Merged General Holocaust denial discussion thread

[LemmyCaution]

After you're done you may explain why the camp populations didn't go completely berserk knowing 10s of thousands of their fellow Jews were being gassed/terminated every month.

Oh that's right millions were deported to the camps but none had a clue. Mums the word.

The gassing premise is a brain dead one. Didn't it follow the mass steaming and the mass electrocution premises?

Don't people crap and urinate when they die? I don't remember reading about this aspect of cleanup and while moving the bodies.

Perhaps you are not aware of what occurred when those prisoners "reserved" for various working roles in the death camps -- despite all their disadvantages -- concluded that their time was up. I don't know. There were serious revolts at 3 of the death camps. There are documented cases of resistance when some deported Jews arrived and were aware of what awaited them.

But more seriously you seem unaware of the process of extermination: your post is written as though 100s of 1000s Jewish inmates were sitting in camps waiting "their turn" and able to view the apparatus of mass murder. Have you seen a map of Treblinka? Have you read a single source on how Jews were processed at the various camps? As to the state of corpses at death, the issue is indeed, as you suggested, your memory. (Try p 64 of just this one source: http://books.google.com/books?id=Ij...&resnum=1&ved=0CC4Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false)

Your post comes across as utterly ignorant of the basic narrative. If you wish to challenge the narrative, you first have to be aware of it and second to state it correctly.

 

[Clayton Moore]

Several more strawmen from you, which like the previous strawman has been addressed repeatedly on this thread.

CM, your 'gotcha' questions have been dealt with often enough in the history books you haven't read. It's not up to anyone here to spell out all the details for you, it's up to you to know what your target actually is, otherwise you simply create a strawman. And you just missed your target, yet again.

Did the deportees know what awaited them at the camps? Quite a few did, especially those from Poland

Did they resist on arrival? Quite a few times.

Did they try to escape the camps if they were left alive for work? Most assuredly.

So your 'none had a clue' is already refuted.

Now try responding to what is in the history books, instead of the crap you picked up from rense.com

It'd also help if you stopped with the fallacies of the excluded middle. There's no reason why human behaviour should always be exclusively one thing or another, and several thousand years of recorded history indicate it usually isn't.

You certainly danced around that post.

 

[uke2se]

You certainly danced around that post.

No, he didn't. You just didn't understand him.

Now, why are you still posting here, Clayton? You have admitted you know absolutely nothing about the holocaust earlier in this thread. Why continue to flaunt your ignorance? Did you lose a bet or something?

 

[Clayton Moore]

Thus spake Clayton Moore on the twelfth

Perhaps Clayton Moore could tell me what these “true colors” are and why I should trouble to conceal them. I don’t know what Bau/ sop means.

I cannot blame anyone for ignoring a long and nuanced argument about the wretched Wiesel. Life is short enough. So I did not expect many people to read my piece. But I am astounded that anyone could read it thru and take my final remark literally. The discussion was about reasonable doubt. I was afraid I was coming too close to laboured sarcasm. Quoted in isolation, the remark might be taken as an endorsement. CM is such a strong patriot that he wants America to be an irony-free zone. Perhaps it already is

Absurdity is worshiped here to a point that your nuance, 10 posts in, is hardly discernible from the hysterical blather.

Sorry. I read your argument and suddenly the red absurdity meter flag popped up.

 

[Nick Terry]

Would you like some material for your book? I would be happy to oblige, but as a known Hasbara agent I would not be able to get onto any authentic revisionist site to be reference-able

It's funny, you routinely accuse others of not believing what they say yet it's completely obvious that this is nothing more than massive projection. Today you started a no-planer thread in the 9/11 forum purely to provoke people. You know, your Illuminati drivel is much more engaging than your tedious efforts to deny the Holocaust.

And no, I don't need more material for the book. I'd just like to see whether a Holocaust denier can ever manage to discuss their obsession in a coherent fashion, rather than dancing around like fairies to avoid doing so.

 

[cyclonic]

Again, you agree, that without the gas chambers and the alleged attempt of genocide against the Jewish people of Europe, there was no Holocaust.

Of course there was a holocaust!
the proof is why did the coitophobic fuhrer commit suicide in 1945?
he got das gas bill.
here is the proof: the bill (translated for your convienience).

 

[Wroclaw]

The end/post war rampage against the German people was a nightmare that dwarfed even the myth of the Holocaust. The haunting of that nightmare lingers.

How many Germans do you believe died after the war had ended?

 

[Corsair 115]

No I won't because the answer is obvious. Start with unconditional surrender and track the evolution of German society from that point forward.

Please, go into detail. Is the press controlled by the state there? Are academics and historians prevented from publishing? Have the records from the Nazi regime been locked away and no one can access them?

Unless you can substantiate the specific reasons for Germans themselves to be so quiet on the matter your justification is less than worthless since it contains not an iota of detail.

Again, you agree, that without the gas chambers and the alleged attempt of genocide against the Jewish people of Europe, there was no Holocaust.

