Merged General Holocaust denial discussion thread

[Sword_Of_Truth]

There is no they. There is only an anonymous quest for the truth.

Edited by Tricky: 

Edited for civility.

NAZISM is dead. Good riddance.

As I said above, some of these guys don't care about the nazis, they just hate jews.

Revisionism is the freeing of the German people of the lies used to vilify and subjugate them by parasites and haters.

Oh good lord... not only do you not know anything that happened between 1939 and 1945, but you don't know anything that happened afterward either.

After WW2, with the cold war looming, the west knew that Germany was more useful as a strong ally against communism than an impoverished serf state. Billions were poured into rebuilding Europe after WW2 including West Germany. When Soviet forces laid siege to Berlin, the US launched the largest airborne supply operation in history in order to save the Germans from slavery.

 

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Could almost 100,000 Jewish people a month be gassed and cremated in secret?

Forgotten your humiliation by Rincewind already, have you?

I wasn't going to join in this thread, but...

I think I can help Clayton, so that he doesn’t need to write complicated computer programs - I did the following calculations using Excel! Please check out the following, to see if his theory had been vindicated.... or not.

Around December 1940, Hitler decided to invade Russia - Operation Barbarossa. The date of the invasion was 22 Jun 1941, so it happened around 6 months after the decision.

A few statistics:
Around 3.2-3.5 million German soldiers were moved to the Soviet Frontier. This total included both the Wehrmacht (Army) and Luftwaffe (Air Force).
Something like 98 army divisions were involved in this move, 69 infantry, 19 panzer and 10 motorised. Many of these would have transferred from France, where they had been expecting to invade Britain.
Now full-strength infantry divisions had around 17,000 men, panzer divisions 16,500 and motorised 15,500.
This gives around 1.2 million infantry, 315,000 Panzer troops and 150,000 motorised, totalling 1.65 million divisional troops.
It took about 50 trains to move an infantry division, 80 per panzer division and 70 per motorised.
So - this results in a total requirement of nearly 3,500 trains for infantry divisions, 1,500 for panzer divisions and 700 for motorised divisions.
That gives us a total of around 5,700 trains. That’s an average of around 300 troops per train, plus all of their heavy weapons, transport and equipment.
Now in the 1940’s only around 60% of the strength of the Wehrmacht were in divisions, the reminder being support and service troops. This calculates at around a million additional troops, who themselves needed some 3,800 trains.
This means that in six months the Wehrmacht moved 2.75 million troops, to Poland and Romania, many from France using 9,500 trains in total.
This means that on average 365 trains were used per week (around 50-60 a day), just to transport army soldiers. At the same time, many Luftwaffe ground personnel had to undergo the same journey.

Just using the army numbers, we can now extrapolate some figures for Clayton.

The SS used to pack 50 people into each of the train wagons. This gives a train containing 2,500 people.
The Wehrmacht used 9,500 trains to transport two and three quarter million troops, plus their equipment and weapons, in six months.
9,500 trains, at 2,500 per train, allows 23.75 million to be transported - that’s nearly 50 million per year.

If we use 6,000,000 people and 3 years for the holocaust, then we have:
6 million people at 2,500 per train require 2,400 trains.
2,400 trains over 150 weeks means an average of 16 per week, or 2-3 a day.

Wow! A couple of trains per day is impossible!

 

[Dogzilla]

Clayton Moore asked:

Could almost 100,000 Jewish people a month be gassed and cremated in secret?

And Sword of Truth responded with this:

Forgotten your humiliation by Rincewind already, have you?

Originally Posted by Rincewind View Post
I wasn't going to join in this thread, but...

I think I can help Clayton, so that he doesn’t need to write complicated computer programs - I did the following calculations using Excel! Please check out the following, to see if his theory had been vindicated.... or not.

Around December 1940, Hitler decided to invade Russia - Operation Barbarossa. The date of the invasion was 22 Jun 1941, so it happened around 6 months after the decision.

