Merged General Holocaust denial discussion thread

[SnakeTongue]

Why is that particular testimony of a Jew who visited the camps after the war believable, and all the testimonies of the Jews and Nazis who were in the camps during the war and saw the gas chambers unbelievable?

It is not a matter of belief, but of credibility supported by reliable evidence.

 

[SnakeTongue]

And here you are moving the goalpost again! There is no evidence that you will accept. At least be honest about that, why not?

Your impossibility into answer the questions do not imply I had refuted the links provided.

 

[SnakeTongue]

You avoided addressing your failures and posted more tripe, and the sources debunk your failed Holocaust denial. You don't understand logistics and scale. When you become a supervisor, you might gain some insight into a complex system, or not. Where do you get all your knowledge on the Holocaust? Oh, google. Never mind.

You don't know much about the Holocaust. Go ahead, be the big person and make fun of people killed. You are doing a great job. To notch.

Just like a Holocaust denier to provide proof against their idiotic failed delusions. Did you read your sources? Are you trying to debunk yourself?
You posted evidence against your claims!? What is up? Are you making a joke of Holocaust deniers? Is this a parody?

Here is that dime...

What an avalanche of questions...

You tell me. Just do not forgot to provide the evidence.

 

[TSR]

Could you point out where in the countless manuscripts I could find a legitimated document with Adolf Hitler signature ordering the execution of a mass extermination plan against the Jews?

Can you point me to a document signed by Hitler ordering the invasion of the Soviet Union?

Or didn't that happen either?

The invasion of France?

An order to form an alliance with Japan?

 

[LemmyCaution]

THE HOLY BOOK CALLED HOLOCAUST ENCYCLOPEDIA!



http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005220

AMEN.

Except, of course, in the first place what you quote so flippantly doesn't support what you wrote earlier.

You wrote:

The original claim: German Third Reich had mass exterminate millions of political prisoners with gas chambers.

Your quotation says that

The Nazis constantly searched for more efficient means of extermination. At the Auschwitz camp in Poland, they conducted experiments with Zyklon B (previously used for fumigation) by gassing some 600 Soviet prisoners of war and 250 ill prisoners in September 1941. Zyklon B pellets, converted to lethal gas when exposed to air. They proved the quickest gassing method and were chosen as the means of mass murder at Auschwitz. At the height of the deportations, up to 6,000 Jews were gassed each day at Auschwitz.

It never mentions political prisoners.

In the second place, your "holy book" and "amen" nonsense do not help your case, especially when you write something so stupid as millions of political prisoners were executed and follow it up on the first experimental gassing at Auschwitz and a reference to Jews being gassed there.

 

[LemmyCaution]

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/subject_menus/imt.asp

The manuscripts of the International Military Tribunal are vast...

Could you point out where in the countless manuscripts I could find a legitimated document with Adolf Hitler signature ordering the execution of a mass extermination plan against the Jews?

Could you point out where a historian has claimed that such a document exists?

 

[LemmyCaution]

The analysed document is forged and was misinterpreted from a biased translation to prove the claim.

If the document was forged, what does a misinterpreted, biased translation have to do with anything?

Leaving that aside, were other documents which historians use to prove events during the Holocaust forged? Or just this one?

 

[Border Reiver]

There's a fair amount of evidence that has been able to prove that people committed the acts that are part of the Holocaust. I'll use some of the Canadian caselaw:

R. V. Finta Scroll on down to the "Facts" section of the judgement, right after you get through some of the source material used in the case

Canada v. Oberlander

R. V. Pawlowski

You can check Canlii for more. All proven in court beyond a reasonable doubt.

 

[A'isha]

Since you provided an extensive list of documents, all from the same source, I will produce short analysis for each one. In the analysis I will consider the review presented with the documents as part of the evidence. Therefore I will address not only the document, but as well the allegation of a mass extermination plan executed by the Third Reich.

You're not off to a very good start. Pretty much your entire post appears to be cribbed from yet another denier source, Santiago Alvarez' The Gas Vans: A Critical Investigation.

The internet page reviewer uses the document to prove that vehicles equipped with a gas chamber were part of a supposed mass extermination plan performed by the Germans during the Second World War.

