood mixed with water accumulated at the bottom. Motorized pumps were set up to draw it out. However, they could never manage to drain the bottom few meters, and so the graves were simply covered over

(Abraham Krzepicki) ....These ditches were 60 or 70 meters long. They were also very deep, but I could not tell how deep they were because the ditches to which we had been assigned were already filled with many layers of corpses. The graves remained open through the night and the next day more bodies were piled into them. While I was in Treblinka, only the small ditch to the left, where I had worked on the first day, was closed. By the time we came out there in the morning, the excavator was already in operation, and digging out new giant graves.

4) We have the SS C.O. of the camp talking about the burial pits. (Franz Stangl) "it was always a huge mass… they were naked, packed together, running, being driven with whips" & "I think it started the day I first saw the Totenlager in Treblinka. I remember Wirth standing there, next to the pits full of blue-black corpses.

You are simply denying evidence.
 
Taking someone's overcoat does not imply gassing.

You are now pretending to forget all the surrounding evidence as that is your denial technique. Why would SS be able to take 259,000 "good reusable" overcoats off people who were sent to Treblinka II in winter? The answer is because they were dead.

Please explain "in depth" your alternative explanation that matches all the existing evidence.
 
No evidence?
1) We have the pits the bodies were first buried in

http://www.deathcamps.org/treblinka/pic/bigp51.jpg

2) We have the 2,000 square metres of human ash.....the surface is covered for about 2 hectares by a mixture of ashes and sand. In this mixture, one finds countless human bones, often still covered with tissue remains, which are in a condition of decomposition. During the inspection, which I made with the assistance of an expert in forensic medicine, it was determined that the ashes are without any doubt of human origin (Justice Lukaszkiewicz)

3) We have the actual "worker" eye witnesses talking about actually doing it(Oskar Strawczynski) The graves could never be emptied entirely, because blood mixed with water accumulated at the bottom. Motorized pumps were set up to draw it out. However, they could never manage to drain the bottom few meters, and so the graves were simply covered over

(Abraham Krzepicki) ....These ditches were 60 or 70 meters long. They were also very deep, but I could not tell how deep they were because the ditches to which we had been assigned were already filled with many layers of corpses. The graves remained open through the night and the next day more bodies were piled into them. While I was in Treblinka, only the small ditch to the left, where I had worked on the first day, was closed. By the time we came out there in the morning, the excavator was already in operation, and digging out new giant graves.

4) We have the SS C.O. of the camp talking about the burial pits. (Franz Stangl) "it was always a huge mass… they were naked, packed together, running, being driven with whips" & "I think it started the day I first saw the Totenlager in Treblinka. I remember Wirth standing there, next to the pits full of blue-black corpses.

You are simply denying evidence.

That's just crapola.
 
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