• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

General Holocaust Denial Discussion Part II

Status
Not open for further replies.
I'm sure the National Archives would be more than happy to answer a polite inquiry regarding your questions.

All right, I will ask them. The source you provided do not have the second page of the document. That is why I made the question.

However, you're getting a bit ahead of yourself, aren't you? You still haven't answered my questions regarding your "analysis" of the first document we talked about.

You really wish that questions answered...

If one of the reasons you think the March 1942 document is a "proven fraud" is because you claim the office code is incomplete, then you should easily be able to explain just how you know the office code is incomplete, tell us what's missing in the office code that would make it complete, and be able to show us (or provide a reference to) an example of a document that has this complete office code.

Due your religious persistence I will look into that matter.

First things first, SnakeTongue. Now please either answer my questions, or explain why you can't answer my questions.

As I said to another user, I do not think a debate about the forged document will change the fact that document is still a fraud, even if one of my observations is wrong.
 
Last edited:
Most people would just say "You're trying to derail" or "You're trying to change the subject". I don't think the caps are necessary.

I am sorry... I could not control my hands in face of the whole investigation made about my character, rather than more evidence to prove the supposed mass extermination plan.

I will try to avoid the CAPS outburst in the next posts.

Thank you by the advice.
 
No, I am not asking you to produce examples of people NOT making the accusation. I am asking you which is the ORIGINAL claim related to the supposed mass extermination plan.
No, you made a claim - that people have made an accusation that millions of political prisoners were murdered by the Third Reich in gas chambers.

Prove your claim.

Who was killed? How many? In which way?
Political prisoners? I don't know. You made the claim. I am asking you to substantiate it. As I read somewhere,
the burden of proof remains on the accuser.

You can't prove your claim. That is why you're playing stupid, isn't it?

I am not supposed to be a revisionist. I never admitted to be a revisionist. You are doing the assumption.

I have already answered to another user that I do not consider myself a specialist in the Holocaust matter.
LOL revisionist does not equate to "specialist in the Holocaust matter"! Quite the opposite: your not being a specialist in the Holocaust is the first thing qualifying you to be a revisionist.

You're funny.

But, of course, you're a revisionist. It is the duck test - walks like, quacks like, swims like.

That is why I am asking for the evidence.
Which you promptly ignore, when you receive it, unless there happens to be a revisionist bit on a piece of it that you can crib.

You're funny.

What I think need to be revised is the evidence presented to prove the supposed mass extermination plan, but not because I consider myself a revisionist, but just a curious persons looking for answers.
You have engaged dishonestly in this forum - creating a false post from something of mine and Matthew Ellard's. Strawmanning an accusation of millions of political prisoners murdered by gas.

Nonsense like postwar trials with no defense counsel.

Yeah, you're just curious. LOL

No, you did not provided any PRIMARY evidence.
Stop lying.

I wrote that "in this thread I have cited many primary sources showing mass extermination of Jews." Is the phrase "in this thread" above your reading comprehension ability? Or do you routinely lie?

I am scarcely going to link to various times "in this thread" I've discussed primary sources dealing with mass extermination. Just one will prove you a liar again: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7973269&postcount=9600 (Strictly speaking, in this discussion too I linked to primary sources here http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8117744&postcount=9984 and here http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8119610&postcount=10051, the former link to video of executions as well as photographs of cremations at Birkenau, latter Pressac's study with many documents included.)

I will ask again: if I did a false statement about a claim which historians do not support, what is the ORIGINAL CLAIM?

What is the ORIGINAL CLAIM which the historians support with reliable evidence?

In the supposed extermination plan executed by the Third Reich, who was killed? How many? In which way?

You indeed do not provided any response to this matter, which I had already addressed in the last post.
You can blow all the smoke you want but the topic of my post was your misstatement of what people, including historians, claim about the crimes of the National Socialists.

Until you can cite a large number of people accusing the Nazis of murdering millions of political prisoners by gas, this statement of yours
The original claim: German Third Reich had mass exterminate millions of political prisoners with gas chambers
remains a misrepresentation that you haven't even tried to defend or support.

Because you can't.
 
Last edited:
All right, I will ask them. The source you provided do not have the second page of the document. That is why I made the question.

Digitized versions of the documents can be found all over the internet fairly easily. Do you need help with Google?

Here, I'll even help you get started with finding lots of them (including a complete copy of Becker's letter to Rauff).

http://nuremberg.law.harvard.edu/php/docs_swi.php?DI=1&text=doc_anal

You really wish that questions answered...