No, the "internet page reviewer" uses the document as an example of one of the many documents that do prove that gassing vehicles were part of a very definite mass mass extermination plan performed by the Germans during the Second World War. As we shall see.

4. Wrong translation of the word “Sonderwager” presented in the Gord McFee translation (sample 2) [6]

5. Wrong translation of the word “Hilfsmitteln” presented in the Gord McFee translation (sample 3) [7]

This has to be one of the dumbest arguments I've seen in this thread. And considering I've dealt with the likes of Saggy and Clayton Moore, that's saying something. You're seriously arguing a "mistranslation" based on the fact that you ran these words through Google Translate?!

"Sonderwagen", "Spezialwagen", "Sonderfahrzeug", or "S-wagen" were all common terms in German documents for the gas vans used in executions. I'm not even sure what your problem with McFee's translation of "Sonderwagen" is, since nothing in Google Translate contradicts it. Is the translation "special vehicles" more to your liking, perhaps?

[EDIT: Ooops...this part accidentally got cut out of my post. "Hilfsmitteln", as the Holocaust History page notes, was also used in another document, and much more explicitly, too.

"Nach Sachlage bestehen keine Bedenken, wenn diejenigen Juden, die nicht arbeitsfähig sind, mit den Brackschen Hilfsmitteln beseitigt werden." ("As things now are, there are no objections if the Jews who are not capable of work, are eliminated with the Brackian remedy.")

Go ahead and pick the translation of your choice for the word McFee translates as "remedy", and plug it into that sentence, and tell me what you think it's saying the Germans are doing to those Jews who are unable to work.]

7. Officer “Pradel” rank is wrongly identified as “Major” (sample 3). [9]

Nope, he's utterly, 100% accurately identified as a "Major". Your source says Pradel's rank was "SS-Hauptsturmführer und Hauptmann der Schutzpolizei". Which it was until he was promoted to "Major der Schutzpolizei".

And, as August Becker, the man assigned to inspect the gassing vans, noted, Pradel preferred to be addressed by the rank Major: "Stellvertreter von Rauff war der damalige Hauptmann und spätere Major Pradel. Pradel hatte zwar auch einen SS-Angleichungsdienstgrad, er nannte sich aber Major," Becker said in his statement of 26.3.60 (9 AR Z 220/59, vol. I, p. 194 ff.).

Ernst Klee quoted this in his book „Schöne Zeiten“ -- Judenmord aus der Sicht der Täter und Gaffer, which Deborah Burnstone translated for the English publication as "Rauff’s deputy at the time was the then Hauptmann Pradel, who later became a Major. Although Pradel also had an equivalent SS rank he called himself Major."

In view of the examination 1, 2, 3 and 7, the letter cannot be considered as legitimate proof of identification. Lack of the necessary information which serves exclusively to identify the letter characteristics is fundamental to cross the relevant information with other evidences. Therefore the letter cannot prove the involvement of the officers “Rauf” and “Pradel” with the alleged claim.

Becker is important not just because he recalled how Pradel liked to be addressed. Becker also is an integral part of these "other evidences" that you either have no clue about, or are deliberately ignoring in an attempt to divorce this document from its context among those "other evidences".

For instance, on May 16, 1942, Becker wrote a full report to Rauff about the operation of the gas vans (you can view images of the originals here), where he says,

The overhauling of vans by groups D and C is finished. While the vans of the first series can also be put into action if the weather is not too bad, the vans of the second series (Saurer) Stop completely in rainy weather. If it has rained for instance for only one half hour, the van cannot be used because it simply skids away. It can only be used in absolutely dry weather. It is only a question now whether the van can only be used standing at the place of execution. First the van has to be brought to that place, which is possible only in good weather. The place of execution is usually 10 to 15 km away from the highways and is difficult of access because of its location; in damp or wet weather it is not accessible at all. If the persons to be executed are driven or led to that place, then they realize immediately what is going on and get restless, which is to be avoided as far as possible. There is only one way left; to load them at the collecting point and to drive them to the spot.

I ordered the vans of group D to be camouflaged as housetrailers by putting one set of window shutters on each side of the small van and two on each side of the larger vans, such as one often sees on farm houses in the country. The vans became so well-known, that not only the authorities but also the civilian population called the van 'death' van', as soon as one of these vehicles appeared. It is my opinion the van cannot be kept secret for any length of time, not even camouflaged".