The end/post war rampage against the German people was a nightmare that dwarfed even the myth of the Holocaust. The haunting of that nightmare lingers.

Again, a nonsensical answer. At least Dogzilla tried though he completely failed to offer even a shred of evidence to support his claim.


So, once more, please lay out the case with citations that explains in clear terms why the citizenry of Germany are not the ones leading the charge to prove the Holocaust did not happen when they have the most to gain from proving that.

 

[Corsair 115]

Now, why are you still posting here, Clayton? You have admitted you know absolutely nothing about the holocaust earlier in this thread. Why continue to flaunt your ignorance? Did you lose a bet or something?

Perhaps he's an intellectual masochist and enjoys the floggings he gets here.

 

[Dogzilla]

It might be obvious to you, but it isn't to me. Please answer the question. If you do not, it will be clear that you're simply dodging.

If it's not obvious to you, you haven't studied post war history. I recommend reading some books to give you a grounding in the topic. Douglas Botting's In the Ruins of the Reich, MacDonogh's After the Reich and Bessel's Germany 1945 are three of the more recent books on the topic. The United States in Germany 1944-1955 by Harold Zink, IIRC, is pretty good. Lucius Clay's Decision in Germany is quite good because it was written so close to the actual events and as such captures the zeitgeist of the era. The author's pro-America bias is clear but that just makes his treatment of certain topics (e.g., the Malmedy affair or the 'rugged' conditions under which the United States held German soldiers for three years) all the more revealing.

If that's too much work for you, explain to me your understanding of what "unconditional surrender" means and how that manifested itself in different parts of Germany immediately after the war. Understanding what life was like for the average German in 1945 is necessary to understand how Germany got to be the way it is today. Tell me what you already know and we can go from there.

 

[Wroclaw]

If that's too much work for you, explain to me your understanding of what "unconditional surrender" means and how that manifested itself in different parts of Germany immediately after the war. Understanding what life was like for the average German in 1945 is necessary to understand how Germany got to be the way it is today. Tell me what you already know and we can go from there.

Are you of the belief that what was done to the Germans after the war ended was worse than what was done to the Jews during the war?

 

[Alt+F4]

You folks are debating a 9/11 "No Planer" about the Holocaust....really?

 

[Dogzilla]

The main problem with Rincewind's amusing attempt at comparison was that staging and many other managing concerns were not concerns for military operations.

It is true that you can't compare transporting soldiers and transporting civilians. Doing so just makes one look ignorant. But it's also true that Nazi Germany did deport large numbers of civilians, not just Jews. So moving civilians to death camps isn't an insurmountable problem. The question of why you would move them so far just to kill them is reasonable. But it's the killing them two thousand at a time in anywhere from three to thirty minutes and then disposing of the corpses without physical and bureaucratic evidence of doing so that puts the gas chambers in the realm of fantasy.

 

[Nick Terry]

If that's too much work for you, explain to me your understanding of what "unconditional surrender" means and how that manifested itself in different parts of Germany immediately after the war. Understanding what life was like for the average German in 1945 is necessary to understand how Germany got to be the way it is today. Tell me what you already know and we can go from there.

No, you go from there.

Sixty-six years have elapsed since 1945, with major events such as the creation of two separate German states in 1949, return of sovereignty to West Germany in 1955, and the reunification of the two German states in 1990, which is coming up on 21 years in the past. In addition to those milestones, there have been political upheavals, many social and cultural changes and a lot of economic growth. One would have to point to major turning points like the establishment of the Berlin Wall, '68, Ostpolitik and the 'German Autumn' of 1977 to fully grasp what has happened inside Germany since 1945. Several generations have passed and most of the people alive in 1945 are now dead.

The question you have dodged is worth restating:

please explain why this move to prove the Holocaust never happened isn't being spearheaded by Germans themselves seeing as they are the ones most affected by it and they are the ones closest to the surviving original records and documentation of the Nazi regime.

I'll tell you one reason why denial is as dead as a doornail in Germany today: Horst Mahler. The last spasm of denial in the public eye in Germany involved a former left-wing terrorist turned outright neo-Nazi sieg heiling his way deliberately into the courtroom, without even the pretense of any kind of scholarship or thought, just a load of warmed over antisemitic and Nazi cliches. Yeah, that's the way to convince the general public or academics or journalists or politicians...

Today, there is literally no revisionist activity in Germany. Revisionism died five years ago over there when the remaining deniers couldn't keep their journal going and stopped publishing anything. It died because nearly everyone who had been active in the 80s and 90s was a pensioner and started literally dying of old age. The entire country produced precisely one revisionist author of moderate seriousness in the past 20 years who was not already old enough to collect a bus pass, ie Germar Rudolf.

In the same time-frame, many thousands of German academics have emigrated to take up positions in universities worldwide, and not one of them has uttered a peep in support of denial.

The people on behalf of whom revisionist loonies pretend to be crusading don't want to know.