And you really wish not to answer it.

Due your religious persistence I will look into that matter.

"Look into that matter"? Shouldn't you have done that before marking all over the document in red, claiming that the office code was "incomplete"? Or do you routinely make a habit of declaring documents to be frauds and forgeries based on things you apparently don't have a single clue about?

If you don't know what a "complete" office code should look like, how can you claim that the code on the document is incomplete? Other than the obvious, which is that you cribbed from another denier who made the claim that the code was incomplete, and you just parroted that without understanding anything about the claim, to say nothing of verifying that the claim was indeed true before uncritically reposting it here.

As I said to another user, I do not think a debate about the forged document will change the fact that document is still a fraud, even if one of my observations is wrong.

No, "one" of "you"r observations isn't wrong. All of the observations are wrong, and you didn't even know they were wrong because they aren't your observations. You merely copied them from someone else, which is why you can't answer any questions about them.
 
Where did you obtain this translation?

The translation you provided is not matching the translation I am doing from the document.

If you're using Google Translate again, I'm not surprised.

And once again it seems you're having trouble with your internet search ability. The above Harvard Law website, for instance, has it.

I made a search in the the above Internet page for the document which proves the promotion of the Third Reich official Friedrich Pradel.

I did not obtained any result.

Could you point me where in the Internet page I can find the document?

You seem to have a lot of trouble finding things on the internet. Plus, we've already had this conversation, SnakeTongue.

So, I'll just repeat that part here.

Hmmm...strange how you completely and critically accept what an uncited page on a Czech website tells you as utterly authoritative, but demand additional documentary proof when I give you the actual multiply-cited words of someone who was actually there.

How about you show me the document which proves Pradel's rank was Hauptmann at the time the document was written?
 
Oh, and while you're looking for a document saying that Pradel's rank is wrong on the March 26, 1942 memo because he was still a Hauptmann at the time, I found some more documents for you, stating that his rank at the time was Major after all.

First, there's this document, a telegram dated June 9, 1942, sent to RSHA Amt. Roem 2 D 3 KL. A-Z. HD. V. Major Pradl - Berlin [ie, RSHA Department Roman numeral 2 (that is, II) D 3, subgroup A, to the attention of/to be delivered to Major Pradl (Pradel) in Berlin] by SS-Oversturmbannfuehrer Dr. Schaefer in Belgrade. It reads:

Subject: Special-van-Saurer

The Drivers SS-Scharfuehrer GOETZ and MEYER have fulfilled their special mission and could be ordered back with the van mentioned above. In consequence of a broken rear-axle-half, transportation cannot be made by car.

Therefore I have ordered the vehicle loaded and shipped back to Berlin by railroad.

Estimated arrival between 11th and 12th June 1942. The drivers GOETZ and MEYER will escort the vehicle.

And this document, another telegram, dated June 15, 1942, sent to "II. D 3 a, Maj. Pradel" by SS-Hauptsturmfuehrer Truehe in Riga. It reads:

Subject: S-vans

A transport of Jews, which has to be treated in a special way, arrives weekly at the office of the commandant of the Security Police and the Security Service of White Ruthenia.

The three S-vans, which are there, are not sufficient for that purpose. I request assignment of another S-van (five tons). At the same time I request the shipment of twenty gas hoses for the three S-vans on hand (2 Daimond, 1 Saurer) since the ones on hand are leaky already.

Before you go scurrying off to read what Alvarez said about these documents too, you should be aware that I already know what he wrote about them (which was mostly him cribbing from Weckert's and Porter's nonsense to begin with).

And it's not online (though it is available at the ZSL archive I've already referenced to you, at Az.415 Ar-Z 220/59, Bl.260b), but when Major Friedrich Pradel was put on trial in Hannover in the 1960's, his co-defendant, Harry Wentritt, stated in his deposition that Pradel's rank was "Major", just as Dr. Becker did.

You can read the article published in Der Spiegel on May 16, 1966, about Pradel's trial, here in Der Spiegel's own online archives. And you'll note that though the Czech website you originally cited gives Pradel's SS rank wrongly as Hauptsturmfuehrer, the 1966 Der Spiegel article correctly notes that Pradel had been promoted to SS-Sturmbannfuehrer, even if (as both Becker and Wentritt, and all contemporary RSHA documents, note, he preferred to go by his non-SS rank of Major after he was promoted).
 