A few statistics:
Around 3.2-3.5 million German soldiers were moved to the Soviet Frontier. This total included both the Wehrmacht (Army) and Luftwaffe (Air Force).
Something like 98 army divisions were involved in this move, 69 infantry, 19 panzer and 10 motorised. Many of these would have transferred from France, where they had been expecting to invade Britain.
Now full-strength infantry divisions had around 17,000 men, panzer divisions 16,500 and motorised 15,500.
This gives around 1.2 million infantry, 315,000 Panzer troops and 150,000 motorised, totalling 1.65 million divisional troops.
It took about 50 trains to move an infantry division, 80 per panzer division and 70 per motorised.
So - this results in a total requirement of nearly 3,500 trains for infantry divisions, 1,500 for panzer divisions and 700 for motorised divisions.
That gives us a total of around 5,700 trains. That’s an average of around 300 troops per train, plus all of their heavy weapons, transport and equipment.
Now in the 1940’s only around 60% of the strength of the Wehrmacht were in divisions, the reminder being support and service troops. This calculates at around a million additional troops, who themselves needed some 3,800 trains.
This means that in six months the Wehrmacht moved 2.75 million troops, to Poland and Romania, many from France using 9,500 trains in total.
This means that on average 365 trains were used per week (around 50-60 a day), just to transport army soldiers. At the same time, many Luftwaffe ground personnel had to undergo the same journey.

Just using the army numbers, we can now extrapolate some figures for Clayton.

The SS used to pack 50 people into each of the train wagons. This gives a train containing 2,500 people.
The Wehrmacht used 9,500 trains to transport two and three quarter million troops, plus their equipment and weapons, in six months.
9,500 trains, at 2,500 per train, allows 23.75 million to be transported - that’s nearly 50 million per year.

If we use 6,000,000 people and 3 years for the holocaust, then we have:
6 million people at 2,500 per train require 2,400 trains.
2,400 trains over 150 weeks means an average of 16 per week, or 2-3 a day.

Wow! A couple of trains per day is impossible!

Lurkers please take notice here of a variation on the common holocaust scholar ploy of offering evidence that is not evidence of extermination as evidence of extermination.

To prove to Clayton Moore that gassing and cremating 100,000 Jews a month in secret is possible, Sword of Truth quoted Rincewind who used mobilization statistics for Operation Barbarossa and extrapolated the data to the holocaust. Rincewind's calculations show us convincingly that six million Jews could be transported to the death camps over a three year period with an average of only two or three trains daily.

The obvious problem is that these calculations (if they are indeed correct) prove that people could be transported. It in no way addresses the question of how many people could be gassed and cremated.

You'll see this frequently in this particular area of historical interest: Substituting evidence that people were deported as evidence that they were exterminated, or, in this case, proving that X number of people could be transported so therefore that same number could be gassed and cremated.

 

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Lurkers please take notice here of a variation on the common holocaust scholar ploy of offering evidence that is not evidence of extermination as evidence of extermination.

To prove to Clayton Moore that gassing and cremating 100,000 Jews a month in secret is possible, Sword of Truth quoted Rincewind who used mobilization statistics for Operation Barbarossa and extrapolated the data to the holocaust. Rincewind's calculations show us convincingly that six million Jews could be transported to the death camps over a three year period with an average of only two or three trains daily.

The obvious problem is that these calculations (if they are indeed correct) prove that people could be transported. It in no way addresses the question of how many people could be gassed and cremated.

You'll see this frequently in this particular area of historical interest: Substituting evidence that people were deported as evidence that they were exterminated, or, in this case, proving that X number of people could be transported so therefore that same number could be gassed and cremated.

And here we have a convincing example of how the Master Race™ could take over Europe, yet their modern inheritors couldn't take over a childrens hospital.

Clayton Moore embarrassed and humiliated himself with a poor line of reasoning and yet has stuck to it despite it blowing up in his face.

Dogzilla can't seem to make the logical leap that a country that can build hundreds of trains and lay thousands of miles of track and move around hundreds of thousands of soldiers and millions of tons of materials, yet they just can't see how such an industrial powerhouse could come up with a way to kill a few thousand people a day.

 

[Corsair 115]

The obvious problem is that these calculations (if they are indeed correct) prove that people could be transported. It in no way addresses the question of how many people could be gassed and cremated.

Killing an average of 5,500 people per day equals about 165,000 killed in a month, which in turn is some 2 million killed in a year. Is 5,500 deaths per day, whether from shooting, gassing, starvation, disease, or being worked to death, impossible to achieve when spread across all of occupied Europe and a myriad of camps?

 

[MG1962]

Killing an average of 5,500 people per day equals about 165,000 killed in a month, which in turn is some 2 million killed in a year. Is 5,500 deaths per day, whether from shooting, gassing, starvation, disease, or being worked to death, impossible to achieve when spread across all of occupied Europe and a myriad of camps?