 

[Corsair 115]

If it's not obvious to you, you haven't studied post war history. I recommend reading some books to give you a grounding in the topic. Douglas Botting's In the Ruins of the Reich, MacDonogh's After the Reich and Bessel's Germany 1945 are three of the more recent books on the topic. The United States in Germany 1944-1955 by Harold Zink, IIRC, is pretty good. Lucius Clay's Decision in Germany is quite good because it was written so close to the actual events and as such captures the zeitgeist of the era. The author's pro-America bias is clear but that just makes his treatment of certain topics (e.g., the Malmedy affair or the 'rugged' conditions under which the United States held German soldiers for three years) all the more revealing.

And what precisely does any of that have to do with explaining why German citizens today are not the ones leading the charge to prove the Holocaust didn't happen? I would submit they are a lot closer to their own history than you are.

Once again: Is the press controlled by the state there? Are academics and historians prevented from publishing? Have the records from the Nazi regime been locked away and no one can access them? Has the entire population of Germany been brainwashed?

If that's too much work for you, explain to me your understanding of what "unconditional surrender" means and how that manifested itself in different parts of Germany immediately after the war.

Japan surrendered unconditionally as well. What does unconditional surrender have to do with anything?

Understanding what life was like for the average German in 1945 is necessary to understand how Germany got to be the way it is today. Tell me what you already know and we can go from there.

Well, Germany might have spared itself three months of suffering had its leadership had the wisdom to recognize it had undoubtedly lost the war after its defeat in the Battle of the Bulge (as was obvious to anyone with even a shred of rationality) and surrendered then. Germany could have spared itself seven months of suffering had its leadership had the wisdom to recognize that it had lost the war in the autumn of 1944 (as was obvious to anyone with even a shred of rationality) and surrendered then.

But it did not surrender. It instead fought on, stupidly, foolishly, wasting the lives of its own citizens to delay an outcome that had been plainly obvious months earlier.

So you ought to lay the blame for the suffering of Germany and Germans at the feet of the Nazi government. It was they who brought the country to the brink of utter destruction.

 

[LemmyCaution]

The question of why you would move them so far just to kill them is reasonable.

again, Warsaw to Treblinka is 65 mi (105km) or thereabouts; Cieszanow, from which 5000 Jews were sent to Belzec in April '42, is 18 mi (30km) from the site of the death camp at Belzec - and so on - where would the exterminations take place, in local high schools, in shopping areas, in public parks - or maybe in secluded woods a short distance from where the victims lived?

 

[Wroclaw]

It is true that you can't compare transporting soldiers and transporting civilians. Doing so just makes one look ignorant. But it's also true that Nazi Germany did deport large numbers of civilians, not just Jews. So moving civilians to death camps isn't an insurmountable problem.

Correct.

The question of why you would move them so far just to kill them is reasonable.

Incorrect. Most of them were not moved very far at all, as already demonstrated.

But it's the killing them two thousand at a time in anywhere from three to thirty minutes and then disposing of the corpses without physical and bureaucratic evidence of doing so that puts the gas chambers in the realm of fantasy.

Once again, incorrect. First of all, anyone who said it took three minutes was clearly wrong, and you know that. Beyond that initial bit of dishonesty, you continue to deny evidence when it's been repeatedly shown to you.

 

[Matthew Ellard]

so if i understand you correctly. Some 2 million Jews were processed by Aktion Reinhardt stations in Lublin, Auschwitz, Warthegau, Treblinka, Sobibor and Belzec.

And they collected 31000 male adult shoes. I can see I will need to work on my Holomaths skills.

Yes I agree. You failed to observe the dates and realise that this shipment was only partial for the execution period at Treblinka. You then failed to consider that children and women don't wear men's shoes. You then failed to realise that they only sent reusable shoes, coats and undies back to Warsaw.

99,000 men's over coats + 155,000 women's overcoats + 15,000 children's overcoats = 269,000 reusable overcoats early in the execution period.

Thank you for confirming to us your level of research and deductive skills.

 

[little grey rabbit]

Yes I agree. You failed to observe the dates and realise that this shipment was only partial for the execution period at Treblinka. You then failed to consider that children and women don't wear men's shoes. You then failed to realise that they only sent reusable shoes, coats and undies back to Warsaw.

99,000 men's over coats + 155,000 women's overcoats + 15,000 children's overcoats = 269,000 reusable overcoats early in the execution period.

Thank you for confirming to us your level of research and deductive skills.

Well it covers all the Hoefle telegram, n'est ce pas. To which you need to add Jews from Old Reich and Western Europe also transported East and those from Warthegau.

2 million might be a slight over-estimate, but not by much. In 1941 the Germans confiscated all the over-coats that Russian POWs wore as they were processed through Kiev. Bastards (in my opinion), but although this probably hastened the death of many, it is not code for sticking the POWs in gas chambers.

Taking someone's overcoat does not imply gassing.

 

[MG1962]

Taking someone's overcoat does not imply gassing.

It doesn't exclude it either