Last edited:
Keine Liquidierung

For his intelligence “pictorex” stands out among Codoh contributors, if only because of the flatness of the surrounding landscape. He has allowed his mind to be gnawed by a minor problem which will probably never be solved. Readers may know that David Irvin once tried to maintain that Hitler could not have known about any routine extermination of Jewish deportees – because the Fuehrer had specifically ordered that a particular trainload be exempt from extermination. Irving’s evidence for any kind of Hitler order in this matter was tenuous; his argument for Hitler’s ignorance was visibly illogical.
In his 1977 book, Irving had reproduced Heinrich Himmler's personally handwritten and very brief notes on a telephone conversation Himmler had on Nov. 30, 1941 with Reinhard Heydrich, who was in Prague at the time. In his left-hand column Himmler noted that the conversation was with Heydrich at 1:30 PM. To the right of this there are four lines that translate as follows:

Incarceration Dr. Jekelius
Alleged son Molotov.
Jewish transport from Berlin.
No liquidation

Irving’s opponents were happy to accept that “Liquidierung” referred to killing the passengers rather than - as is no less arguable – cancelling the scheduled transport itself ; but everyone agreed that the third and fourth item were in some way connected.
Pictorex’ proposal is simply to cut that knot. His idea can be found on the current front page of Codoh at the end of an ancient thread entitled “Himmler’s note infers [sic] that Hitler knew of Liquidation?” I rather expect that pictorex’ idea might remain a pure hypothesis, by which I mean a hypothesis that is prompted by evidence rather than confirmed by it.


Mr pictorex is not the only sign of intelligent life at Codoh, but the others have to be sought out. Mr Hannover and the main cohort are currently excited that Arthur Jones, a Republican candidate running for Congress, is also an overt Revisionist. Into the mainstream at last! This candidate also believes that Washington is allowing latino immigrants to set up a “Marxist country” in the southwest of the USA. “With friend like this” says Kingfisher “who needs enemies?” - a remark which the cohort finds entirely puzzling. The revisionist Kingfisher will one day be transitively disappeared from Codoh, just as I was.
 
I agree that it's entirely possible that the "no liquidation" ("keine liquidierung") line refers to something else and is not related to the mention of the transport of Jews from Berlin. The notes are too short and contextless to really say with any certainly what is being referred to.

However, pictorex's conclusion about what it does refer to (the "liquidation" of the Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia) is completely unsupported speculation. As far as I can tell from the CODOH thread, the only reason the deniers have latched onto that is because they think "liquidate" only refers to the dissolution of a company or organization, and does not mean "killing" or "execution" at all. One poster even cites from this German dictionary of foreign words to show that the German word "Liquidation" is never used outside a business context or to refer to anything other than closing down an enterprise of some sort. And that in itself is true...the German word "Liquidation" is indeed only used in a business context.

The problem, of course, is that the document doesn't use the word "Liquidation". It uses the word Liquidierung. And "liquidierung" absolutely was used by the Nazis to refer to killing and executions, especially of Jews. For example, Goebbels himself used it that way in his diary:

Es wird hier ein ziemlich barbarisches und nicht näher zu beschreibendes Verfahren angewandt, und von den Juden selbst bleibt nicht mehr viel übrig. Im großen kann man wohl feststellen, daß 60 % davon liquidiert werden müssen, während nur noch 40 % in die Arbeit eingesetzt werden können.

("A pretty barbaric procedure is being applied here, and it is not to be described in any more detail, and not much is left of the Jews themselves. In general one may conclude that 60% of them must be liquidated, while only 40% can be put to work.")

The deniers at CODOH, in other words, are proceeding from the predetermined conclusion that there was no extermination program, and grasping at any straw they can to support that predetermined conclusion by claiming that there's no way the Himmler note could refer to any kind of killing and must refer to the dissolution of an organization, and therefore can only be talking about the situation regarding Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia (or at least is most likely to be talking about that).

And that's simply not true - there's nothing at all in the document to rule out Himmler talking about "liquidierung" in the "targetted killing" sense, the same way Goebbels used the word. Sure, it's possible that Himmler could be talking about dissolving some organization, but it's also possible he was talking about the mass murder of human beings (and far more likely, since the Nazis kind of have a history of using that word when explicitly talking about the mass murder of human beings). That very meaning of the word "liquidierung" and its common use in the context of describing mass murder is, in fact, the entire reason why even deniers like Irving connected the third and fourth lines in that document in the first place, and never bothered with this "it really refers to the elimination of a Reichsprotektorat and its incorporation into the Gau system!" interpretation.