Because of the rough terrain and the indescribable road and highway conditions the caulkings and rivets loosen in the course of time. I was asked if in such cases the vans should be brought to Berlin for repair. Transportation to Berlin would be much too expensive and would demand too much fuel. In order to save those expenses. I ordered them to have smaller leaks soldered and if that should no longer be possible, to notify Berlin immediately by radio, that Pol.Nr. is out of order. Besides that I ordered that during application of gas all the men were to be kept as far away from the vans as possible, so they should not suffer damage to their health by the gas which eventually would escape. I should like to take this opportunity to bring the following to your attention: several commands have had the unloading after the application of gas done by their own men. I brought to the attention of the commanders of those S.K. concerned the immense psychological injuries and damages to their health which that work can have for those men, even if not immediately, 'at least later on. The men complained to me about headaches which appeared after each unloading, Nevertheless they don't want to change the orders, because they are afraid prisoners called for that work, could use an opportune moment to flee. To protect the men from those damages, I request orders be issued accordingly.

The application of gas usually is not undertaken correctly. In order to come to an end as fast as possible, the driver presses the accelerator to the fullest extent. By doing that the persons to be executed suffer death from suffocation and not death by dozing off as was planned. My directions now have proved that by correct adjustment of the levers death comes faster and the prisoners fall asleep peacefully. Distorted faces and excretions, such as could be seen before, are no longer noticed.

Today I shall continue my journey to group, B, where I can be reached with further news.

Signed: Dr. Becker, SS Untersturmfuehrer

And before you perform a "fraud" analysis on this document too (as Ingrid Weckert and Thomas Kues have tried and failed miserably to do), you might be interested to know that Rauff himself acknowledged the above as an actual and real message that he received from Becker.

 

[SanityGap]

You type so much and do not provide one single piece of evidence for your claims.

A photograph showing a group of prisoners of Stutthof concentration camp


[qimg]http://www.poland.pl/f/img/dokumenty/oboz.jpg[/qimg]

You see? I just hope that all well groomed and healthy men had a brothel in the camp, like in Auschwitz:

That photo of Stutthof was taken just after completion in 1939 at which time it was a civilian interrment camp under the local Polish police.
Some military research you are doing.
I suggest you look at the history of Stutthof after 1941.

 

[A'isha]

Addendum to my post above: Gord McFee was the translator of the March 26, 1942 Rauff document, and used the word "remedy" where the German original used the word "Hilfsmitteln".

However, while McFee additionally translated the October 25, 1941 Wetzel document, and again used the word "remedy" where the German original used the word "Hilfsmitteln", the Holocaust History page about this document also includes an additional translation. This other translation is the original one done for the US Office of Chief Counsel, by Arthur L. Petersen (his certification of the translation and signature is at the bottom of the original translated document).

Petersen, needless to say, also used the word "remedy" where the German original used the word "Hilfsmitteln".

I suggest to you, SnakeTongue, that you might not want to rely on the machine-translation of Google Translate to help you figure out whether a certain document is forged or not.

 

[SnakeTongue]

You're not off to a very good start. Pretty much your entire post appears to be cribbed from yet another denier source, Santiago Alvarez' The Gas Vans: A Critical Investigation.

Feel free to prove that I made that.

No, the "internet page reviewer" uses the document as an example of one of the many documents that do prove that gassing vehicles were part of a very definite mass mass extermination plan performed by the Germans during the Second World War. As we shall see.

You only repeated what I argued with few more words.

This has to be one of the dumbest arguments I've seen in this thread. And considering I've dealt with the likes of Saggy and Clayton Moore, that's saying something. You're seriously arguing a "mistranslation" based on the fact that you ran these words through Google Translate?!

Here your consider my argument dumb because I used Google Translate...

"Sonderwagen", "Spezialwagen", "Sonderfahrzeug", or "S-wagen" were all common terms in German documents for the gas vans used in executions. I'm not even sure what your problem with McFee's translation of "Sonderwagen" is, since nothing in Google Translate contradicts it.

...and here you agree that Google Translate is acceptable.

Double standards.

[EDIT: Ooops...this part accidentally got cut out of my post. "Hilfsmitteln", as the Holocaust History page notes, was also used in another document, and much more explicitly, too.