Well the Japanese pottered along at nearly 6 million a year without even trying.

Rather than being incredulous over the extreme numbers of Jews killed, a better question might be how come they managed to kill so few.

 

[MaxMurx]

Can you tell me something about the logic of transporting Millions of people over thousands of miles to kill them, then, when the war is approaching, evacuate those who were not yet killed, letting 250.000 die on death marches? The transport of many millions people would be a logistic problem even today. The energy which is required is missing in the war effort. Why does anyone intending to kill so many people first put them on such a journey instead of shooting them immediately or at least only a few blocks away from where they live (it cannot be to avoid witness as the BUNA and IG Farben complex in Auschwit had hundreds of thousands of workers)? When the war frontline is approaching why does the one intending to kill so many people evacuate the camps to which they were transported for being killed instead of leaving them exposed to the dangers of warfare? Why does anyone intending to kill so many people take them for evacuation on death marches back to the direction where they came from?. During those marches 250.000 died by exhaustion. Why didn't the killer kill them in the camps before the camps were abandonned? And i n the end: Why does anyone intending to kill so many people and who has a killing industry with a death rate of hundreds of thousands per month let so many survive ?

 

[Wroclaw]

Can you tell me something abnbout the logic of transporting Millions of people over thousands of miles to kill them, tghen, when the war is approaching, evacuate those who were not yet killed, killing 250.000 on death marches?

A couple of points to make:

(1) The majority of Jews were actually killed within a few days' walking distance from their homes or less. Soviet Jews tended to be killed in their own towns, as you suggest in your post. Consider also that you can walk across Poland in a few days, and Polish Jews made up fully half of all Holocaust deaths. So the number moved "thousands of miles" actually applied to relatively few Jews. In fact, it's only about 1100 miles from Athens to Auschwitz, which is the furthest distance Jews were moved, so "thousands" doesn't really apply at all. The largest Jewish communities were in Poland, the USSR, and Hungary, and from Budapest to Auschwitz is only 400 miles. After that, you're talking about France (1000 miles at most from the south to Auschwitz) and Romania, which had its own camp system. So the grand total of Jews who were transported 1000 miles or more was about a million — not "millions" — over nearly four years.

(2) People were marched to prevent them from being left behind to bear witness to what had happened. That 250,000 died on the way and then in camps after the marches (e.g., Belsen) supports my point rather than yours.

 

[Wroclaw]

Lurkers please take notice here of a variation on the common holocaust scholar ploy of offering evidence that is not evidence of extermination as evidence of extermination.

No, he's offering evidence that what was alleged as being impossible was, in fact, possible.

 

[Sword_Of_Truth]

During the Rawandan genocide, a band of primitive tribals exterminated 800,000 people in 100 days (8,000 per day for you slow at math types, you all know who I'm talking about) while marching about on foot armed with weapons similar in size and shape to the roman gladius.

According to Dogzilla and Clayton, a near modern army with tanks, jeeps, battleships, cruise missiles, jet fighters and ballistic missiles somehow can't kill half as many people per day because it's just too hard.

It's like someone heard "Master race" and thought they meant "special race" and signed up.

 

[MG1962]

MaxMurx - The first thing to understand with your line of questions, the evacuations were not a last minute decision. The first evacuations began in mid 44 as a way to replace losses of workers closer to Germany.

The forced marches didn't begin till late 44 when the Allies gained air superiority over the Reich. By early 45 the Soviet advance had so much momentum they began overtaking some of the evacuating Jews while still on their march.

Right up to the last day of the war, prisioners were being marched back and forth across Germany.

Was any of this logical? In hindsight no, but when you are reacting to developements day by day, looking back, some decisions can appear unfounded.

To add to this chaos, the SS acted independantly answering to Himmler who was one of Hitlers major fanbois. Himmler was also less than a sparkling intellect

 

[Wroclaw]

During the Rawandan genocide, a band of primitive tribals exterminated 800,000 people in 100 days (8,000 per day for you slow at math types, you all know who I'm talking about) while marching about on foot armed with weapons similar in size and shape to the roman gladius.

Not really. The vast majority of the killing was done in the first three or four weeks, and while much of this killing was done with farm implements, very much was also done by militias using small arms.

 

[little grey rabbit]

Why do so many people think the holocaust was a hoax?

Some people are just born brilliant
(also a test of my new sig.)

 

[Corsair 115]

Well the Japanese pottered along at nearly 6 million a year without even trying.