Supporting the interpretation that the third and fourth lines in Himmler's notes are connected is the fact that the very next day after these lines were written, Himmler and Heydrich spoke again specifically about the executions of Jews in Riga transported there from Berlin (and hence the most likely "Jewish transport from Berlin" referred to in the third line), and that evening Himmler issued an order to Friedrich Jeckeln in Riga, the SS man in charge of the Einsatzgruppen and who was responsible for the massacre of Berlin Jews in Riga, ordering Jeckeln not to do things like massacre Jewish transports on his own initiative, but only per Himmler's specific orders and guidelines. Historian Richard Evans has noted this was because executing people sent right from the capital of Germany was far too public and visible (and therefore shouldn't be done without express permission), while the execution of locals was far less likely to cause to any kind of public notice, and therefore could continue to be carried out by Jeckeln's Einsatzgruppen without the same sort of supervision being required from Berlin.

Pictorex is indeed apparently a cut above your average CODOH denier, but he's not investigating any new neutral historical interpretation of the Himmler document. He's merely come up with a novel way for deniers to still pretend that the Nazis weren't slaughtering people (and, more, documenting it) after Irving's attempt to spin it away failed so miserably.
 
Last edited:
Maybe I am missing something but if there is no program of extermination going on, why would you make a note of "Keine Liquidierung" if "no liquidations" is the standard policy already?
 
Maybe I am missing something but if there is no program of extermination going on, why would you make a note of "Keine Liquidierung" if "no liquidations" is the standard policy already?

That's exactly why deniers are so keen to prove that it's talking about something else entirely, something that has nothing to do with mass executions. Because otherwise that's extremely problematic for the deniers' cause.
 
No, you made a claim - that people have made an accusation that millions of political prisoners were murdered by the Third Reich in gas chambers.

Prove your claim.

Political prisoners? I don't know. You made the claim. I am asking you to substantiate it. As I read somewhere,

You can't prove your claim. That is why you're playing stupid, isn't it?

No.

I am only asking you to show why my claim is WRONG!

It seems you cannot prove that...

Since I have already provided references to support my claim and you have already noted that I am WRONG, the burden of proof remains on you to prove that you are RIGHT.

I will repeat: If my claim is WRONG, which is the RIGHT claim?

Would you provide a reference to the RIGHT claim?

Or you will keep ignoring the fact the burden of proof is on you?

LOL revisionist does not equate to "specialist in the Holocaust matter"! Quite the opposite: your not being a specialist in the Holocaust is the first thing qualifying you to be a revisionist.

You're funny.

But, of course, you're a revisionist. It is the duck test - walks like, quacks like, swims like.

Which you promptly ignore, when you receive it, unless there happens to be a revisionist bit on a piece of it that you can crib.

You're funny.

Funny is to notice that you evaded the same questions I made directly to you in the last three posts, as well the fact that you type like a expert on "deniers".

You have engaged dishonestly in this forum - creating a false post from something of mine and Matthew Ellard's.

Right, but you cannot prove that... Why? Because you did not noticed that I just decided to answer different enquires in the same post.

Funny is realize that you are more concerned with how I reply to posts than the the matter in debate, as well more concerned if I am a "honest" person rather than show where my claim is wrong.

Strawmanning an accusation of millions of political prisoners murdered by gas.

Again: if the millions murdered by gas were not political prisioners, who they where?

Nonsense like postwar trials with no defense counsel.

I said "no right to defence"... Anyway, I will left that debate to another thread.

Yeah, you're just curious. LOL

Stop lying.

I wrote that "in this thread I have cited many primary sources showing mass extermination of Jews." Is the phrase "in this thread" above your reading comprehension ability? Or do you routinely lie?

You seem confuse primary source with primary evidence... Primary evidence only ANTPogo provided.

I am scarcely going to link to various times "in this thread" I've discussed primary sources dealing with mass extermination. Just one will prove you a liar again: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7973269&postcount=9600 (Strictly speaking, in this discussion too I linked to primary sources here http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8117744&postcount=9984 and here http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8119610&postcount=10051, the former link to video of executions as well as photographs of cremations at Birkenau, latter Pressac's study with many documents included.)

Do you remember that I have been asking for evidence of HOMICIDAL GAS CHAMBERS, not CREMATORIUMS?

Anyway, I will look into that references to verify if there is any PRIMARY evidence.

You can blow all the smoke you want but the topic of my post was your misstatement of what people, including historians, claim about the crimes of the National Socialists.

Until you can cite a large number of people accusing the Nazis of murdering millions of political prisoners by gas, this statement of yours remains a misrepresentation that you haven't even tried to defend or support.