"Nach Sachlage bestehen keine Bedenken, wenn diejenigen Juden, die nicht arbeitsfähig sind, mit den Brackschen Hilfsmitteln beseitigt werden." ("As things now are, there are no objections if the Jews who are not capable of work, are eliminated with the Brackian remedy.")

The presence of the original mistranslated word in other documents do not prove the document I analysed is credible.

Accept your argument would be equivalent to accept the bible stories really happened because the word Jehovah is present in different books.

Go ahead and pick the translation of your choice for the word McFee translates as "remedy", and plug it into that sentence, and tell me what you think it's saying the Germans are doing to those Jews who are unable to work.

You are doing a biased suggestion. In no moment the letter address the "Germans doing to those Jews who are unable to work."

Nope, he's utterly, 100% accurately identified as a "Major". Your source says Pradel's rank was "SS-Hauptsturmführer und Hauptmann der Schutzpolizei". Which it was until he was promoted to "Major der Schutzpolizei".

Show the document which proves when and by who "Pradel" was promoted and I will correct my analysis.

And, as August Becker, the man assigned to inspect the gassing vans, noted, Pradel preferred to be addressed by the rank Major: "Stellvertreter von Rauff war der damalige Hauptmann und spätere Major Pradel. Pradel hatte zwar auch einen SS-Angleichungsdienstgrad, er nannte sich aber Major," Becker said in his statement of 26.3.60 (9 AR Z 220/59, vol. I, p. 194 ff.).

Ernst Klee quoted this in his book „Schöne Zeiten“ -- Judenmord aus der Sicht der Täter und Gaffer, which Deborah Burnstone translated for the English publication as "Rauff’s deputy at the time was the then Hauptmann Pradel, who later became a Major. Although Pradel also had an equivalent SS rank he called himself Major."

Provide documents which clearly support your claim.

Quotes from books at sale in Amazon internet page does not support your claim.

Becker is important not just because he recalled how Pradel liked to be addressed. Becker also is an integral part of these "other evidences" that you either have no clue about, or are deliberately ignoring in an attempt to divorce this document from its context among those "other evidences".

For instance, on May 16, 1942, Becker wrote a full report to Rauff about the operation of the gas vans (you can view images of the originals here), where he says,

And before you perform a "fraud" analysis on this document too (as Ingrid Weckert and Thomas Kues have tried and failed miserably to do), you might be interested to know that Rauff himself acknowledged the above as an actual and real message that he received from Becker.

Good sources.

I will address the above document in the future.

Conclusion:

You did not provided enough evidence which proves my analysis wrong, as well you also ignored to address the part which I demonstrate the fraud (examination 6a and 6b).

Therefore I stand with my analysis.

 

[SnakeTongue]

That photo of Stutthof was taken just after completion in 1939 at which time it was a civilian interrment camp under the local Polish police.
Some military research you are doing.
I suggest you look at the history of Stutthof after 1941.

How do you know when the picture was shot if there is no date presented?

 

[Clayton Moore]

For instance, on May 16, 1942, Becker wrote a full report to Rauff about the operation of the gas vans (you can view images of the originals here), where he says,

Quote:
The overhauling of vans by groups D and C is finished. While the vans of the first series can also be put into action if the weather is not too bad, the vans of the second series (Saurer) Stop completely in rainy weather. If it has rained for instance for only one half hour, the van cannot be used because it simply skids away. It can only be used in absolutely dry weather. It is only a question now whether the van can only be used standing at the place of execution. First the van has to be brought to that place, which is possible only in good weather. The place of execution is usually 10 to 15 km away from the highways and is difficult of access because of its location; in damp or wet weather it is not accessible at all. If the persons to be executed are driven or led to that place, then they realize immediately what is going on and get restless, which is to be avoided as far as possible. There is only one way left; to load them at the collecting point and to drive them to the spot.

I ordered the vans of group D to be camouflaged as housetrailers by putting one set of window shutters on each side of the small van and two on each side of the larger vans, such as one often sees on farm houses in the country. The vans became so well-known, that not only the authorities but also the civilian population called the van 'death' van', as soon as one of these vehicles appeared. It is my opinion the van cannot be kept secret for any length of time, not even camouflaged".

Because of the rough terrain and the indescribable road and highway conditions the caulkings and rivets loosen in the course of time. I was asked if in such cases the vans should be brought to Berlin for repair. Transportation to Berlin would be much too expensive and would demand too much fuel. In order to save those expenses. I ordered them to have smaller leaks soldered and if that should no longer be possible, to notify Berlin immediately by radio, that Pol.Nr. is out of order. Besides that I ordered that during application of gas all the men were to be kept as far away from the vans as possible, so they should not suffer damage to their health by the gas which eventually would escape. I should like to take this opportunity to bring the following to your attention: several commands have had the unloading after the application of gas done by their own men. I brought to the attention of the commanders of those S.K. concerned the immense psychological injuries and damages to their health which that work can have for those men, even if not immediately, 'at least later on. The men complained to me about headaches which appeared after each unloading, Nevertheless they don't want to change the orders, because they are afraid prisoners called for that work, could use an opportune moment to flee. To protect the men from those damages, I request orders be issued accordingly.

The application of gas usually is not undertaken correctly. In order to come to an end as fast as possible, the driver presses the accelerator to the fullest extent. By doing that the persons to be executed suffer death from suffocation and not death by dozing off as was planned. My directions now have proved that by correct adjustment of the levers death comes faster and the prisoners fall asleep peacefully. Distorted faces and excretions, such as could be seen before, are no longer noticed.

Today I shall continue my journey to group, B, where I can be reached with further news.

Signed: Dr. Becker, SS Untersturmfuehrer

Isn't Becker saying the van initiative doesn't work, isn't feasible?

 

[SnakeTongue]

Addendum to my post above: Gord McFee was the translator of the March 26, 1942 Rauff document, and used the word "remedy" where the German original used the word "Hilfsmitteln".

However, while McFee additionally translated the October 25, 1941 Wetzel document, and again used the word "remedy" where the German original used the word "Hilfsmitteln", the Holocaust History page about this document also includes an additional translation. This other translation is the original one done for the US Office of Chief Counsel, by Arthur L. Petersen (his certification of the translation and signature is at the bottom of the original translated document).

Petersen, needless to say, also used the word "remedy" where the German original used the word "Hilfsmitteln".

I suggest to you, SnakeTongue, that you might not want to rely on the machine-translation of Google Translate to help you figure out whether a certain document is forged or not.

That only proves how much biased was the translations.

 

[SnakeTongue]

Can you point me to a document signed by Hitler ordering the invasion of the Soviet Union?

Or didn't that happen either?

The invasion of France?

An order to form an alliance with Japan?

No, I cannot because this debate is not about invasions, but about a supposed mass extermination plan performed by the Third Reich against millions of people.

I am not contesting if invasions happened or not.

After all, even if there is no document signed by Adolf Hitler to invade nations, the forensic evidence left by such events is overwhelming, which is not the case of the supposed "holocaust" event.

That explain why is so easy to find reliable information about military equipments than supposed homicidal gas chambers.

 

[Wroclaw]

Isn't Becker saying the van initiative doesn't work, isn't feasible?

Which is why it was eventually scrapped in favor of stationary gas chambers.

 

[Wroclaw]

No, I cannot because this debate is not about invasions, but about a supposed mass extermination plan performed by the Third Reich against millions of people.

I am not contesting if invasions happened or not.

Your problem, here at least, seems to be that you're unable to see that your own standard of evidence fails when applied to virtually any other situation, particularly ones in which written, signed orders would be even more important, given the standard you're implying.

After all, even if there is no document signed by Adolf Hitler to invade nations, the forensic evidence left by such events is overwhelming, which is not the case of the supposed "holocaust" event.

Wrong again, Bob.

 

[A'isha]

Feel free to prove that I made that.

Okay. You copied from Alvarez' list of criticisms, in the exact same order he had listed them, and merely rearranged some of the wording. The only new thing you added is the ridiculous "Google Translate" argument.

- Your first point was "Sending office code in the top right corner is not complete".

Alvarez's second point was "the name of the sending office is incomplete: instead of 'II D 3' it only states 'II D'."

- Your second point was "Letter serial number in the top right corner is identified with handwriting".

Alvarez' fourth point was "The letter's serial no. '167/42g' is handwritten, not typed".

- Your sixth point was "The paragraph starting with '2)' was inserted after the original letter was finished", and has two sub-points underneath it, "Slight rotation of the paragraph line when compared with the previous part of the letter" and "The paragraph is overwriting the original abbreviation 'I.A.' used in the end of the letter."

Alvarez' entire seventh point reads "The paragraph starting with '2.)' was typed (squeezed in over the 'I.A.' line) after the paper had been removed from the machine, resulting in it being shifted and slightly rotated."

- And, finally, your seventh point was "Officer 'Pradel' rank is wrongly identified as 'Major'.

Alvarez' ninth point was "Friedrich Pradel was not a major but rather an SS-Hauptsturmfueher (equivalent to a captain)."

Here your consider my argument dumb because I used Google Translate...

To be fair, I only consider it dumb because it is dumb.

...and here you agree that Google Translate is acceptable.

No, I merely said that not only are you wrong to rely on Google Translate, Google Translate doesn't even contradict McFee's translation, despite you claiming it does. Which makes you doubly wrong.

The presence of the original mistranslated word in other documents do not prove the document I analysed is credible.

It certainly proves your accusation that it's been mistranslated isn't credible, since the same word has been translated the same way for sixty years now.

Accept your argument would be equivalent to accept the bible stories really happened because the word Jehovah is present in different books.

No, it'd be like you trying to argue that the word "Jehovah" doesn't actually refer to the God of the Hebrews in the books of the Bible, despite being shown that the word is always translated that way in the various books of the Bible that it appears in.

You are doing a biased suggestion. In no moment the letter address the "Germans doing to those Jews who are unable to work."

That is a massively weak dodge. Your accusation that McFee mistranslated "Hilfsmitteln" is just plain wrong, as shown by even a cursory glance at other documents produced by the same group German officers who were talking about the same thing.

I also like how you've gone from "surely the Germans left tons of documentation about gassing" to "woah, I'm only looking at one document, stop showing me all these other documents about the same thing."

This is how history works, SnakeTongue. Especially when you're trying to argue that a certain document is fake based on information contained in it.

Show the document which proves when and by who "Pradel" was promoted and I will correct my analysis.

Hmmm...strange how you completely and critically accept what an uncited page on a Czech website tells you as utterly authoritative, but demand additional documentary proof when I give you the actual multiply-cited words of someone who was actually there.

How about you show me the document which proves Pradel's rank was Hauptmann at the time the document was written?

Provide documents which clearly support your claim.

You first.

Quotes from books at sale in Amazon internet page does not support your claim.

So go look it up in the Zentrale Stelle der Landesjustizverwaltungen archives yourself. I even gave you the exact reference.

Or do you really think that because it's not on the internet, it didn't happen?

I will address the above document in the future.

...just as soon as you look up what other deniers have said about it so you can repeat it here.

Conclusion:

You did not provided enough evidence which proves my analysis wrong, as well you also ignored to address the part which I demonstrate the fraud (examination 6a and 6b).

You didn't "demonstrate" anything, you simply repeated what someone else claimed proved fraud, but which does no such thing.

 

[TSR]

No, I cannot because this debate is not about invasions, but about a supposed mass extermination plan performed by the Third Reich against millions of people.

I am not contesting if invasions happened or not.

After all, even if there is no document signed by Adolf Hitler to invade nations, the forensic evidence left by such events is overwhelming, which is not the case of the supposed "holocaust" event.

That explain why is so easy to find reliable information about military equipments than supposed homicidal gas chambers.

No, *this* part of this thread is about your double standards as regards evidence.

If there was no signed order for any of those other things, why do you expect one for the Final Solution?

And you are just flat out wrong about the evidence for that mass extermination because of that double standard.

Tell me -- why was the young lady in my avatar arrested by the Nazis in the Netherlands and shipped back to Germany, where she died? What about the close to 500k Hungarian Jews who can be documented as having been sent to Auschwitz, with no documentation of their ever going anywhere else? What about the traces of Cyanide found in the rooms testified to have been used as gas chambers -- and the lack of those traces elsewhere in the camps? What about all of those Nazis who testified to knowing about the extermination -- whose only defense was either "but I didn't participate" or "I was just following orders"?