The Rwandan genocide of 1994 claimed the lives of over 500,000 in just 100 days—that's at least 5,000 per day, using mostly machetes. So clearly where there's a will to exterminate large numbers of people a way will be found.

 

[abaddon]

Self appointed Holocaust historians demand that about 3 million Jewish children, women, and men were gassed to death in concentration camps over a three year period as WWII was ending.

Just think about that phrase for a moment "and men were gassed to death in concentration camps over a three year period as WWII was ending"

"over a three year period"

"as WWII was ending"

The inconsistency is obvious.

 

[Clayton Moore]

A couple of points to make:

(1) The majority of Jews were actually killed within a few days' walking distance from their homes or less. Soviet Jews tended to be killed in their own towns, as you suggest in your post. Consider also that you can walk across Poland in a few days, and Polish Jews made up fully half of all Holocaust deaths. So the number moved "thousands of miles" actually applied to relatively few Jews. In fact, it's only about 1100 miles from Athens to Auschwitz, which is the furthest distance Jews were moved, so "thousands" doesn't really apply at all. The largest Jewish communities were in Poland, the USSR, and Hungary, and from Budapest to Auschwitz is only 400 miles. After that, you're talking about France (1000 miles at most from the south to Auschwitz) and Romania, which had its own camp system. So the grand total of Jews who were transported 1000 miles or more was about a million — not "millions" — over nearly four years.

(2) People were marched to prevent them from being left behind to bear witness to what had happened. That 250,000 died on the way and then in camps after the marches (e.g., Belsen) supports my point rather than yours.

Nice fabrications.

(1) And yet another shift of what happened.

(2) And yet they were given a choice to march or wait for the Russians.

These explanations for the unexplainable lapses into humanitarian acts by the "genocidal" Germans are pure lunacy.

The 250,000 number is lunacy also.

One should notice, if not completely numbed by the bombast of lies and exaggerations, that all the explanations of the alleged mass executions contains some ritual aspect that makes the killing more involved and labor intensive.

 

[Dogzilla]

And here we have a convincing example of how the Master Race™ could take over Europe, yet their modern inheritors couldn't take over a childrens hospital.

Clayton Moore embarrassed and humiliated himself with a poor line of reasoning and yet has stuck to it despite it blowing up in his face.

Dogzilla can't seem to make the logical leap that a country that can build hundreds of trains and lay thousands of miles of track and move around hundreds of thousands of soldiers and millions of tons of materials, yet they just can't see how such an industrial powerhouse could come up with a way to kill a few thousand people a day.

And now you're making the argument that if the Germans were capable of building an impressive rail transport infrastructure, murdering a few thousand innocent civilians every day wouldn't present a problem.

By that logic, since the United States also build an impressive rail transport infrastructure, we must've murdered six million Jews as well.

 

[Dogzilla]

Killing an average of 5,500 people per day equals about 165,000 killed in a month, which in turn is some 2 million killed in a year. Is 5,500 deaths per day, whether from shooting, gassing, starvation, disease, or being worked to death, impossible to achieve when spread across all of occupied Europe and a myriad of camps?

Of course it's possible to kill 5,500 people all across Europe every day. If you want to prove that that actually happened, however, you need more than evidence of how many people went somewhere on a train every day.

 

[Sword_Of_Truth]

And now you're making the argument that if the Germans were capable of building an impressive rail transport infrastructure, murdering a few thousand innocent civilians every day wouldn't present a problem.

By that logic, since the United States also build an impressive rail transport infrastructure, we must've murdered six million Jews as well.

A.) I was actually referring to their entire wartime economy and the level of militarization of their population.

B.) That's just @#$%ing stupid.

 

[Matthew Ellard]

Of course it's possible to kill 5,500 people all across Europe every day. If you want to prove that that actually happened, however, you need more than evidence of how many people went somewhere on a train every day.

And the 20,000 square metres of human ash at Treblinka II at the end of the rail spur, near the empty pits, suggests other evidence exists. Doesn't it? This is called "supporting evidence". Are you aware of this human ash at Treblinka II?

While we are talking about railways.....let us ask the Treblinka Station master what happened......

Franciszek Zabecki was the Station Master at Treblinka I throughout the entire existence of the Treblinka extermination camp. "This procedure was repeated twice more, until all sixty wagons had been shunted into the camp, and out again. Empty they returned to Warsaw for more 'settlers'."



http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org/revolt/zabecki.html