Because you can't.

In no moment I typed that "historians" claims the claim I made.

I made a generic claim without to refer to anyone as the claimer and you stated that is wrong.

Therefore, I am waiting to you show why my claim is WRONG and what is the RIGHT claim.
 
Digitized versions of the documents can be found all over the internet fairly easily. Do you need help with Google?

Here, I'll even help you get started with finding lots of them (including a complete copy of Becker's letter to Rauff).

http://nuremberg.law.harvard.edu/php/docs_swi.php?DI=1&text=doc_anal

Thank you very much. There is a good source of documents.

"Look into that matter"? Shouldn't you have done that before marking all over the document in red, claiming that the office code was "incomplete"? Or do you routinely make a habit of declaring documents to be frauds and forgeries based on things you apparently don't have a single clue about?

No, I do not have.

If you don't know what a "complete" office code should look like, how can you claim that the code on the document is incomplete? Other than the obvious, which is that you cribbed from another denier who made the claim that the code was incomplete, and you just parroted that without understanding anything about the claim, to say nothing of verifying that the claim was indeed true before uncritically reposting it here.

Well, in fact I know how it should be.

Do you?

No, "one" of "you"r observations isn't wrong. All of the observations are wrong, and you didn't even know they were wrong because they aren't your observations. You merely copied them from someone else, which is why you can't answer any questions about them.

I know, but I think you just assume that I do not know.

By assuming that I do not know do not prove the fraud is not fraud.

Have you even care to prove that document is not a fraud, rather than try to prove that I had copied my analysis?

That document is not even the original...

Why you insist to support forgery?
 
Well, in fact I know how it should be.

No, you don't. Because if you did, you'd be able to answer my questions. The fact that you're so desperately (and repeatedly, for something like two weeks now) avoiding what should be a completely simple and straightforward answer if you were being truthful is quite telling.

Not to mention the fact that you already admitted that you would have to "look into that matter" when I repeated my questions to you yet again. Because, again, if you did know the answers to my questions, as you now claim you do, you'd never have said something like that.

I know, but I think you just assume that I do not know.

If you know, then answer my questions.

By assuming that I do not know do not prove the fraud is not fraud.

No, your complete and total inability to show that you know what you're talking about when it comes to your claims (or, rather, the claims made by someone else that you merely copied) prove the fraud is not fraud.

Have you even care to prove that document is not a fraud, rather than try to prove that I had copied my analysis?

If you think it's a fraud, then the burden of proof is on you to show that. Which something that you've apparently been completely incapable of doing thus far.

Why you insist to support forgery?

Because it's not a forgery, and you've completely and utterly failed, in just about the most miserably pathetic fashion possible, at showing otherwise.
 
Oh, and while you're looking for a document saying that Pradel's rank is wrong on the March 26, 1942 memo because he was still a Hauptmann at the time, I found some more documents for you, stating that his rank at the time was Major after all.

First, there's this document, a telegram dated June 9, 1942, sent to RSHA Amt. Roem 2 D 3 KL. A-Z. HD. V. Major Pradl - Berlin [ie, RSHA Department Roman numeral 2 (that is, II) D 3, subgroup A, to the attention of/to be delivered to Major Pradl (Pradel) in Berlin] by SS-Oversturmbannfuehrer Dr. Schaefer in Belgrade. It reads:



And this document, another telegram, dated June 15, 1942, sent to "II. D 3 a, Maj. Pradel" by SS-Hauptsturmfuehrer Truehe in Riga. It reads:

And it's not online (though it is available at the ZSL archive I've already referenced to you, at Az.415 Ar-Z 220/59, Bl.260b), but when Major Friedrich Pradel was put on trial in Hannover in the 1960's, his co-defendant, Harry Wentritt, stated in his deposition that Pradel's rank was "Major", just as Dr. Becker did.

You can read the article published in Der Spiegel on May 16, 1966, about Pradel's trial, here in Der Spiegel's own online archives. And you'll note that though the Czech website you originally cited gives Pradel's SS rank wrongly as Hauptsturmfuehrer, the 1966 Der Spiegel article correctly notes that Pradel had been promoted to SS-Sturmbannfuehrer, even if (as both Becker and Wentritt, and all contemporary RSHA documents, note, he preferred to go by his non-SS rank of Major after he was promoted).

Thank you very much!

The quality of the images are good enough for a close analysis.

There are very good PRIMARY evidence which I can myself look into.

I will verify the documents.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom